Death to the RNG!

[Dea]

So when I went to do the tinkering mastery quest I failed twice making stalking probes at 300 skill, it is trivial so I should not be failing!

/hide

And the darwin award goes to Nilbus for his fine example of ogre baiting!!

Dea

[KyrosKrane]

For those not familiar with the reference: http://www.darwinawards.com/

The Darwin Awards: Honoring those who improve the species...by accidentally removing themselves from it!

The stories are usually hilarious ... to a neutral observer, of course. Not so much to the protagonists.

[Gaell Stormracer]

Strictly speaking, it's just removing themselves from the gene pool... which doesn't necessarily need them to be dead, just incapable of reproducing...

[Bara]

Strictly speaking, it's just removing themselves from the gene pool... which doesn't necessarily need them to be dead, just incapable of reproducing...

Ouch!!

[Gaell Stormracer]

http://darwinawards.com/darwin/darwin2005-14.html

[gggrant]

So when I went to do the tinkering mastery quest I failed twice making stalking probes at 300 skill, it is trivial so I should not be failing!

/hide

pffft, I blow nofail combines and salvage a flask of water (even the recipes that don't have water in them).

[Alfonse Auburnleaf]

I would be OK with what you proposed there Ngreth. In all honesty, it does seem to make more sense. I once got 4 straight smithing points from like 288-291 on 4 combines. It doesn't make sense that I can get that much better at my trade in only 4 attempts and then the next 400 attempts after that I learned nothing about my trade. I would even go so far as to say that even if the average total number of combines needed to go from 0-300 increased somewhat, as long as they were a bit more steady and less frustrating along the way, would be OK. Life is about the Journey, not the destination. Make the journey less frustrating, even if it takes longer to get there.

[Stonethew]

re: Death to the RNG

My 2 coppers worth; I can live with the frequency of skillups, sometimes ya skillup sometimes ya don't...when attempting to accomplish something in real life, it may take several attempts to learn something. The problem that I personally have, is with the critical failures, which I don't see anyone even mentioning. I don't care how many attempts it takes to get to get a skillup, as long as the attempts successfully combine and I don't waste materials. THAT particular feature of Tradeskills in EQ is the one and central reason I spend very little time working tradeskills. If you attempt to make an item that is more then 50 * difficulty * points under your skill level it should be impossible to either lose materials, OR fail the attempt; But that's just my opinion...

[Aldier]

My 2 coppers worth; I can live with the frequency of skillups, sometimes ya skillup sometimes ya don't...when attempting to accomplish something in real life, it may take several attempts to learn something. The problem that I personally have, is with the critical failures, which I don't see anyone even mentioning. I don't care how many attempts it takes to get to get a skillup, as long as the attempts successfully combine and I don't waste materials. THAT particular feature of Tradeskills in EQ is the one and central reason I spend very little time working tradeskills. If you attempt to make an item that is more then 50 * difficulty * points under your skill level it should be impossible to either lose materials, OR fail the attempt; But that's just my opinion...

Even a master chef could burn a loaf of bread if you are trying to relate to RL. The system is designed that as you increase your skill beyond the "trivial" of the item, your chance to fail it decreases. At 300, anything 100 and under is no fail for you. I know MANY real life jewelers that have been doing the same thing for over 20+ years. They can still make mistakes and end up not being able to use the piece of metal they are working on. If you are making something with pottery and screw up the firing, it usually means the piece is destroyed. So you want tradeskills to either succeed, or have no loss??

[Stonethew]

Even a master chef could burn a loaf of bread if you are trying to relate to RL. The system is designed that as you increase your skill beyond the "trivial" of the item, your chance to fail it decreases. At 300, anything 100 and under is no fail for you. I know MANY real life jewelers that have been doing the same thing for over 20+ years. They can still make mistakes and end up not being able to use the piece of metal they are working on. If you are making something with pottery and screw up the firing, it usually means the piece is destroyed. So you want tradeskills to either succeed, or have no loss??

What I'd like to see is a little realism...the same jeweler you talk about * could * surely make a mistake, and make a bad piece of jewelry...BUT not 100% of the materials that were used in the attempt are lost beyond all recovery...pfffft...THAT'S what my main problem with tradeskills is...you either succeed or fail...no in betweens...and ALL materials are lost on a failure. Which has little basis in anything even approaching reality. But, what do I know I'm not an Uber tradeskiller..and won't be as long as the system remains as screwed up as it is ( imo ).

[Amaljia]

That's what the Salvage aa is for..

[Aldier]

What I'd like to see is a little realism...the same jeweler you talk about * could * surely make a mistake, and make a bad piece of jewelry...BUT not 100% of the materials that were used in the attempt are lost beyond all recovery...pfffft...THAT'S what my main problem with tradeskills is...you either succeed or fail...no in betweens...and ALL materials are lost on a failure. Which has little basis in anything even approaching reality. But, what do I know I'm not an Uber tradeskiller..and won't be as long as the system remains as screwed up as it is ( imo ).

The salvage AA says that it allows a tradeskiller to recover some of the components on a failed combine. I will agree with you that a failed combine (especially when it involves expensive high end components) is a real devastation to lose, but instead of just bashing the system and claiming you will never work with it, suggest an alternative. Do you want the tradeskill system to be like EQ2 where you have each combine take several moments and you make intermediate steps on the way to the final combine? That is, imo, what subcombines are for. Do you want to never fail and never lose any items? Then what would be the point? Everyone would have 300 in every tradeskill and it would not be a challenge and there is no drawback to attempting tradeskills.

If you go to a restaurant and order a steak medium, and the chef cooks it well done to where it is burnt to a crisp, then how would they not lose that cut of meat? Do you expect them to uncook it to make it like you want or do you expect them to have to try to cook a new steak to the temperature you want? If you want to say that people want steak cooked a different way then I would recommend looking at the GoD style of baking. There area 11 sauces for at least 6 different meats for over 10 different ways of preparing the same base meat (or fish).

If you want to stick with jewelry: I agree, if the mistake is in the metal, it could potentially be melted back down and reused. But there would be losses, to the point that you would not be able to attempt to make the SAME item without geting MORE gold. Also, it is a video game, NOT real life so every item requires a data entry and there has to be a smallest quantity an item can be broken down into. A gold bar is as small as gold can be broken down into and I don't think you want to start dealing with fractions of items.

I believe at one point, it may still be true, if you made a loaf of bread in an oven in EQ, it even had the potential to fail the combine and return a burnt loaf in which it consumed the bread tin in the combine.

Tradeskilling is NOT for everyone. Ngreth I believe has even stated that no tradeskill resulting item will be so powerful, as Aid Grimel was for its time, that EVERYONE will want it instead of raid gear. This is to make it so each player has to CHOOSE to do tradeskills or not. When I consider someone doing tradeskills, I am only referring to 200+ in any skill. To get to 200 or to whatever levels are needed for epic 1.5/2.0 combines is not difficult for anyone to do. I am just thankful there are people out there that visit this site and help to maintain it that are as dedicated (addicted?) to tradeskills as I am and it is a niche within the game that we belong to. Not everyone can be in a cutting edge high end raiding guild with max aa, tradeskilling gives some of us a way to enjoy the game and that is the key. Do whatever it is that makes you happy. It is a game meant for enjoyment and that is what everyone needs to find and it will be different for everyone.

[Itek]

Thread Necromancy == BAD. Just don't do it.

And "realism" and "logically" and "other games" reasons have not, do not and will not get any credit, or sway any opinion.

Unlees and until you are capable of resurrecting someone or casting fireball in real life, saying "this is how the real world works" just isn't going to cut it.

Let it die.

[KyrosKrane]

Actually, I disagree on the thread necromancy thing. Pretty often, especially on an orderly board like EQTraders, subjects and topics from far back are still relevant today, or can provide perspective and history for a current discussion. People tend to dislike it because board trolls sometimes use it to revive old arguments, but that's a moderation issue, not a strike against reviving an old thread.

[Tanker]

However, Kudos to Itek on having coined "Thread Necromancy", at least to my eyes.