Cultural Changes - Proposed Change Examples

[Woland]

... I had exptected based on my impression that this set was getting a nerf, but I had problems reconciling that as it was, I figured, the most likely set for the majority to be wearing right now. Ngreth has to know that the L70/L75 set is in NO way breaking anyone's view on RvR, nor is it breaking any content at all. Decreasing it's value makes no sense at all. If this chart ever becomes part of the original post and people happen to re-review that post, there will be even more complaining as this change doesn't make any sense.

Polt

I am not sure you understand the issue. 70/75 is the most problematic of all sets. It epitomizes the issues with Cultural armor.

Let me explain and clarify. It is not 70/75 in itself that is the issue, it is 70/75/LB,Bazu. If you owned 70/70/LB pre-SoF, just by changing Symbol from 70 to 75 gives you ~50% boost. You can argue that effort/cost to produce 80/80 is massive, you simply cannot argue same for exchanging just Symbol to Exalted. From RvR this is the most "broken" situation atm.

The point at which 70/75/LB stats are is ahead of TSS visible armor. This is just silly. This is the situation being pointed out as a balancing point if Cultural armor is to be what it should, an option and not the primary choice 70/75/Serpant would need to be balanced with TSS armor. This would mean that 70/75/LB needs to lose 100+ HP/Mana.

[Sharrien]

The problem is that everyone insists on looking at a set with last blood and calling it a DoD item that is several expansions old and it looks out of wack compared to current gear. Well, gues what, you make a piece of elegant armor and put a sublime aug in it and it isn't a DoD item, it is tier 3 SoF groupable gear. Stop trying to compare these sets to current gear and representing anything with a LB in it as content that is 3 years old, the new armor and symbols brings it right up to current content.

[Woland]

Sharrien,

Are you saying this because it suits you or because you have an argument and reason to balance 80/80/lb to something?

This sort of argument just does not stand. I like my stats therefor it's good.

Hey I don't like stats on my BP can I get a TS aug that will increase its AC by 75? Do you think I have a reasonalbe request there? Why not keep me happy?

[Twistagain]

I think the point is this: people are talking about 80/80/LB as if it is OLD gear.

To balance against old gear, you need to look at 70/70/LB...as that was what was available THEN.

If you want to look at 80/80/LB (or X/75/LB or X/80/LB), then you have to compare it to SoF gear, as the 75 and 80 symbols and 80 armor is all SoF stuff.

Even then, people want to compare it as group armor. The armor itself is groupable, but the LB isn't.

[Bobaten]

I don't open spreadsheets or other files from online sources ....

Just a quick note, the editgrid links aren't files you download, it is an online spreadsheet program. It's just being used as a convenient way of providing lots of information in an easily readable format.

[Woland]

Twistagain,

I could not agree more.

Please tell me would you balance 80/80/LB agains a certain raid Tier in SoF and why? I cannot see sense in such a thing.

Closest I can come and I think it is very close and very reasonable is comparing 75/75/Serpant to TSS.

You do agree that those two should be approx. equal?

If you do you need to lose 100+ Mana/HP off this set up.

If you do not agree please tell me why?

Again if you do agree that we need to lose 100 HP in the 75/75/Serpant it is hard to see how you can keep 80/80/LB as is.

This is a very simple argument and it is about the only way we have to understand how new armor is related to anything before and after it. If you insist that this not be enforced than you are asking for a new deffinition and that also brings into question why not then obsolete LB aug and not let it be usefull anymore. If Old Cultural and New Cultural are not related than surely LB needs to go.

[Sharrien]

Sharrien,

Are you saying this because it suits you or because you have an argument and reason to balance 80/80/lb to something?

This sort of argument just does not stand. I like my stats therefor it's good.

Hey I don't like stats on my BP can I get a TS aug that will increase its AC by 75? Do you think I have a reasonalbe request there? Why not keep me happy?

I probably wasn't clear because I rushed myself writing my post earlier. I am actually not in favor of any changes except maybe an adjustment to the ac on the seals. Many of the arguments on several different boards in favor of nerfage cite that a 80/80/LB set is too good for an aug that is three years old. I was trying to point out that is not a valid comparison and that you have to compare it to current gear since that set comes from SoF content, quite difficult content at that.

[Woland]

Sharrien,

You full well know there is nothing like this to compare to. You have a 3 year old drop that realy adds to 80/80 in a major way. If you look up you will see that I, who is for nerf, do not argue 80/80/LB. I would love to but there is nothing to compare in any meeaningfull way. I argue 75/75 (70/75) with Serpant as this is directly comparable to TSS armor.

[Bobaten]

You full well know there is nothing like this to compare to. You have a 3 year old drop that realy adds to 80/80 in a major way.

How about:
BiC in Cultural Armor
Adventurer Stone in DoN vendor charms

[Polt11]

I am not sure you understand the issue. 70/75 is the most problematic of all sets. It epitomizes the issues with Cultural armor.

Let me explain and clarify. It is not 70/75 in itself that is the issue, it is 70/75/LB,Bazu. If you owned 70/70/LB pre-SoF, just by changing Symbol from 70 to 75 gives you ~50% boost. You can argue that effort/cost to produce 80/80 is massive, you simply cannot argue same for exchanging just Symbol to Exalted. From RvR this is the most "broken" situation atm.

The point at which 70/75/LB stats are is ahead of TSS visible armor. This is just silly. This is the situation being pointed out as a balancing point if Cultural armor is to be what it should, an option and not the primary choice 70/75/Serpant would need to be balanced with TSS armor. This would mean that 70/75/LB needs to lose 100+ HP/Mana.

I don't believe that L70/L75 has to be in any way balanced around adding a seal onto it- I regret that it even has a slot 12 as it is the slot 12 that is the problem. I believe that if you had a good slot 12 seal, you would be seriously looking for L80/L80 (especially if you are a tank).

The new L75 augment was put out using the same change in equipment philosophy that Sony implemented with SoF. Prior to SoF you would be completely right that the RvR is out of wack. As it is, L70/L75 equipment isn't as good as the visible Tier 1 armor and is easier/cheaper to obtain than the tier 1 armor. It is balanced in the context that it was created.

[Zacatac]

I agree some HP should come off the symbol, but some of it needs to be added to the armor set.

Take 80 Hp from 75 symbol, add 40hp to 75 armor. (net -40)
Take 100hp from 80 symbol, add 60hp to 80 armor. (net -40)

And just to re-quote myself-

Then, remove 15 AC from the Armor piece, and add the following-
Last blood: 45ac
Serpent: 50ac (+5)
Sunshard 55ac (+10)
Faycite 60ac (+15)

Net result is -15 AC per piece if you are using LB or lower, but you can gain some back by upgrading the Type 12, up to +15 on the latest one and balance out.

It balances out the issue with AC, while providing a progression path to get the AC back (currently all 4 augs have same AC).

The HP/Mana isn't the issue. Most people like to compare AC/HP and say things like "it's better than Solt gear!" And it's not true for most classes. I would never pass up a Solt level focus to use 80/80/LB and it's much lower level focus.

It's like saying a 1hs weapon with 1000hp/100AC is better than anything else, but ignoring the fact the weapon has 10 dmg/30 dly.

[Aldier]

I agree some HP should come off the symbol, but some of it needs to be added to the armor set.

Take 80 Hp from 75 symbol, add 40hp to 75 armor. (net -40)
Take 100hp from 80 symbol, add 60hp to 80 armor. (net -40)

And just to re-quote myself-

Then, remove 15 AC from the Armor piece, and add the following-
Last blood: 45ac
Serpent: 50ac (+5)
Sunshard 55ac (+10)
Faycite 60ac (+15)

Net result is -15 AC per piece if you are using LB or lower, but you can gain some back by upgrading the Type 12, up to +15 on the latest one and balance out.

It balances out the issue with AC, while providing a progression path to get the AC back (currently all 4 augs have same AC).

The HP/Mana isn't the issue. Most people like to compare AC/HP and say things like "it's better than Solt gear!" And it's not true for most classes. I would never pass up a Solt level focus to use 80/80/LB and it's much lower level focus.

It's like saying a 1hs weapon with 1000hp/100AC is better than anything else, but ignoring the fact the weapon has 10 dmg/30 dly.

The issue with the LB+ augs is the ac is TOO high already. Why would you want to further increase them? Also, the armor is the only source of ac for the group version of cultural (armor + symbol) that has to maintain the ac it has to be balanced with group gear from SoF Tier 3.

[Zacatac]

The issue with the LB+ augs is the ac is TOO high already. Why would you want to further increase them?

1. I don't like nerfing 3 year old items. Thousands of people have spent time, plat and DKP making those augs.
2. The armor examples of 80/80/LB always being tossed about can be addressed by changes to the 80/80, and leave the LB alone.
3. The reason to further increase them is simple, I think there should be some progression of AC for each level. It makes no sense that they don't go up at all. Taking 15 AC off the armor, then adding a path to upgrade the AC makes sense to me.

People want progressive increases. Making the armor itself a large HP upgrade, but slight AC upgrade, can be enough for "group armor". Then adding the "raid aug" AC upgrade further increases your AC proportionately to the content your raid aug came from.

[danille]

great post Zacatac

[Aldier]

1. I don't like nerfing 3 year old items. Thousands of people have spent time, plat and DKP making those augs.
2. The armor examples of 80/80/LB always being tossed about can be addressed by changes to the 80/80, and leave the LB alone.
3. The reason to further increase them is simple, I think there should be some progression of AC for each level. It makes no sense that they don't go up at all. Taking 15 AC off the armor, then adding a path to upgrade the AC makes sense to me.

People want progressive increases. Making the armor itself a large HP upgrade, but slight AC upgrade, can be enough for "group armor". Then adding the "raid aug" AC upgrade further increases your AC proportionately to the content your raid aug came from.

I agree they should not nerf LBs. 3 year old content should not be nerfed because something newer came out that makes it still desireable. I know the time and plat that goes into them, but the DKP argument is not SOEs decision and should not make a bit of difference to them that someone spent an arbitrary number of points in a loot system that only pertains to their guild. I am simply pointing out that the ac on them was higher than the developers want. That and the large increases in focus effects and stats on the armor/symbol were used to balance the idea of Serpent/Sunshard/Faycite NOT getting an ac increase. They feel that 45ac on the raid aug was comparable to where they wanted Faycite to be, or at one point did. I agree, if the problem is 80/80/LB, then make changes to the NEW items.