Cultural Changes - Proposed Change Examples

[Twistagain]

I agree some HP should come off the symbol, but some of it needs to be added to the armor set.

Take 80 Hp from 75 symbol, add 40hp to 75 armor. (net -40)
Take 100hp from 80 symbol, add 60hp to 80 armor. (net -40)

This sounds like trying to "pass-the-buck" down to casual players. It's hard enough for us to get the components/plat to get the cultural, and now, instead of making the armor/symbol better, you want to make it worse?

Frankly, casuals have been walked on since raiders started raiding. This would just be insulting. I understand that mid-tier raiders don't want the changes that may or may not be coming. I understand that high-end raiders don't want competition. I don't necessarily agree/disagree with either of those points...but PLEASE don't kill the casuals in the crossfire.

[Zopharr]

I don’t think there needs to be a nerf for various reasons, but if there is one I’d propose:

1. Go with the elaborate/elegant and emminent/exalted/sublime stats proposed by Ngreth

2. Go with the slot 12 aug essentially as proposed by Ngreth (At least the AC wasn’t nerfed.) (Yes, I'm a tank)

3. Increase the per-boss mob drop rate for augs from TSS/TBS/SOF to at least match Demi. (Maybe my guild is just having bad luck, but the drop rate in FC seems to be a lot less than it was in Demi/TOB)

4. Increase the AC on the 75 armor to be closer to midway between 70 and 80, rather than just +2/+3 AC over elaborate. This would be about 60-70 points over the set.

5. Add in groupable slot 12s

Rationale:

1. Nerfing the slot 11 augs hits mid-tier raiders and groupers; nerfing the slot 12 augs limits the hit to mid-tier raiders. While misery loves company, if I’m going to take a hit of X HP regardless, I don’t see a reason to have it hit more folks rather than less. If

2. Increasing the drop rate on slot 12 augs will give folks wearing cultural the option to continue to upgrade their gear - and in the process, over time recoup most of the HP lost in the slot 12 nerf. So this would, over time, help mitigate the effects of the nerf.

Right now, based on what my guild has seen (a grand total of one serpent shard), it looks like 80/80/slot 12 effectively dead end’s with last bloods at current drop rates - folks can farm TSS or Solteris for years, and not come anywhere close to replacing last bloods. This would keep cultural/slot 12 open as an option through SOF, and hopefully beyond. (If SOE wants to preach sets, they need to have the shards to make the sets drop.)

3. Slower scaling up of the seals may make it easier to accommodate upgraded cultural armor if the next expansion if they decide to continue cultural, as they are likely to be more concerned about balance for raiders than for groupers.

4. Increasing the AC on the 75 armor by 60-70 points would make the 75/75 set close to TBS Praetorian gear with a powersource. Praetorian would still have an edge in overall AC/HO as well as in effects. So for groupers, the 75 armor could be a viable alternative for entering the SOF group game, as well as being a decent upgrade for mid-tier raiders who aren’t able to get elegant - which I assume is quite a few, looking at my guild.

Groupable slot 12s...just because. Give groupers an option other than Warped Steel. Choice is good.

* * *

I don’t think there needs to be a nerf, for various reasons. If there is one, however, I’d prefer it to be along the lines above.

Garshok

[Maevenniia]

only problem with that Garshok is that casters get hosed by those proposed changes, AC doesn't matter to casters, its mana & hps & focii that do matter, and the Seals always have had inferior focii to the equivalent raid gear that drops in teh same content....

so Ngreth's proposal and your addendums make the cultural much worse for casters, overall.

~~~

I on't believe a nerf is required AT ALL at this point, the decreased drop rates have reduced teh amount of armor being created, correcting the imbala caused when all the components were dropping plentifully before SOF even launched.... the game has not imploded because people are wearing cultural, no content is being skipped, old players were in fact COMING BACK to the game because cultural meant they didn't have to spend weeks "catching up" to their old friends...

Leave it alone. Maybe addjust the AC so it scales better from bazu to faycite, but that's IT.

[Zopharr]

only problem with that Garshok is that casters get hosed by those proposed changes, AC doesn't matter to casters, its mana & hps & focii that do matter, and the Seals always have had inferior focii to the equivalent raid gear that drops in teh same content....

so Ngreth's proposal and your addendums make the cultural much worse for casters, overall.

~~~

I don't believe a nerf is required AT ALL at this point, the decreased drop rates have reduced teh amount of armor being created, correcting the imbalance caused when all the components were dropping plentifully before SOF even launched.... the game has not imploded because people are wearing cultural, no content is being skipped, old players were in fact COMING BACK to the game because cultural meant they didn't have to spend weeks "catching up" to their old friends...

Leave it alone. Maybe addjust the AC so it scales better from bazu to faycite, but that's IT.

Maevennia,

I guess looking at it, I don't see any difference between nerfing the exalted/sublime augs by 100HP/mana or nerfing the slot 12 augs by 110 HP/mana, other than a) the nerf to exalted/sublime hits a lot more folks and b) yes, 10 HP/mana (which I guess I may discount more than a caster). Is there more that I am missing regarding nerfing symbols vs. seals?

I.E., notwithstanding distaste over nerfing 2-year old items - is there any greater impact on raiders from nerfing the seals rather than the symbols(whether the nerf is in terms of HP, AC, whatever)?

*IF* there was a nerf, would a nerf of HP along the line Ngreth proposed *except with increased caster focii* be less intolerable from a casters point of view?

* * * *

I'm with you - I would prefer that there not be a nerf. I see the new cultural as being largely like Blue Diamond Cultural, which was comparable to the previous expansion's raid gear when it came out (without requiring any raid items at all, unlike LBs or other seals). I think the main issue is that it was released right when SOF came out, rather than a few months into it, and b) the imbalance in drops let to a lot all at once. Both of those combined led to the huge impact on the leaderboards, leading to the current contrtemps.

While I don't think we need a nerf, I'm just trying to figure out what might be less intolerable if one does happen.

Garshok

[Zacatac]

Maevennia,

I guess looking at it, I don't see any difference between nerfing the exalted/sublime augs by 100HP/mana or nerfing the slot 12 augs by 110 HP/mana

Is there more that I am missing regarding nerfing symbols vs. seals?

I think the part you are missing right now is the proposed nerf does BOTH, not "or". They are nerfing the 11 and 12 types, then adding a little bit back to the armor. But the net loss can be as much as -124 HP per piece.

Symbol/Seal       Present  Proposed
Exalted symbol      265      180
Sublime symbol      330      235
Bazu seal           180       75
Last Blood seal     210      100

While I don't think we need a nerf, I'm just trying to figure out what might be less intolerable if one does happen.

I agree.

[Zopharr]

I think the part you are missing right now is the proposed nerf does BOTH, not "or". They are nerfing the 11 and 12 types, then adding a little bit back to the armor. But the net loss can be as much as -124 HP per piece.

Symbol/Seal       Present  Proposed
Exalted symbol      265      180
Sublime symbol      330      235
Bazu seal           180       75
Last Blood seal     210      100

I agree.

OK - I see that I have to go back to the spreadsheets again. I thought the armor had been bumped up enough to pretty much negate the nerf to the symbol, so the seals were the big nerf. I also didn't look at the 70/75 combo very closely, relying on the summapries on the updates spredheet.

Back to the drawing board, I guess.

Thanks,

Garshok

[Anterouk]

Surely if the proposed changes above with 80+ hp coming off both the symbol and the raid aug, then you will have group armour(SOF warped/alloy etc) that is better than group armour with a raid drop, which is ludicrous.

I have stated before the changes should be made to the lvl 75 symbols and the lvl 80 symbol/armour, they are the new items that have caused the furor from the `elites`, you dont nerf 3 year old gear.

You balance the progression from lvl 70 symbol through 75 and 80 symbol, not have the huge jump you have atm from 70 to 75. And slightly lower the stats on the armour to allow for improving the tss/tbs and sof seals.

Last bloods have been too high historically but the `elites` werent vocal about it until new items they could get could replace them, and these items they had been happily using could boost mid tier raiders and casuals in new group armours.

[Woland]

I realize you guys do not wish to see changes no matter how rational argument for such changes are. However, please at least try to be honest, the points made above are simply dishonest.

Zacatac,

Symbol is being changed , Yes but not really nerfed. What is being taken off Symbol is going to armor. It is just being split up differently, change that should be beneficial to all tradeskillers.

Anterouk,

We are discussing a change to Demi raid drop that makes armor that is 600 HP. If this change was to happen it would be 500 HP. I really find it cynical that you should say that someone who used this at level 70 with 340 HP does not want you to have it as good. Come on.

[Catweazel]

Surely if the proposed changes above with 80+ hp coming off both the symbol and the raid aug, then you will have group armour(SOF warped/alloy etc) that is better than group armour with a raid drop, which is ludicrous.

There is plenty of group armor that exceeds raid armor. It happens every expansion.

Last bloods have been too high historically but the `elites` werent vocal about it until new items they could get could replace them, and these items they had been happily using could boost mid tier raiders and casuals in new group armours.

This sentence does not make a lot of sense. If you seriously believe that cultural armor (80/80/LB) can make that much of a difference to mid tier raiders fighting in events like Demi and above, I would invite you to name which specific event it is and how exactly AC/HP affects the outcome of the event. It is sentences like your last one that are misinformed and inflammatory that are adding to the problem instead of helping resolve it.

[Twistagain]

This sentence does not make a lot of sense. If you seriously believe that cultural armor (80/80/LB) can make that much of a difference to mid tier raiders fighting in events like Demi and above, I would invite you to name which specific event it is and how exactly AC/HP affects the outcome of the event. It is sentences like your last one that are misinformed and inflammatory that are adding to the problem instead of helping resolve it.

I think I'm missing something. If it doesn't help, then what exactly is the "problem" with the items? Everyone says that the focus effects are sub-par, so it can't be that. So, if it's not the AC/HP, not the focii, and not the stats (SURELY, the stats don't help), then what is it? The mod2s? Haven't seen anyone call for those to be lowered/removed.

[Catweazel]

I think I'm missing something. If it doesn't help, then what exactly is the "problem" with the items? Everyone says that the focus effects are sub-par, so it can't be that. So, if it's not the AC/HP, not the focii, and not the stats (SURELY, the stats don't help), then what is it? The mod2s? Haven't seen anyone call for those to be lowered/removed.

IMO the stats (AC/HP/mod2's etc etc) on the armor have nothing to do with the underlying issue even though people attempt to construct arguments for and against the nerf. Elaborate cases have been built, destroyed and rebuilt over the last few months. People and "the game" will survive whether the nerf happens or not, events will still be won or lost whether people are wearing nerfed cultural or over powered cultural.

Purely from a design perspective, cultural armor has its flaws. I am sure those flaws can be designed out for SOF and the future. In fact, I am sure the errors by now have all been identified and could be implemented anytime. Software design also has to consider worst case scenarios - in this case I am sure the event design for Demi and beyond has to be evaluated against a 54 man raid team each wearing 8 pieces of cultural (a "set") regardless of whether that is practical or likely. In an enduring game like EQ, the impossible tends to become probable - anyone remember the Sleeper being killed??

The issue is that people do not like losing what they were given, especially as they were given it in good faith. Significant amounts of in game money has changed hands, significant loot decisions have been made, tradeskill careers have been chosen and completed - in other words there has been a significant impact to the game world through the introduction of revised cultural armor with the SOF expansion. The genie is out of the bottle and putting it back is impossible.

The best RL example I can think of is a government announcement that all personal taxes will be reduced 50%, then going ahead and reducing them, then announcing that someone made an error in the Budget and taxes will be increased 25%.

[Leana]

I realize you guys do not wish to see changes no matter how rational argument for such changes are. However, please at least try to be honest, the points made above are simply dishonest.

Zacatac,

Symbol is being changed , Yes but not really nerfed. What is being taken off Symbol is going to armor. It is just being split up differently, change that should be beneficial to all tradeskillers.

If you want to view things rationally, then you will have to admit that this is, in fact, a nerf. Removing stats from the configurable portion of the armor that can be moved from piece to piece and placing those stats on the portion of the armor that cannot be moved is most definitely a nerf. You know it is, and you are just trying to minimize the impact of that.

The reason that the Bazu/LB have such a huge effort and cash outlay to make is due to the benefits they provide to the armor when making it. The benefit is that it was designed to be moved from piece to piece. Nerfing those stats significantly impacts their value and desirability.

[Zacatac]

My post was to show that BOTH the type 11 aug and type 12 seals are being nerfed. You can say "well they are putting HP on the armor", which is true, but the hp on the armor is no where near the change to the combo hit of 11+12 reduction.

I'd be more than happy with a change to just the type 11 and armor, and leaving the bazu/lastblood type alone. It's simply not right to cut the hp by more than half on those seals.

I recently "spent" 30 days of DKP to win a bazu stone on a raid. I bought an AAAA for 140k to finish the seal. And now they want to cut it down to 75hp.

We will be in DPoB this month. In my guild, winning a last blood stone is just the same as a piece of armor. I will most likely put in for armor and pass on the last bloods if they are nerfed. I don't see myself wearing more than 3 pieces of cultural that I have now.

Looking at the totals, you have over 100hp loss per piece in some cases. I think that's pretty extreme. And if you read my earlier posts in regards to AC, it doesn't do anything to solve the issue.

[Anterouk]

In response to Catweazel and Woland, I was going on the info that Zacatac indicated whereby LB/Bazu losing 100hp+ and the type 11 symbol losing 80+hp aswell. 80/80LB combo to around 350hp, which is SOF group armour(allegedly) with a RAID drops. This is around the same, if not less than Warped Steel/Alloy from SOF group.

Catweazel, I fail to understand how you can misinterpret:-

Last bloods have been too high historically but the `elites` werent vocal about it until new items they could get could replace them, and these items they had been happily using could boost mid tier raiders and casuals in new group armours.

Elites have been using LB/Bazu in there current form for 3 years, but only start to whinge and moan about others having them, and screaming nerf them as they have access to Serpent/Faycite Seals to replace the LB/Bazu. And because SOF group armours coupled with the drops they themselves have been using are closing the gap between the `elite` and the casuals, they throw their toys out of the pram, and the developers listen, even tho %wise the number of elite is far outweighed by the people this nerf will most affect.

[Catweazel]

In response to Catweazel and Woland, I was going on the info that Zacatac indicated whereby LB/Bazu losing 100hp+ and the type 11 symbol losing 80+hp aswell. 80/80LB combo to around 350hp, which is SOF group armour(allegedly) with a RAID drops. This is around the same, if not less than Warped Steel/Alloy from SOF group.

Catweazel, I fail to understand how you can misinterpret:-

Last bloods have been too high historically but the `elites` werent vocal about it until new items they could get could replace them, and these items they had been happily using could boost mid tier raiders and casuals in new group armours.

Elites have been using LB/Bazu in there current form for 3 years, but only start to whinge and moan about others having them, and screaming nerf them as they have access to Serpent/Faycite Seals to replace the LB/Bazu. And because SOF group armours coupled with the drops they themselves have been using are closing the gap between the `elite` and the casuals, they throw their toys out of the pram, and the developers listen, even tho %wise the number of elite is far outweighed by the people this nerf will most affect.

I don't believe I misinterpreted anything.

You can choose to stir up the flames of hatred between the people you call elites and the people you call casuals.....or you can choose to deal with the problem of the planned nerf to cultural itself.

There have indeed been insulting and derogatory comments hurled around with wild abandon - surprisingly by all kinds of people and not one specific segment.

There have also been some intelligent suggestions from both of the groups you labelled.

It becomes a matter of choice whether you want to continue adding fuel to the flames or do something more constructive with your time.