Cultural Changes - Proposed Change Examples

[Aldier]

I stated they did drop in Tier 3 zones. My statement still stands as to the drop rate, though. While a group of T2/Praetorian geared non-raiders could go into a Tier 3 zone and hunt the drops, what possible reason would they have? Currently the armor is not as good as Tier 3. With the proposed change it would be about the equivalent of Tier 3 with the exception of some Mod2's and and Foci. With the possible exception of tanks, the level 80/80 armor holds either no or only transient benefits even when you factor in the soon (hopefully) to be released Type 12 Single Group Seals (which has been stated will NOT have foci). They WILL concentrate on the steamcores.

I do not agree that Elegant + Sublime armor is inferior Tier 3 group armor stat wise. Focus wise, you are correct, you cannot get the focus effects, but other than that, it seems, at least to me and from the Tier 3 group armor I have seen, that they are fairly well balanced. Again, that is their choice to focus on these drops or on the steamcores. The idea is to not have cultural be so good that everyone has to have it. At the same time, it should not be so weak that no one wants it. It is about alternatives and choices of what you want to hunt.

[Twistagain]

I do not agree that Elegant + Sublime armor is inferior Tier 3 group armor stat wise.

Can you specify what you mean by Tier 3 armor? As far as I can tell, Elegant + Sublime is slightly better (or at least a tradeoff) than Tier 2 armor (Scratched Hide, for instance) and quite a bit lesser than that same armor upgraded with a Steam Core. Is that the Tier 3 armor?

Or am I getting my "Tiers" confused??

[Aldier]

Tier 3 group armor is group armor obtained from Tier 3 SOF zones. That would be with a steamcore.


Scratched Hide Leggings
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM ATTUNEABLE
Slot: LEGS
Purity: 50
AC: 58
STR: +22 DEX: +19 STA: +5 CHA: +24 WIS: +7 INT: +8 AGI: +16 HP: +315 MANA: +315 ENDUR: +320
SV FIRE: +15 SV DISEASE: +19 SV COLD: +19 SV MAGIC: +18 SV POISON: +14
Shielding: +1% Avoidance: +6 Accuracy: +2 Stun Resist: +1% Strikethrough: +1% DoT Shielding: +1% Attack: +15 Regeneration: +3 Damage Shield: +3
Recommended level of 80. Required level of 75.
Effect: Ferocity III (Worn, Casting Time: Instant)
Focus: Zealotry of the Moonfang I
WT: 1.4 Size: LARGE
Class: DRU MNK BST
Race: ALL except ERU HIE DEF DWF GNM FRG

Don't have full stats on me, but Elegant legs + Sublime aug is 400 hp/mana, has heroic stats and is superior to the above piece stat wise. It lacks the focus effects though. It is similar though to the steam core'd armor from Tier 3 group named mobs. Druid legs shown below for comparison.

Druadic Hide Leggings
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE
Slot: LEGS
Purity: 50
AC: 69
STR: +14 DEX: +18 STA: +20 CHA: +11 WIS: +18 INT: +8 AGI: +24 HP: +415 MANA: +430
SV FIRE: +19 SV DISEASE: +13 SV COLD: +19 SV MAGIC: +19 SV POISON: +25
Shielding: +1% Spell Shield: +1% Avoidance: +6 Stun Resist: +1% Regeneration: +2 Mana Regeneration: +2
Required level of 80.
Focus: Zealotry of the Moonfang I
WT: 1.5 Size: LARGE
Class: DRU
Race: HUM ELF HEF HFL DRK
Slot 1, Type 7
Slot 2, Type 13

For pure groupers, you would then need to look at the Crystallos group obtainable Type 12 aug compared to the next level of upgrades to the Scratched hide armor with the T4 group essences. They are similar but you are right, if you just doing group armor, the steam cores appear better with a focus but this is 1 comparison and doesn't mean all classes/slots.

[mofrackey]

Well look at my T4 group armor with a 90 90 + cor aug from AG and +20 purity aug from TBS with a light power source.

Necrotic Kaleidosilk Sleeves
Ac 53
Hps 629 mana 659 End 39 purity 70
Str 29+3 Magic 34
Sta 44+4 Fire 39
Int 20+2 cold 46
Wis 16 Disease 32
Agi 27 Poison 34
Dex 35+2 cor 15
Cha 32+2

Hp regen 2 mana regen 3 sheilding 2 dot sheild 1 avoidance 3 stun resist 1 heal amount 2 clervoyance 4

Focus effect : merciless Incineration III 45 % @ lvl 80 fire dammage

What would you rather have i know all tank types are going to say cultral for the AC but probabally 90 % of everyone else if gonna say that because the focus and stats are really close. This is with a light Powersource i ususally use shadow with is - sta and str - like 70 hps and it ends up being the same resists + int and the rest and like 699 mana.

Im my opinion the cultral isnt off balance at all " mabe the ac thats it" if this is " group armor " you do need a raid force to make cultral. you only need a group to get that.

[Woland]

mofrackey,

Can you imagine situation where developers feel that gap between raid and group obtainable gear is just too big?

The largest segment of EQ population are people that do not raid. What sort of carrot would developers like to show these paying players to keep them interested?

Would they consider giving them better gear than a low end raiders? Why not. How about Mid Tier raider? Why not.

Lets say they made this gear that balances against Mid Tier raiders. Now Mid Tier raiders complain. We want better. Well if developers give Mid Tier raiders better than they just did not accomplish what they started out to do.

This is our issue. Group gear is not designed for you. It is pointless to compare. You find something that you can use in groupable gear go out and get it but you will lose argument trying to have Demi or TSS or Solteris gear more powerful.

Understand?

[Aldier]

Well look at my T4 group armor with a 90 90 + cor aug from AG and +20 purity aug from TBS with a light power source.

Necrotic Kaleidosilk Sleeves
Ac 53
Hps 629 mana 659 End 39 purity 70
Str 29+3 Magic 34
Sta 44+4 Fire 39
Int 20+2 cold 46
Wis 16 Disease 32
Agi 27 Poison 34
Dex 35+2 cor 15
Cha 32+2

Hp regen 2 mana regen 3 sheilding 2 dot sheild 1 avoidance 3 stun resist 1 heal amount 2 clervoyance 4

Focus effect : merciless Incineration III 45 % @ lvl 80 fire dammage

What would you rather have i know all tank types are going to say cultral for the AC but probabally 90 % of everyone else if gonna say that because the focus and stats are really close. This is with a light Powersource i ususally use shadow with is - sta and str - like 70 hps and it ends up being the same resists + int and the rest and like 699 mana.

Im my opinion the cultral isnt off balance at all " mabe the ac thats it" if this is " group armor " you do need a raid force to make cultral. you only need a group to get that.

Again, I do not have enough time atm to do a full and thorough evaluation of GROUP armor from Tier 2, 3, and 4 group gear from SoF to compare with Cultural. All I am saying is that the Elegant + Sublime was presented as being comparable to Tier 3 group armor. Then there is a Crystallos quest/tradeskill drop that can be used to create a Type 12 GROUP augment that is designed as the bridge to bring Elegant + Sublime in line with the rest of the T4 group armor.

The issue now facing cultural changes, and this I think is part of the problem is differing opinions on this, should T4 SoF group armor be better than cultural with an OLD raid aug?

That is a nice item you have. I do not know if the type 12 group augment from Crystallos has a focus effect or not. I am not even sure it has been found yet. Again, the developers look at cultural in 2 different ways. It should be balanced as GROUP armor as armor+symbol and then it needs to be balanced as RAID armor as armor+symbol+seal. Juggling these 2 things is where the decision to make a change to cultural is coming from, as best I can understand what the developers are thinking/looking at.

Again, I am not 100% sure what you mean, but yes, this nerf that is currently proposed, in my opinion is stomachable by some tanks in that they are not losing any ac, but will lose hp and is devastating to casters/priests and anyone else that does not care about ac.

[Woland]

As much as you would like,

There is just no way to make connection between T4 group and 80/80/LB.

There has never been a word about how these two are related.

There is no way to say T4 should or should not be better than Solteris gear.

You are trying to cross over from T4 to raid gear, raid Seal.

You cannot because developers never gave us a relation we can use.

There are plenty of relations about Cultural armor + Raid Seal with raid gear.

If you want to be consistent and make an argument you need to use these relations.

[Zacatac]

In my opinion, changes to make should be more along the following -

Remove some HP from Aug, put some on the gear for better balance.
Let's say -90 from the Aug, and add +50 to the gear, net -40 per piece at most.

Then, remove 15 AC from the Armor piece, and add the following-
Last blood: 45ac
Serpent: 50ac (+5)
Sunshard 55ac (+10)
Faycite 60ac (+15)

Net result is -15 AC per piece if you are using LB or lower, but you can gain some back by upgrading the Type 12, up to +15 on the latest one and balance out.

It balances out the issue with AC, while providing a progression path to get the AC back (currently all 4 augs have same AC).

[Woland]

AC will not change.

We were told as much, many times.

AC affects 3 classes, it is less of an issue.

[Zacatac]

AC will not change.

We were told as much, many times.

AC affects 3 classes, it is less of an issue.

You were not told "many times", Ngreth posted once, last Friday, the proposed changes.

This whole thing started because of warriors complaining about AC values, and now everyone is getting nerfed.

Here is a quote from the SoE board, and one of the handful of warriors who want nerfs -

It's a sufficient enough problem for the devs to take notice. Sufficient enough for Devs to post proposed changes.

The only question is the degree of the proposed changes right and fair. They aren't. They do not address the large amount of AC of any tradeskill armor with Last Blood augs - a problem noted by devs in the past and one that needs to be dealt with now.

I'm simply trying to provide input to make the proposed changes more consistant with the actual problem. Less hp/mana isn't really the issue.

[Maevenniia]

Again, I am not 100% sure what you mean, but yes, this nerf that is currently proposed, in my opinion is stomachable by some tanks in that they are not losing any ac, but will lose hp and is devastating to casters/priests and anyone else that does not care about ac.

YET, the whole hoopla started because the elites were seeing non-endgame tanks in the top ranks of the leaderboards due to high AC....

YET, AC is the one thing NOT being nerfed on Last Bloods!

/sigh

Fix the AC since that's what the elite tanks were kvetching about, and leave everything else alone.

[hiyawathadan]

Even though I am considered an AC junkie by many people's standards, I would rather see AC on LBs and below nerfed instead of the HPs/Mana/End. If I want to continue to be an AC junkie, I will get better AC augs is all.

[Aldier]

As much as you would like,

There is just no way to make connection between T4 group and 80/80/LB.

There has never been a word about how these two are related.

There is no way to say T4 should or should not be better than Solteris gear.

You are trying to cross over from T4 to raid gear, raid Seal.

You cannot because developers never gave us a relation we can use.

There are plenty of relations about Cultural armor + Raid Seal with raid gear.

If you want to be consistent and make an argument you need to use these relations.

What I am trying to get at is that a nerf to the LB and Bazu seals is going to make it so Tier 3 group gear + an old raid augment is potentially weaker than Tier 4 group gear.

If that is the way that SOE devs want it, then that is what it will be. I am simply stating that T4 group gear as a level of gear would be a point of comparison of interest to me, and probably others.

If my LBs are going to make it so even the 80/80/LB is weaker than T4 group gear, then there is no reason for me to try and get 80/80 armor, just get T4 group gear until I get a raid drop that is better. If T4 Group gear is better than 80/80/Serpent augs (or comparable in stats) it might be a toss up between what I go for. All I am saying is more information would be helpful to make a decision as to WHAT loots I want to try to get.

[Aldier]

YET, the whole hoopla started because the elites were seeing non-endgame tanks in the top ranks of the leaderboards due to high AC....

YET, AC is the one thing NOT being nerfed on Last Bloods!

/sigh

Fix the AC since that's what the elite tanks were kvetching about, and leave everything else alone.

I was trying to refrain from sounding like another casual/mid-tier vs elites post and see that there IS more to it than just they are whining. If this waits another month, then the elites will start seeing the loots that is coming their way and will be way out in front of everyone again and that side of the issue can go away.

[Leana]

I already made my decision. I've looted my last Last Blood. I have no desire to put any more effort into something that will have what I consider negative return. I'm not a tank, so I don't have to worry about AC issues, and T4 armor is superior in my opinion. I look forward to the clickies for the breastplate.