Cultural Changes - Proposed Change Examples

[Hsgames]

Cultural really needs to be compared with Crystallos, not Solteris. Crystallos is very easy to get flagged for and farm in, even for toons in full TBS group gear (300 hp/mana ish). The only negative to it at all is it's just not as fun to farm a 20 minute spawn as it is to raid. Heck, I find Crys far easier to camp than T3 zones. With an invis you can go anywhere, and almost everything is single pullable by anyone.

If Cultural is nerfed to be inferior in hp/mana to Crystallos, the desire for it will plummet to nothingness outside of warriors and knights. The AC will keep those guys wanting it, but the rest of us are better off killing elders in Crys.

Crys armor should have been in the 360 hp/mana range, but it's not. SoF groupable gear is meant to be as good as Solteris raid gear. Nerfing cultural just screws those who invested a lot of plat and effort in tradeskill stuff in the last few months rather than just mindlessly farming crys gear.

Even in it's current form, many prefer Crys gear over cultural due to the focii, and ease of getting it (shelling out a million plat+ may be easy for some, but is impossible for many as well.)

Those warriors who are all upset about their leaderboard rankings will be just as upset in a month after a cultural nerf goes through, when those same "newbies in Demi" are sporting full Crys gear in all of their slots instead of just cultural in their visible slots.

Groupers WILL catch up easily to anyone raiding pre SoF in this expansion. Nerfing the HP/mana of cultural gear does absolutely nothing to prevent this, it just makes cultural worthless to casters and sends them all to Crystallos.

Pretty much Bingo. I am a warrior wearing Solteris Gear (Have all except Legs & BP). I have noticed via Magelo & EQPlayers that I have several warriors who are "ahead" of me due to them having full cultural gear while their guilds are breaking into TSS raid events. I am Pro for the cultural changes and also pro for the mobs to start summoning in Crystallos. Now with cultural imo you have "weak" foci effects that make the full cultural set for some a nonissue but for those that strive for Pure AC/Hps then it becomes a issue. The game will go on and I sure am not quitting over the cultural issue at hand. Just going to make my pieces and wait for the Tier 4 SoF and mix and match.

Personally I think (just my halfling opinion) that the cultural should be nerfed down to a bit above the group stuff in TSS/TBS not above the Raid Gear that you get.

Magelo link incase anyone wants to see. Hsgames Magelo Link

[Aldier]

Curious as to if the changes to the cultural gear have already happened or not. I have tried to follow along but being deployed can't get to this website everday. I have noticed that on Magelo and EQPlayers that still showing cultural can be 700+ hps/mana/end with just the LastBlood aug part being the only raid loot item. Will continue to reread all the posts to get more current on the issue. Thanks for the guidance and helping hand.

The changes have not gone in yet.

This thread is a discussion of the most recent version of the proposed changes that Ngreth posted on the SOE forums that had numbers instead of general "we are looking to lower some of the stats" comment we got with the first post set about the nerf to cultural armor.

[Aldier]

Pretty much Bingo. I am a warrior wearing Solteris Gear (Have all except Legs & BP). I have noticed via Magelo & EQPlayers that I have several warriors who are "ahead" of me due to them having full cultural gear while their guilds are breaking into TSS raid events. I am Pro for the cultural changes and also pro for the mobs to start summoning in Crystallos. Now with cultural imo you have "weak" foci effects that make the full cultural set for some a nonissue but for those that strive for Pure AC/Hps then it becomes a issue. The game will go on and I sure am not quitting over the cultural issue at hand. Just going to make my pieces and wait for the Tier 4 SoF and mix and match.

Personally I think (just my halfling opinion) that the cultural should be nerfed down to a bit above the group stuff in TSS/TBS not above the Raid Gear that you get.

Magelo link incase anyone wants to see. Hsgames Magelo Link

I am curious as to why you think that SoF T3 group gear further enhanced with a raid augment (even if slightly older) should be lower stats than SoF T2 group armor.

[Hsgames]

Was talking about the Raid gear not the Group gear. That should always be lower than raid gear no matter what tier it is on. Was trying to compare Raid vs Cultural gear

[Aaneras]

Threats to leave at this point have little point.

People are threatening to leave if we make NO change
People are threatening to leave if we make a change

So the fact that we put this in the game at ALL made people leave (assuming all the people making a threat leave) So at this point we can't pay attention to the people threatening to leave because it is already to late. We already screwed up and that is the fact of the matter and nothing can change the fact that we screwed up in the first place. People are leaving the game because of this no matter what we do.

That is not saying that we are paying no attention to players feedback, we are paying attention, but the "I quit / I will quit" bit is not factoring into it because that is already water under the bridge with nothing at all we can do about it.

There has been a great deal of feedback on this issue, and it would help matters substantially if the developers responded to it. In particular, there are identified quantifiable issues with the particular solution that you've suggested:

Balance between classes (caster seals weakened without the compensating AC benefits for tanks);

Balance between types of gear (cultural made weaker than groupable gear, which arguably violates risk vs. reward as much as comparing different raid types);

Impact on midtier raiding (last remaining high value items weakened);

Quite apart from this there simply appears to be a disconnect with a substantial portion of the player base.
EQ has adopted a model where new content is primarily designed for people who have exhausted prior content. It then "trickles down" to other players as they get to it - or when it is made easier with level increases, etc. This is most obvious for raids, but it's also present at some level for the group game (with a shorter lag time than raids.)

The net effect is that you're going to great effort to design clever things that only a small fraction of the players can get to when they are remotely new. This sparks some degree of resentment no matter what. When you have the strong appearance that the "haves" are able to publicly work the system to maintain their exclusive dibs to new content the trust of the playerbase gets lost. And you need that trust when you want to change things which are out of kilter. I think that you've accepted a framework for comparison where important, and real, balancing factors (cost, rarity, hassle and difficulty for raid seals) are simply ignored. The high end players had their reasons for proposing these comparisons - and you have quite a lot of posts since then from other people that have given other perspectives. That's where seeing real responses to the feedback would be valuable.

We all know that sometimes things get used in unintended ways or that things aren't working right. That simply feels very different than what we're seeing with cultural armor.

If you wanted my advice, it would be to pick a different structure for *future* cultural (so that only new seals and symbols would fit in it). This could be a system where you combine a base armor with a symbol to form something new with a slot 7 and 16 augment, for instance. That will save you the hassle of making multi-tiered combinations work, and you could always retrofit faycite to 12/16 if you need to. If you want "sets" then there is no reason to have mix n match armor/symbol/seal.

Make any adjustments that you feel must be made to the newer symbols and armor, not the older raid augments (removing complaints about items that have been in-game for longer.) Make it up to group players by adding groupable slot 12 augments which would yield better gear than the current cultural without a slot 12 aug. I'd treat half of your suggestion as a ceiling without compensation, using SoF tier 4 group as the balance point.

However, just switching off the current seals at level 80 gear would probably be enough to ensure that any balance issues would be contained and diminish with time. The high-enders complaining now would have their new raid armor and they'd forget about this.

If you touch the raid seals - improve the focus effects and mod2s so that it at least comes across as a rebalancing.

And, for heavens sake, drop the confusing set language. It's utterly inconsistent with everything that we've ever seen about cultural before. If you don't want seals to transfer beyond a certain point it's entirely reasonable to make it impossible to do so.

One final note - the entire discussion, at least for casters, has completely missed the actual way that people develop their characters. I'm in a raid force entering TSS. I have 7 Anguish/OoW pieces; 4 DoN era pieces; 3 Demiplane; 3 SoG group (tier 2); 1 TbS group (soon to be swapped out); one cultural (soon to be 2, replacing an Anguish piece); epic and tradeskill trophy. The abilities of my character are set by the highest content I can get to, not any particular slot. e.g. until I get to TSS I'm limited in important foci regardless of any clever hp/ma combinations; ditto solteris; ditto sof. Weaken cultural and sof group will be the new pressure point - people will simply go there instead, imploding the pre-solteris raid game and creating exactly the same balance issues as cultural. These limits are important balance points too.

[danille]

Solteris raid gear is 5 levels below the SoF expansion gear.

Crystallos and MMM raid gear is almost 2 times as powerful as Solteris raid gear. TBS endgame raiders need to start beating SoF endzone raid mobs if they want to gear up to level 80 quality raid gear.

It is silly to compare level 80 TS gear to level 75 TSS or TBS raid gear.

Level 80 TS gear must be compared to level 80 SoF raid gear...... period!

[Bobaten]

I find that very strange. 70 stuff is dirt cheap to buy right now. I've been selling finished 70 armor for 15k.

Prices to buy the single rare piece to make 75 aug (and someday armor), are over 50k on my server. And 80 stuff is 350k or more.

Soluble loam keeps spiking up to 30-40k on Prexus, Alkalai is about the same price. I don't make metal armor for sale any more because it costs more than it sells for.(excellent marrow and superb fluid are both well under 10k each).

[Zopharr]

Soluble loam keeps spiking up to 30-40k on Prexus, Alkalai is about the same price. I don't make metal armor for sale any more because it costs more than it sells for.(excellent marrow and superb fluid are both well under 10k each).

Similar on Quellious. Alkalai and Soluble both around 20-25k, with often none in bazaar (other than the two soluble loam someone is asking 170k for). Armor sells for about 40-45K.

I stock armor and replace it frequently, but that's only because I'm working off stockpiles purchased before the current price increases - when it's gone I'm probably out of the market.

[Zopharr]

Curious as to if the changes to the cultural gear have already happened or not. I have tried to follow along but being deployed can't get to this website everday. I have noticed that on Magelo and EQPlayers that still showing cultural can be 700+ hps/mana/end with just the LastBlood aug part being the only raid loot item. Will continue to reread all the posts to get more current on the issue. Thanks for the guidance and helping hand.

Changes not made - yet. May go through, may not.

Take care of yourself over there - Godspeed.

[Polt11]

Redo-Question about one of the Charts in the Cultural Proposed Change Thread

My old thread was answered and closed.

http://mboards.eqtraders.com/eq/showthread.php?t=31524

The problem is, I went to the link the mod posted as the "answer" to my question and there was NO change. What Ngreth had edited as an incorrect spreadsheet had no basis on my statement. My statement is that he provides no comparison of old L70/L75 to new L70/L75. He compares old L70/L75 to new L75/L75. There is no discussion anywhere in his thread about what happens if you have L70/L75. He just states where you will be with L75/L75, which is just +11 hps. He doesn't do this change of comparison elsewhere within his tables.

As it stands, he is stating that IF I take my old L70 armor and trash it, then buy new L75 armor and put it in with my existing L75 seal, that I'll end up with +11 hps over my old L70 armor with L75 seal. This means that the L70 armor is getting REDUCED in stats, or that the L75 armor is all of +11 hps better than the L70 armor.

Piece Average
Old L70/L75 AC HP/Mana/END
Base 57 290
Base + PoP 57 345
Base + GoD 67 410
Base + OoW 87 470
Base + DoD 102 500
Base + TSS 102 540
Base + TBS 102 590
Base + SOF 102 640

New L75/L75 AC HP/Mana/END Change
Base 59 301 +11
Base + PoP 59 326 -19
Base + GoD 69 351 -59
Base + OoW 89 376 -94
Base + DoD 104 401 -99
Base + TSS 104 451 -89
Base + TBS 104 526 -64
Base + SOF 104 601 -39

Polt, CT

[Zopharr]

75 Armor set is...underwhelming

My old thread was answered and closed.

http://mboards.eqtraders.com/eq/showthread.php?t=31524

-->snip<--As it stands, he is stating that IF I take my old L70 armor and trash it, then buy new L75 armor and put it in with my existing L75 seal, that I'll end up with +11 hps over my old L70 armor with L75 seal. This means that the L70 armor is getting REDUCED in stats, or that the L75 armor is all of +11 hps better than the L70 armor.

I haven't gone back to Ngreth's spreadsheets since last week - after the initial correction. If additional changes have been made, this may be off the mark, but...

The 75 armor set is underwhelming. From 70/75 to 75/75 we’re looking at a jump of…drum roll please…19 AC for the whole set. (The AC jump from 75 to 80 is 169 AC for a full set.)

The biggest virtue of the 7 December proposal was the implication of a 75 armor set that would be worth a darn, so folks who could not afford the jump from elaborate to sublime –especially with the drop-rate nerf (porous loam 450-500k a pop on Quellious) could get some sort of tradeskilled upgrade if they chose that route. But a total of 19AC/90 HP? This looks like ‘well, we said we’d do a 75 armor set, but now we really don’t want too – so we’re going to make it really poopy.’ (BTW, that is meant as a play on Woody’s GU comics – not a crack at the House Ogre.)

If the 75 set is to be worth anything, the AC needs to be tuned up so it is closer to midway between elaborate and sublime. Compared to a full set of Praetorian – with no powersources or purity augs - the 75/75 has 280 HP more, but is a full 75 AC behind. Toss a misty energeian elemental orb into the praetorian armor (still at 50% purity), and the 75/75 is 102 AC and 16 HP behind – and has no foci to boot. There should be room to add ~60-70 AC to the 75 armor, which coincidentally would make it much closer to midway between the elaborate and the sublime.

Right now the AC on the 75 armor set looks like a bad joke. If we are going to nerf porous loam drops into near extinction and nerf Last Bloods, let’s at least make it so that cultural wearers/tradeskillers who can’t afford a million plat per slot – you know, the majority of players – have a viable upgrade path. Unless the new design philosophy is to eventually kill off tradeskilled armor, in which case just tell us so we can move on.

Garshok

[Zacatac]

There is no discussion anywhere in his thread about what happens if you have L70/L75. He just states where you will be with L75/L75, which is just +11 hps. He doesn't do this change of comparison elsewhere within his tables.

But he did give you the spreadsheet with all the info in it, and you could have done the math yourself. Take the new 70/70 list, and add +280 hp/m/e (difference between 70 & 75 "new" symbol sets), or +35 per piece average.

Piece Average
Old  L70/L75     AC     HP/Mana/END
Base             57       290
Base + PoP       57       345
Base + GoD       67       410
Base + OoW       87       470
Base + DoD      102       500
Base + TSS      102       540
Base + TBS      102       590
Base + SOF      102       640

New  L70/L75    AC      HP/Mana/END      Change
Base            56        275             -15
Base + PoP      56        301             -44
Base + GoD      66        326             -84
Base + OoW      86        351             -119
Base + DoD     101        376             -124
Base + TSS     101        426             -114
Base + TBS     101        501             -89
Base + SOF     101        576             -64

Set Total
Old  L70/L75    AC      HP/Mana/END
Base           452        2320
Base + PoP     452        2760
Base + GoD     532        3280
Base + OoW     692        3760
Base + DoD     812        4000
Base + TSS     812        4320
Base + TBS     812        4720
Base + SOF     812        5120

New  L70/L75    AC      HP/Mana/END      Change
Base           453        2210            -110
Base + PoP     453        2410            -350
Base + GoD     533        2610            -670
Base + OoW     693        2810            -950
Base + DoD     813        3010            -990
Base + TSS     813        3410            -910
Base + TBS     813        4010            -710
Base + SOF     813        4330            -510

And yes, it looks like 70/75 combo will get hit the hardest. Which is unfortunate, because I know a lot of people are wearing that combo. They can't afford the 80 armor or sublime augs.

[Bobaten]

Which is a problem, because wearing 70 armor with a 75 symbol was a combination that we were intended to wear, and under the proposed changes it is no longer intended. It seems a bit harsh to punish the players who were following the intended path by requiring them to upgrade the other half of their armor set just to get to where they were before.

[Catweazel]

I'm waiting for draft proposal number 2, and then a further month of discussion, by which time we will be so far into the expansion we will be discussing level 85 impacts.

[Polt11]

But he did give you the spreadsheet with all the info in it, and you could have done the math yourself. Take the new 70/70 list, and add +280 hp/m/e (difference between 70 & 75 "new" symbol sets), or +35 per piece average.

Piece Average
Old  L70/L75     AC     HP/Mana/END
Base             57       290
Base + PoP       57       345
Base + GoD       67       410
Base + OoW       87       470
Base + DoD      102       500
Base + TSS      102       540
Base + TBS      102       590
Base + SOF      102       640

New  L70/L75    AC      HP/Mana/END      Change
Base            56        275             -15
Base + PoP      56        301             -44
Base + GoD      66        326             -84
Base + OoW      86        351             -119
Base + DoD     101        376             -124
Base + TSS     101        426             -114
Base + TBS     101        501             -89
Base + SOF     101        576             -64

Set Total
Old  L70/L75    AC      HP/Mana/END
Base           452        2320
Base + PoP     452        2760
Base + GoD     532        3280
Base + OoW     692        3760
Base + DoD     812        4000
Base + TSS     812        4320
Base + TBS     812        4720
Base + SOF     812        5120

New  L70/L75    AC      HP/Mana/END      Change
Base           453        2210            -110
Base + PoP     453        2410            -350
Base + GoD     533        2610            -670
Base + OoW     693        2810            -950
Base + DoD     813        3010            -990
Base + TSS     813        3410            -910
Base + TBS     813        4010            -710
Base + SOF     813        4330            -510

And yes, it looks like 70/75 combo will get hit the hardest. Which is unfortunate, because I know a lot of people are wearing that combo. They can't afford the 80 armor or sublime augs.

I don't open spreadsheets or other files from online sources but you are correct that I could have done so at home. I do thank you for putting this together, I had hoped to motivate Ngreth to post this as an edit to his existing post. I had exptected based on my impression that this set was getting a nerf, but I had problems reconciling that as it was, I figured, the most likely set for the majority to be wearing right now. Ngreth has to know that the L70/L75 set is in NO way breaking anyone's view on RvR, nor is it breaking any content at all. Decreasing it's value makes no sense at all. If this chart ever becomes part of the original post and people happen to re-review that post, there will be even more complaining as this change doesn't make any sense.

Polt