Cultural Changes - Proposed Change Examples

[mofrackey]

A lot of what danille said is the truth. i was looking at them and own a tailored caster robe at the current time. Because its so hard to attain a raid caster robe and plan to add TSS det spell haste to it as soon as i can due to how hard it is to get that. Not because it has more AC or mana its a very very usefull option. Not that i dont like the way it looks at its current state.

Honestly they are disreguarding all the high end mods that go along with the the higher level gear. Not to mention the end game augments you can add to them " wich was also being left out of that thread" vrs haveing to use a slot 7 aug on tailored. Then there is the matter of the raid powersource that goes along with end game gear that tailored doesnt use " that was mostly left out of that discussion or when it was brought up basicly ignored"

Basicly mad because of what dan said filtering the leader boards and not seeing themselves the best even though they still are and cry about it.

I would have if you MUST change it that the AC from DoD foward scales upward but leave the current hps and mana alone. This would probably fix their bickering to some degree. Reason behind this is what was mentioned above haveing those low level mods hurt more than help if your useing them as a primary mod. Basicly you have more mana but still use more than say a caster geared with TSS mods because the sheer volume of dammage is lower and mana preservation.

I think the idia to put this stuff in in the first place was good. I have seen a lot of people comming back to the game, grouping more, getting better groups, progressing out of older content wich is what im shure it was intended for so the lower side of the community can have fun playing the game again and not just the top people on the servers who have the raid stuff.

This is not going to hurt any of them the high end raiders my guild is probabally ranked second on my server we arnt bothered by it one bit. We are still going on our progressive path threw the game like it was never even there. Simply because we know we need the dps mods to beat the next up content like it has been for years and years.

Its really discurageing to read some of that stuff there and see that people are soo single minded and jealous about something that clearly helps everyone. With total disreguard to anyone else but themselves.

Like i said if they are bickering the AC is do high man lower the DoD seals AC keep the hps and mana the same and then scale them all upwards from there. The people bickering haven't even had a chance to see some of the new really really OMG lookie items yet so in given time when they finally beat some of this stuff they will quit bickering about this crafted stuff. I am shure that you didnt make any mistake when you created these items. Also im shure these crafted items look totally silly sitting next to some of those crystallos raid items. But untill the fatheads get some of those they will continue their banter.

[Niami DenMother]

Folks, I'm going to interject with a reminder here before yet another thread degenerates.

I know Nolrog posted this so there are more eyes on it, but the actual feedback needs to go over in the SOE forums, not here.

I've rewritten the following several times already, so bear with me - I'm in full redhead hissy fit mode and trying to stay calm.

You may/may not have a "right" to be upset about changes to the game, with whatever level of empowerment you feel from your subscription fees, etc. I won't bandy semantics and such over how each of you deals with/reacts to SOE.

You have ZERO right to bash ANYONE here. You've the right to be treated with respect, as long as you, in turn, show respect, but while posting here, you WILL respect site rules or you will not be allowed to post. I don't care if it is a snide comment about devs having their heads up their nether regions, or wondering what they're smoking, or something more personal against a single dev, etc. That stuff has never been welcome here, it will NOT be welcome here as long as I am owner of the site, and folks have been slipping in more than one instance, more and more around here.

It was hard enough to juggle things *before* they hired Ngreth, but since then, folks have been treating this site more and more as their personal space to get messages to SOE. It isn't.

This is not the time to see how much you can push the limits of the rules for this site, regardless of how upset you are.

Please, keep that in mind when you post on the EQTC forums.

~Mum

[wayshaper]

ive seen alot of posts on how this armor compares to raid armor

what about how this armor compares to "group" armor (i used paladin as im a highelf blacksmith and make highelf moonglade armor)
------------------------------------------------------
Dragons of Norrathe, orginal release stats (guessin that this set will get a few more ac and bunch more hp prolly around 105ac and 190 hp)
Elaborate Moonglade Cuirass
AC: 99 (guesstimate of upgrade to 105ac)
STR: +17 STA: +18 WIS: +18 INT: +18 AGI: +15 HP: +145 MANA: +145 ENDUR: +145 (guesstimate of 190hp/mana/end)
SV FIRE: +13 SV COLD: +13 SV MAGIC: +10 SV POISON +7 SV DISEASE +7
Mana Regeneration: +2 Damage Shield: +2
Recommended level of 69. Required level of 65.
Slot 1, Type 7 (General: Group)
Slot 2, Type 11 (Cultural: Deity)Eminent Chest Symbol of Growth
WT: 0.0 Size: SMALL
STR: +13 DEX: +12 STA: +13 CHA: +12 WIS: +13 INT: +13 AGI: +12 HP: +105 MANA: +105 ENDUR: +105
SV FIRE: +7 SV DISEASE: +7 SV COLD: +7 SV MAGIC: +4 SV POISON: +7
Mana Regeneration: +2 Damage Shield: +2
Slot 3, Type 12 (Cultural: Raid)

------------------------------------------------

Group Armor from Dragons of Norrathe
Plate Vest of the First Order
AC: 72
DEX: +12 STA: +12 WIS: +12 INT: +12 AGI: +12 HP: +125 MANA: +120 ENDUR: +120
SV FIRE: +13 SV DISEASE: +13 SV COLD: +13 SV POISON: +13
Required level of 70.
Slot 1, Type 7 (General: Group)
Slot 2, Type 9 (General: Dragon Points)

--------------------------------------------
Group Armor from Prophecy of Ro

Redeemer's Breastplate
AC: 87
STR: +15 DEX: +13 STA: +22 WIS: +20 HP: +155 MANA: +140
SV DISEASE: +20 SV MAGIC: +20 SV POISON: +15
Shielding: +2% Attack: +30 HP Regen: +3 Mana Regeneration: +3
Recommended level of 70. Required level of 68.
Effect: Pious Cleansing (Any Slot/Can Equip, Casting Time: 0.8) at Level 68
Recast Delay: 420 seconds, Recast Type: 8
Class: PAL
Slot 1, Type 7 (General: Group)

----------------------------------------------------
Group Armor from The Serpents Spine (yea yea, i know this is 75 armor)

Silver-Scribed Plate Breastplate
AC: 97
STR: +12 DEX: +12 STA: +12 WIS: +12 AGI: +12 HP: +240 MANA: +240
SV FIRE: +12 SV DISEASE: +12 SV COLD: +12 SV MAGIC: +12 SV POISON: +12
Shielding: +3% Attack: +25 HP Regen: +3 Mana Regeneration: +3
Recommended level of 75. Required level of 71.
Effect: Ward of the Scribe (Any Slot/Can Equip, Casting Time: 1.0) at Level 75
Recast Delay: 900 seconds, Recast Type: -1
Slot 1, Type 7 (General: Group)

----------------------------------------------------------
Group Armor from the Burried Sea (i used the lv 70 armor for comparison)

Smuggler's Energeiac Plate Breastplate
Purity: 40
AC: 92
STR: +6 DEX: +6 STA: +6 CHA: +6 WIS: +6 INT: +6 AGI: +6 HP: +145 MANA: +145 ENDUR: +145
SV FIRE: +4 SV DISEASE: +4 SV COLD: +4 SV MAGIC: +4 SV POISON: +4
Attack: +30 HP Regen: +3 Mana Regeneration: +3
Recommended level of 70. Required level of 65.
Effect: Ferocity I (Worn, Casting Time: Instant)
Slot 1, Type 7 (General: Group)

-------------------------------------------------------------

The Buried Sea (toss in the lv 75 group based armor for comparison)

Citizen's Energeiac Plate Breastplate
Purity: 45
AC: 97
STR: +9 DEX: +9 STA: +9 CHA: +9 WIS: +9 INT: +9 AGI: +9 HP: +210 MANA: +210 ENDUR: +210
SV FIRE: +10 SV DISEASE: +10 SV COLD: +10 SV MAGIC: +10 SV POISON: +10
Shielding: +3% Spell Shield: +2% DoT Shielding: +2% Attack: +35 HP Regen: +4 Mana Regeneration: +4
Recommended level of 75. Required level of 70.
Effect: Ferocity II (Worn, Casting Time: Instant)
Slot 1, Type 7 (General: Group)

[Xenephex]

Folks, I'm going to interject with a reminder here before yet another thread degenerates.

I know Nolrog posted this so there are more eyes on it, but the actual feedback needs to go over in the SOE forums, not here.

I've rewritten the following several times already, so bear with me - I'm in full redhead hissy fit mode and trying to stay calm.

You may/may not have a "right" to be upset about changes to the game, with whatever level of empowerment you feel from your subscription fees, etc. I won't bandy semantics and such over how each of you deals with/reacts to SOE.

You have ZERO right to bash ANYONE here. You've the right to be treated with respect, as long as you, in turn, show respect, but while posting here, you WILL respect site rules or you will not be allowed to post. I don't care if it is a snide comment about devs having their heads up their nether regions, or wondering what they're smoking, or something more personal against a single dev, etc. That stuff has never been welcome here, it will NOT be welcome here as long as I am owner of the site, and folks have been slipping in more than one instance, more and more around here.

It was hard enough to juggle things *before* they hired Ngreth, but since then, folks have been treating this site more and more as their personal space to get messages to SOE. It isn't.

This is not the time to see how much you can push the limits of the rules for this site, regardless of how upset you are.

Please, keep that in mind when you post on the EQTC forums.

~Mum

If anything I posted came across as a negative against the devs (and in re-reading I think it probably did), then I sincerely apologize.

And If I contributed toward raising your ire, Denmum, then I am very, very sorry. My gratitude toward you and Ngreth for starting and maintaining this site is beyond my ability to express. Quite simply I would never have been able to do tradeskills for all these years without this site. EQTraders has always been one of the very best things about EQ.

[hiyawathadan]

I am one of the ones who is using Last Bloods with the Elegant and Sublime. I thought that AC was one of the reasons for this nerf in the first place? If anything is to be nerfed, I would say ease back on nerfing the HP(75 for a bazu seal? Not even worth the effort) and maybe knock some AC off.

Personally, however, I think the extremely-reduced droprates are working, as I see hardly any of the loam, marrow and exquisite fluid for sale, and when it is, it's way too expensive to mess with as fizzles are deadly at 400k a pop.

Ngreth. Leave it alone. I am begging you. If the Devs want to make a change, give the guys who are most upset a bump in their stats, don't make 90% of the game players suffer so that they can stay elite. I know that sounds negative, it's not intended to be, but lets call a spade a spade, this all started because the top raiders in game complained.

[Anterouk]

As I suggested in the Primal Scream thread the only fair way to do this is to roll back servers 3 years completely remove LB and equiv from game, until a balanced tskill armour can be implemented and tested. And make the whining elitist gits go through all the content again without the bumped ac the lastblood/Bazu gave them, that their epeens wont let anyone else make use of.

[Woland]

I very much support adjustment to New Cultural armor be it through adjustment in Seals and/or Armor/Symbol.

I do understand disappointment of those who have gotten new armor at current stats but I ask you to please understand that this was an unreasonable situation that will create major issues as time goes on.

Losing 100 HP/Mana off current set up seems over the top but you also need to at least remind yourselves that you have gained a lot more than that. If new cultural armor is to be a reasonable alternative, and not just the only way to go, it needs to be balanced against other gear in progression.

If SoF is to raise all boats in Mid Tear raiding it cannot be so selective as to push gear of small number of players by a large amount and leave rest with nothing.

The most beneficial situation for everyone is to adjust New Cultural Armor down approximately. 100 HP/Mana and at the same time increase the flow of Seals. This means each event in Demi, TSS, Solteris should drop a Seal. The armor created each step of the way would still be better than zone drops by virtue of mixing higher level armor with lower level Seal.

This in turn requires that armor be more available and not mindlessly overpriced as it is now. Introducing 75 armor would be a major step in the right direction as would be increasing drop of rare Exquisit/Porous TS components. This would mean that a Demi/DK raider can affordably create 75/75/LB armor that will be a solid boost to Demi armor and just behind TSS armor. 80/80/LB armor would be better than TSS armor. Same would be true with TSS armor, 80/80/Serpant would be a nice boost over TSS armor.

This to me seams like a better alternative, it would add more HP/Mana to a raid force than the current situation and not create disparity between peers.

[Aaneras]

Woland, you've made it crystal clear on the Sony page that you detest cultural armor as a concept. Please don't be disingenuous - you don't like the armor and want it crippled so that when you personally skip it you don't feel as if you're missing something. Do you want me to pull quotes over here? Good luck on getting anyone to go through the agony of a AAAA combine for a 75 HP augment, by the way.

This is a change that was made by the developers on behalf of a small group of players that they have become far too close to. A handful of endgame tanks successfully campaigned the developers to reduce the gear of people behind them. It isn't just that the developers adopted the language and metrics of the Solteris + guilds. It's that they generate thousands of comments and ignored the entire lot of them. They didn't even have the courtesy to acknowledge them. Even the "armor set" idea, which was explicitly contradicted by developer quotes, was retained.

When combined with the jewelcraft changes this will be a deathblow to the tradeskill economy, and it will cost SoE plenty of accounts. I don't play a game to get angry tells from people who think I've somehow cheated them, nor do I spend months of effort knowing that the rewards are at the mercy - not of developers - but of players further along in progression who want to ensure that the peons stay in their place.

There have been plenty of questions raised about other forms of balance (hello SoF group and raid gear..) and plenty of alternatives floated. But no one is listening on the other end, so there is no point in raising them.

[Woland]

Aaneras,

I am neither hater nor someone who never used Cultural armor. I have made hundreds of Instructions over the past 3 years and have some interest as a tradeskiller (I also make Ink and Parchments).

Your position is unreasonable. You will argue anything to keep what is an honest mistake. There is no sense in producing armor with LB that devalues every other drop before SoF. This is just not a good situation.

I am unsure how a situation where 80/80/LB produces a 500ish gear is detrimental to someone who never had access to anything near 400ish gear. I am certain that if what is now offered as a downgrade was suggested from day 1 no one would complain.

The insistence on class warfare is so banal and so out of place that it makes me sick. I am sure there are Higher End raiders that have helped you along the way. I myself have been to hundreds of 2.0 fights with no other benefit but to feel helpful to others. I also participated in numerous pick ups and Blood AA flagging raids that never benefited me in any way. You are so out of line trying to suggest that I wish to keep anyone down or in an inferior situation. You use this High End vs everyone mantra as a distraction to keep what you know you should not have gotten.

[Anterouk]

Given that the problem has only been highlighted by the introduction of the Exalted and Sublime symbols with their huge jump of HP over the eminent any nerf should hit there first, rather than the LB/Bazu aug that have been ingame for 3 years?

From memory Eminent symbols range from 80hp-110hp(and mana/end), where as Exalted jump to 250ish? and sublime to 330ish? surely a steadier progression to these taking exalted to 170sih and sublime to 240ish and leaving the armour(maybe introduce the lvl 75 armour at a mid point between GM and elegant) and the seals as they are.

The main proponents of a nerf are high end Tanks who have been using LB/Bazu seals in their current form to beat events that they may not have beaten without them. They are complaining because casuals have a chance to catch up, going around in grp armour around the 350mark(woot slightly above SOF grp drops in Tier 1+2). Yes the additional seals take the armour close to TBS raid gear, but only with an added raid component, that they themselves have been using for 3 years, but the concerns have only been risen about the Tskill armour since the introduction of the overpower lvl 75 and 80 symbols.

[hiyawathadan]

Actually, the 100hp/mana/end loss is not exactly right, it's 100hp/mana/end PER PIECE. I personally will be losing a shade under 800 HP/End(Warrior here, so my mana is as useless as breasts on a bull)

I guess to me, the biggest issue is that the people who are losing these stats are also out of luck on DKP, as most guilds(mine did) charged DKP to loot the Last Bloods. So all that DKP needs to be adjusted. Plus, any raider will tell you, smart people plan their upgrades, their DKP spending way in advance, they come up with a sort of roadmap on what things they will upgrade and with what. Now all that has to be scrapped for many people including myself.

It's a case of going back on their positions on the equipment working as intended to satisfy a hugely vocal yet very TINY minority. They are tuning the cultural, seals, ect, because the elites complained.

South Africa tried running it's government by minority rule, it didn't work too well if I recall.

The funniest part is, as a tradeskiller, I would likely make a good buck on the new median set of armor they want to introduce, but I don't care about plat. I tradeskill for fun, people who do it for plat are like teachers who teach for their summers off. They end up being terrible teachers.

[Aldier]

You will argue anything to keep what is an honest mistake. There is no sense in producing armor with LB that devalues every other drop before SoF. This is just not a good situation.

An honest mistake? Which part are you considering the mistake? Making the ac on Last Bloods too high 3 years ago? Not listening to the people in beta questioning if the stats were too high? Stating for 2 months after SOF went live that the stats were reviewed and "as intended"? The only mistake I can see is that the issue brought up by the top end raid tanks was that the cultural had too much ac and a bit high hp. The solution proposed here is to INCREASE the ac and decrease the hp a lot. This does not solve the issue of "too much ac on the cultural armor with seals. It also neglects the non-tank classes that do not care about ac. The seals could have no ac and for non-tanks it would not be a big deal.

I am unsure how a situation where 80/80/LB produces a 500ish gear is detrimental to someone who never had access to anything near 400ish gear. I am certain that if what is now offered as a downgrade was suggested from day 1 no one would complain.

You are probably right. On the day that SOF released, if they had changed around the sets of armor/drops to appropriate levels, there would not be as big of a stir, there probably would still have been one, always is someone complaining about something. BUT, because they came out and stated POST launch of SOF, we have reviewed the armor stats and it is "working as intended" is the issue. Why the sudden change? What changed that they no longer feel that this is "working as intended"? Also, you can get 400+ and 500+ gear in group. So for it to "never had access to anything near 400ish" would mean that Tier 3 and 4 SOF group gear could not exist as it currently does either. The fact that 80/80 is Tier 3 group armor (supposedly comparable) and has a spot for a lower level raid aug, it SHOULD be better than anything they have seen. Tier 3 group gear is 400 hp/mana.

The insistence on class warfare is so banal and so out of place that it makes me sick. I am sure there are Higher End raiders that have helped you along the way. I myself have been to hundreds of 2.0 fights with no other benefit but to feel helpful to others. I also participated in numerous pick ups and Blood AA flagging raids that never benefited me in any way. You are so out of line trying to suggest that I wish to keep anyone down or in an inferior situation.

I applaud your benevolence and your giving nature. If those are not for guild members then you must be viewed as a saint by those you helped.

You use this High End vs everyone mantra as a distraction to keep what you know you should not have gotten.

WOW. You just lost all your credibility with this sentence. You believe people got something they should not have gotten, that they do not deserve? Who are you to sit and judge us. We pay to play the same game you do. The developers said this is working as intended. That means we SHOULD have gotten it. The fact that a few high end tanks got their feathers ruffled because they for a brief moment were not (/gasp) number 1 on the leaderboards, they are nerfing the entire rest of the playerbase. They are known for pushing the envelope and blazing into new territory and within a month will have so much new gear that blows away everything ever seen and then some and will have their coveted leaderboard rankings again that none of this will matter.

[Aldier]

I guess to me, the biggest issue is that the people who are losing these stats are also out of luck on DKP, as most guilds(mine did) charged DKP to loot the Last Bloods. So all that DKP needs to be adjusted. Plus, any raider will tell you, smart people plan their upgrades, their DKP spending way in advance, they come up with a sort of roadmap on what things they will upgrade and with what. Now all that has to be scrapped for many people including myself.

...

The funniest part is, as a tradeskiller, I would likely make a good buck on the new median set of armor they want to introduce, but I don't care about plat. I tradeskill for fun, people who do it for plat are like teachers who teach for their summers off. They end up being terrible teachers.

That is not something SOE should really care about. Your guild has its own system for determining if they will use DKP and how much each piece is used for. The fact that the items are nerfed, is up to your individual guild/alliance to determine if they wish to return DKP to people who chose to loot LBs over other armor.

I think the 75 armor will be helpful to tradeskillers as well as it will provide a reasonably priced alternative to crafted armor without having to jump to the price and trivial levels of Elegant/Sublime. When SOF came out, I was a bit shocked that there would be a symbol set without an armor set.

[Sharrien]

From my perspective, this proposed change could not have come at a worse time. We are raiding demi, ToB and starting to look at FC raids right now. The last bloods that are coming in now provide good upgrades that we will need to progress through the next tier of raiding. It's very frustrating that the people who are complaining and driving this nerf got to enjoy the full advantage of having last blood augs (while the foci were worth it no less). Now that they are done using them, they suddenly feel that the ac/hp on those augs are too high and they have convinced the devs that something has to be done about this "new" balance problem.

The ones who are complaining are the ones who have access to the TSS/TBS/SOF augs and have better armor sets anyway. I do not understand why it is necessary to go back and change content that is three expansions old. I wish the top tier raiders would just concentrate on their own game and let us mid-tier raiders and casuals enjoy our own game too.

[Catweazel]

Given that the problem has only been highlighted by the introduction of the Exalted and Sublime symbols with their huge jump of HP over the eminent any nerf should hit there first, rather than the LB/Bazu aug that have been ingame for 3 years?

From memory Eminent symbols range from 80hp-110hp(and mana/end), where as Exalted jump to 250ish? and sublime to 330ish? surely a steadier progression to these taking exalted to 170sih and sublime to 240ish and leaving the armour(maybe introduce the lvl 75 armour at a mid point between GM and elegant) and the seals as they are.

The main proponents of a nerf are high end Tanks who have been using LB/Bazu seals in their current form to beat events that they may not have beaten without them. They are complaining because casuals have a chance to catch up, going around in grp armour around the 350mark(woot slightly above SOF grp drops in Tier 1+2). Yes the additional seals take the armour close to TBS raid gear, but only with an added raid component, that they themselves have been using for 3 years, but the concerns have only been risen about the Tskill armour since the introduction of the overpower lvl 75 and 80 symbols.

The issue is far more complex.

SOF was released as a balanced expansion with certain goals in mind with respect to player and mob capability along with adjustments to many game mechanics (specifically mob ac and atk values).

Prior to SOF, TBS had attempted to bring group available gear up to Anguish level (where the bulk of players - the mid tier - lived). Personally I am not certain that the designers achieved their goals.

With SOF, the intent was to (without mincing words) obsolete Anguish and match Demi. The problem here is that Demi was a very minor improvement gear wise versus Anguish - and yet SOF was a major increase in difficulty. The end result was that SOF itemization at the bulk playerbase part of the game had to take a much bigger jump in capability, spread it out over 12 months and try and move the playerbase into TSS level armor as a whole without losing the reasons to continue to progress through Demi. With all of this in mind, designs were created and the balance looked good.

Unfortunately, cultural drops refused to join in with the rest of the design decisions and insisted on dropping early and in the wrong places. All of a sudden the planned rate of entry into the game of "appropriate gear for the content" got royally screwed up.

A previous bug with Last Bloods came back to haunt the developers. Who seriously believes that the furor from high end tanks would have been so vocal if AC on Last Bloods was 35AC from the start?

The problem that exists today takes all of the above, adds in emotion and troublemakers and then leaves it to fester for 3 months.

What the playerbase do not know is where exactly SOE development really want the game to be at this point in time and in 6 to 12 months. No-one except SOE knows what their balance goals are. We are asked to provide feedback in a vacuum. Should Cultural rival raid gear if it has a raid aug? If yes - which level of raid gear? If Cultural is meant to be equivalent to the best available group gear in SOF - then why bother having a raid item in it?

Whatever cliche or proverb you want to use - it is probably relevant. It is a house of cards or a game of jenga - and making the wrong decision now could have serious consequences. The longer SOE waits without a decision the more likely they will do nothing in my opinion. All I know is that I do not envy the House Ogre - but equally I have no idea what to offer in the way of help.