Cultural Changes - Proposed Change Examples

[Nolrog]

Cultural Change Proposal is up on the EQLive forums. Apologize for not being able to paste it here sooner. Just noticed the forums were back up. Anyway, here's the Source These are all Ngreth's words, pasted here for your convenience. Formatting in the 2nd and 3rd posts is better on the EQ Live forums.

Ngreth wrote:

Before SoF Launched, the maximum cultural available was Elaborate armor with Eminent symbols (For short hand I am going to call it L70/L70 for the rest of this post) and you could put in a Last Blood Seal (For short hand I am going to call it DoD seal for the rest of the post.)

For ease of conversation I am just going to talk about plate armor, only the AC varied between it and the chain, leather and cloth armor.

The L70/L70 base set would yield an average of 57AC and 130 HP/MANA/END per piece.
Add the DOD seal and it would average 102AC and 340 HP/MANA/END per piece.

A full set of L70/L70 would give 420AC and 1010 HP/MANA/END.
A full set with a DoD seal in every piece would give 780AC and 2690 HP/MANA/END.

The proposed change is to move some of the HP/MANA/END from the DoD seal to L70/70 base set. Some amount is also removed from the Chronal (PoP), Discord (GoD), and Bazu (OoW) seals. Some amount is also removed from the Serpent (TSS), Sunshard (TBS) and Faycite (SoF) seals. We found that in this proposal some adjustment would be needed on the SoF Seal, despite previous uninformed statements.

Some of the stats are also moved around so some pieces are not as huge and others not as tiny (though still different) and this accounts for the slight average differences you see on the AC.

With these changes:
The L70/70 base set will yield an average of 56AC and 241 HP/MANA/END per piece.
Add the DoD seal and it will average 101AC and 340 HP/MANA/END per piece.

A full set of L70/L70 will give 453AC and 1930 HP/MANA/END.
A full set with a DoD seal in every piece will give 813AC and 2730 HP/MANA/END.

The Next Base set is Elaborate armor with Exalted symbols (L70/L75) This set will be changed by having a L75 armor set and the Exalted symbols (L75/L75)

Original:
The L70/L75 base set would yield an average of 57AC and 290 HP/MANA/END per piece.
Add the DOD seal and it would average 102AC and 500 HP/MANA/END per piece.

A full set of L70/L75 would give 420AC and 2045 HP/MANA/END.
A full set with a DoD seal in every piece would give 780AC and 3725 HP/MANA/END.

Changed:
The L75/L75 base set would yield an average of 59AC and 301 HP/MANA/END per piece.
Add the DOD seal and it would average 104AC and 451 HP/MANA/END per piece.

A full set of L75/L75 would give 472AC and 2410 HP/MANA/END.
A full set with a DoD seal in every piece would give 832AC and 3210 HP/MANA/END.

And finally there is the Elegant armor and Sublime symbols set (L80/L80)

Original:
The L80/L80 base set would yield an average of 80AC and 392 HP/MANA/END per piece.
Add the DOD seal and it would average 125AC and 602 HP/MANA/END per piece.

A full set of L80/L80 would give 583AC and 3065 HP/MANA/END.
A full set with a DoD seal in every piece would give 943AC and 4745 HP/MANA/END.

Changed:
The L80/L80 base set would yield an average of 80AC and 396 HP/MANA/END per piece.
Add the DOD seal and it would average 125AC and 496 HP/MANA/END per piece.

A full set of L80/L80 would give 641AC and 3170 HP/MANA/END.
A full set with a DoD seal in every piece would give 1001AC and 3970 HP/MANA/END.

(More in the next post)

[Nolrog]

For those that want to see more data:

Piece Average
Old......L70/L70..........AC......HP/Mana/END
..........Base..............57........130
..........Base + PoP.....57........185
..........Base + GoD.....67........250
..........Base + OoW....87........310
..........Base + DoD.....102......340
..........Base + TSS.....102......380
..........Base + TBS.....102......430
..........Base + SOF.....102......480

New....L70/L70..........AC......HP/Mana/END...........Change
............Base............56........241......... ..............+111
............Base + PoP....56........266......................+81
............Base + GoD....66........291......................+41
............Base + OoW...86........316......................+6
............Base + DoD....101......341.......................+1
............Base + TSS....101......391.......................+11
............Base + TBS....101......466.......................+36
............Base + SOF....101......541.......................+61

Set Total
Old......L70/L70..........AC......HP/Mana/END
............Base............420......1040
............Base + PoP...420......1480
............Base + GoD...500.....2000
............Base + OoW..660......2480
............Base + DoD...780......2720
............Base + TSS...780......3040
............Base + TBS...780......3440
............Base + SOF...780......3840

New....L70/L70..........AC......HP/Mana/END...........Change
............Base............453.....1930.......... ............+890
............Base + PoP...453......2130.....................+650
............Base + GoD...533......2330.....................+330
............Base + OoW..693......2530.....................+50
............Base + DoD...813......2730.....................+10
............Base + TSS...813......3130.....................+90
............Base + TBS...813......3730.....................+290
............Base + SOF...813......4330.....................+490

Edit: Fixed errors caused by bad math in the original post on EQ Live.

[Nolrog]

Piece Average
Old......L70/L75..........AC......HP/Mana/END
............Base.............57........290
............Base + PoP....57........345
............Base + GoD....67........410
............Base + OoW...87........470
............Base + DoD...102.......500
............Base + TSS...102.......540
............Base + TBS...102.......590
............Base + SOF...102.......640

New....L75/L75..........AC......HP/Mana/END...........Change
............Base............59........301......... .............+11
............Base + PoP....59........326......................-19
............Base + GoD....69........351......................-59
............Base + OoW...89........376......................-94
............Base + DoD....104......401......................-99
............Base + TSS....104......451......................-89
............Base + TBS....104......526......................-64
............Base + SOF....104......601......................-39

Set Total
Old......L70/L75..........AC......HP/Mana/END
............Base.............452......2320
............Base + PoP....452......2760
............Base + GoD....532......3280
............Base + OoW....692......3760
............Base + DoD.....812......4000
............Base + TSS.....812......4320
............Base + TBS.....812......4720
............Base + SOF.....812......5120

New....L75/L75..........AC......HP/Mana/END...........Change
............Base............472......2410......... ............+90
............Base + PoP....472......2610....................-150
............Base + GoD....552......2810....................-470
............Base + OoW...712......3010....................-750
............Base + DoD... 832......3210....................-790
............Base + TSS....832......3610....................-710
............Base + TBS....832......4210.....................-510
............Base + SOF....832......4810.....................-310

Piece Average
Old......L80/L80..........AC......HP/Mana/END
............Base.............80........392
............Base + PoP....80........442
............Base + GoD....90........512
............Base + OoW...110......572
............Base + DoD....125......602
............Base + TSS....125......642
............Base + TBS....125......692
............Base + SOF....125......742

New....L80/L80..........AC......HP/Mana/END...........Change
............Base............80.......396.......... .............+4
............Base + PoP...80........421......................-26
............Base + GoD...90.......446.......................-66
............Base + OoW..110......471......................-101
............Base + DoD...125......496......................-106
............Base + TSS...125......546......................-96
............Base + TBS...125......621......................-71
............Base + SOF...125......696......................-46

Set Total
Old......L80/L80..........AC......HP/Mana/END
............Base............641......3130
............Base + PoP....641......3570
............Base + GoD....721......4090
............Base + OoW...881......4570
............Base + DoD....1001....4810
............Base + TSS....1001....5130
............Base + TBS....1001....5530
............Base + SOF....1001....5930

New....L80/L80..........AC......HP/Mana/EN............Change
............Base............641......3170......... ...........+40
............Base + PoP....641......3370...................-200
............Base + GoD....721......3570...................-520
............Base + OoW...881......3770...................-800
............Base + DoD....1001.....3970...................-840
............Base + TSS....1001.....4370...................-760
............Base + TBS....1001.....4970...................-560
............Base + SOF....1001.....5570...................-360

And if you want to see more specific data you can go here and check the multiple tabs:

http://www.editgrid.com/user/ngreth/Cultural_Changes

Edit: Fixed errors caused by bad math in the original post on EQ Live.

[Nolrog]

This is just one of the proposals that we want to get player feedback on.

These changes will allow for proper scaling of the armor in the future, and will lead to less issues with future version of the armor.

This is NOT a final decision, though it is one we are leaning towards.

===============
OK, that's the last of Ngreth's posts. Source for EQ Live version is in the OP.

[Anterouk]

Surely these changes should have been made during Beta testing, not after 3 months with playrs having been told everything is working as intended?

Yes Lastbloods are too much ac(definitely)/hp(possibly) for their content but they have been this way for 3 years. The people who are complaining about the tradeskill armours are those that are the top end raiders who have used last blood/cultural(lvl 70) for the majority of the raids through to TBS/SOF. Now that mid tier/casuals have a chance to catch up a little(until SOF tier 4 raid gear comes out and the problems disappear) they complain like mad because their epeens are being shrunk.

The way the new armours/symbols should have been introduced is either with new aug slots(not slot 11/12) or similar to the jewellery has been done where the augments only get full power when used in the correct way(dwerium gives the full power).

The only reasonable solution to this is leave things as they are, bear with the high end raider moaning until they find their new shiny toys and their `heads` can grow again. Otherwise you will have alot of people very very upset with something that `is working as intended` being significantly nerfed.

[Aldier]

If I am reading this right, he used plate armor in his examples. The issue I thought most high-end raiders were complaining about the cultural was that the AC was too high and the hp were high. For a non-plate class, the AC is a non-issue. This solution actually INCREASES the AC and decreases just the hp. So for those complaining the AC is too high, it solves nothing. For those that don't care about the AC you get hit the hardest because all these are good for is the hp/mana as the foci are outdated and near useless. You get hit the most.

I still need to run some numbers, but this sounds like a real hurt to casters and not that bad for tanks (ac minded, hp minded get hurt).

I think the issue is around designing a piece of all/all interchangeable gear. How do you balance it so all classes will want it without overpowering/hurting one group of classes. I still believe that 2+ year old content should NOT be nerfed simply because the new armor from the newest expansion pushes stats too high. Adjust the NEW stuff not the old.

*EDIT* Thanks Nolrog for doing your best to get that info posted here as the formatting is a pain to do.

[danille]

As a mage, if I had any Solt gear with +focus items, there is no chance I'd trade it out for a few extra hp/mana (cultural) and a much lower level focus.

The whole nerf push is coming from the 3 plate tank classes in Solt. Those tanks in TSS/Solt gear have been finding Anguish/DP/TSS players with cultural ranking above them when sorting the leader board by AC.

They completly discount the fact that the Solt raider still has more HP and the best +mod2s and other melee effects.

For casters, the focus effects on Bazu/LB are devastating low and so low that a fully geared cultural guild with everyone havding with 8 LB seals would lack the DPS and weaponry to skip content. Every guild will still have to beat Solteris in order to win SoF raids as the events will still be unbeatable.

To me it's rather silly to look at the extreme example and cry nerf. There are very few people who will have a full set of 8 cultural + 8 Lastbloods.

Specifically regarding casters, we get screwed the most (negative HP/MANA) because AC is meaningless to our classes.

[uncleshmoozo]

I just read the first five pages of the thread linked over on the EQPlayers forum. Frankly, after reading that much, I don't think I'm going to bother reading the last 30+ pages of it.

What a bunch of whining and griping! The people who seem to be whining the most are the ones who apparently have been mixing armor from one level with seals from another, which in most cases seem to be people trying to use their older seals with the newer armor. Or is it the other way around? I can't be bothered to check.

Whatever. The changes look fine to me.

[Zolina]

Looks like worst-case scenario, you lose 775hp (that's assuming full set of Elegant + Sublime + Last Blood). That'll hurt, but not bad enough for people to quit over, in my opinion. You also gain 58 AC in the deal, which isn't bad for melee classes. I also like the level 75 armor, it's about halfway between 70 and 80 armor, should be a good choice for those who can't afford Elegant.

Seems to be a very fair resolution to the problem in my opinion, Ngreth.

[Catweazel]

Looks like worst-case scenario, you lose 775hp (that's assuming full set of Elegant + Sublime + Last Blood). That'll hurt, but not bad enough for people to quit over, in my opinion. You also gain 58 AC in the deal, which isn't bad for melee classes. I also like the level 75 armor, it's about halfway between 70 and 80 armor, should be a good choice for those who can't afford Elegant.

Seems to be a very fair resolution to the problem in my opinion, Ngreth.

Apparently it is a myth that AC is gained with the change. The detailed spreadsheet NGreth supplied apparently shows a missing Bracer or an extra Bracer (I couldn't find it myself).

According to the self-proclaimed experts, AC will remain the same, HP will be cut by 700+ HP on a set of LB's.

Although these proposed changes do not directly impact me, I disagree that the changes are "fair". The whole situation is a disaster, any change is a massive blow to customer service irrespective of the maths and details.

The currently proposed change will (IMO) significantly impact Tinkering, followed very closely by Smithing and Tailoring. Because almost no-one actually wears L70/L70/LB armor, when the changes to other cultural is compared to what else is available from SOF group mobs, you would have to be crazy to spend 1 million plat per piece of armor. Group available armor in SOF will be better than Cultural, and it is buyable in the bazaar for 100k or less. As Cultural will not be able to compete with that kind of pricing, it will become unwanted. Any further changes SOE makes to try and adjust for this will further shake the delicate balance of the SOF expansion.

[Twistagain]

Apparently it is a myth that AC is gained with the change. The detailed spreadsheet NGreth supplied apparently shows a missing Bracer or an extra Bracer (I couldn't find it myself).

According to the sheet vs. current stats on Full Set of L80/L80/DoD (Plate):

Armor AC is the same at 641.
Armor HP is increased by 800.
Symbol HP is decreased by 760.
Seal AC is the same.
Seal HP is decreased by 880.

Total AC is same.
Total HP is decreased by 840.

As far as I can tell, the sheet shows no change to the AC of any item. All slots remain the same as they are now. It looks like only one bracer was included in the "old" total.

[Bors]

I will be cancelling 4 accounts if this goes live.

[Xenephex]

First of all, I'm not sure why the sudden adherence to new-speak in everything related to these changes. Everyone knows what a last blood and bazu seal are - why DoD and OoW now? (Shorthand for Last Blood, by the way, is LB, which is even shorter than DoD. Shorthand for Bazu is, well - Bazu. One extra letter). This follows on the sudden appearance of armor 'sets', which are always referred to by level, after they went to all the trouble of giving names to them in the first place (which we all had to learn).

But, be that as it may, how hard would it have been, at some point in the post, to say the following.

1) We are taking 110 hp/mana/end off of every Last Blood aug, thus reducing it from 210 to 100 (more than half).

2) We are taking 105 hp/mana/end off of every Bazu Seal, thus reducing it from 180 to..... 75?

Wow. Just Wow. And this is the first time Bazu's have been mentioned in this context.

180 to 75?

[Nolrog]

First of all, I'm not sure why the sudden adherence to new-speak in everything related to these changes. Everyone knows what a last blood and bazu seal are - why DoD and OoW now??

I'm sure it was ease of notation.

DoD, OoW, PoP and the like are all 3 letters long which also makes for easier formatting.

[Xenephex]

I'm sure it was ease of notation.

DoD, OoW, PoP and the like are all 3 letters long which also makes for easier formatting.

Ok. I'll buy that.