Chronal and Discordant Stones

[Dranul]

Lemeril makes a really good point, especially in regards to silk wearers. DoN cultural suffers from several drawbacks:

1) You need either the skill or know somone of your race to make the armor. If you're a less played race, like iksar, troll, etc, then you probably have to resort to skilling up yourself.

2) You have to have access to materials, and lots of it. Big especially in regards to silk wearers, GM armor is almost non-existant. I have yet to see any Coarse Silk in person, in the baz, etc, and I certainly haven't seen any GM silk linked, and most certainly not iksar GM silk. But this point has already been harped on enough.

3) You have to be lucky. The combines are rough, no doubt about it.

And all of these drawbacks are acceptable because they used to represent the essential pinacle of what you could get your hands on as a casual player. But with the hard tasks, all you need is a reliable group, or even just three boxes in the case of 69.1 and 68.1

So for the trade off of AC, which is a dump stat for silk wearers anyway, we get more hp/mana and a more useful effect that's even on the Time robe!

At first, I was very hesitant about saying we need chronal stones, but I have to agree at this point that chronal stones should not only drop, but drop from one groupable content along the lines of a 70 or 69 hard. As those stones require a crap load of effect to use, I'd even go so far as to say that it should be a rare drop that accompanys the normal loot drop.

[Wyvernwill]

Aye, for Chain, Leather and Silk the AC on GM armor is meaningless.

My posts came from a tanks perspective and why I value the GM plate as a tank. For tanks, you find next to nothing that gives anywhere near the bonus that the GM armor does.

Yeah, the Improved Dodge 3 is nice, however it's also obtainable via Kyanite also. Or any of the other augments from OoW that fit DoN armor Type 12. Imp Parry, and so forth however, would be very worthwhile, even at a loss of AC.

[Lemeril]

You still missed my point about the 70.x hard plate not being found yet, which is something that I myself am very curious about as I highly doubt GM will have any value to any class when it is found (providing the Dev's didn't screw up and leave plate classes out of the list.)

[Phantron]

I really doubt there's a set of plate armor that has been yet to be found out there. The AC on DoD plate stuff looks low because GM plate armor's AC is abnormally high. Actually all GM armors have abnormally high AC but it doesn't matter for the non plate classes (and not even bards/clerics for plates).

What does means is that if you pass up a plate item to a cleric you'll probably be okay, but if you choose to get it you're not any worse off ignoring extra stats.

Here's an example of what a right itemization choice looks like:

Grandmaster wrist - 32 AC 115 HP +40 saves 15 attack
Darkcoral bracer - 43 AC 215 HP +56 saves 10 accuracy 15 attack 3 FT

Here's a harder one:

Grandmaster Legs 81 AC 145 HP +55 saves FT2 DS2
Illsalin Greaves - 67 AC 220 HP +66 saves 5% stun resist 20 attack 2 FT

Assuming you don't care about anything but HP/AC, this is 75 HP for 14 AC. Unless your AC is below the cap, the Illsalin greaves are better. However if you've a good type 12 aug (say, Radiant Kyanite) then Grandmaster Legs will be better in HP/AC. Of course you can probably move the type 12 aug to somewhere else, but the choice isn't as obvious as the previous one.

Note that legs with > 81 AC comes from Anguish or higher content. This is a piece of Grandmaster that has an abnormally high AC so it is competitive with its DoD counterpart which is itemized normally. The Grandmaster wrist, on the other hand, is inferior to the DoD counterpart in every way because it is not itemized with abnormal AC.

A good point of reference would be the warrior class only Qvic armor, Vadd, which is itemized by the book, and look at the relative % difference in AC. Any piece that comes unreasonably close (or in the case of legs, better) than Vadd is a piece that's itemized incorrectly and, therefore, is a piece you should hang on to more than others.

[Lemeril]

Actually the greaves are there but what about a BP? That is what I have yet to see.

The only BP I've seen out there for plate in DODH was the Hard Chitin, which has no effects and varies from all other classes armor....

Basically the plate side of it almost appears a mistake from what I can see. Where as for chain, leather, and silk the DODH armor far outweighs GM culturl.

[Wyvernwill]

As Phantron pointed out... it's mostly just the focal point of the armor set. On plate, AC is the focus generally as three of the five classes that use plate are tank classes.

Leather, Chain and Silk generally do not ever tank (Rangers, Beastlords, Monks and Berserkers can, however generally don't). Thusly, their focal point is generally on effects, hps, mana, end, or other things and the AC isn't that heavy of a factor.

Kyanite is one option for the T12 slot, but there is also a sold Radiant Ametrine Gemstone which is 40hps/Mana +5 all svs also for Chest/Legs T12.

I go with what is in my T11 and T12 slots as additions to the actual armors stats only ignoring the T7 slot. The reason is simple, T11 and T12 are not on any other upgrades I will be seeking, and those upgrades will be lacking those two slots. At 35hps against 14ac, the difference weighs out in favor of AC, atleast to me.

Ahhh yes, the thorn in my side that has been the 70.1 plate bracers. Evasive lil bracer they have been.

[Lemeril]

Hmm, I actually tank quiet a bit as a ranger and AC is important to all classes. I know a beastlord that tanks a lot also, leather class.

And your still going complete off subject, again.

The point I'm trying to make, that you seem to want to off kilter with all the other stuff, is that DoDH Gear is on par if not better than GM Cultural for the most part.

As I have pointed out once, and no one has shown a link to prove me wrong, the 70.x hard mission Plate BP has yet to be found (providing it exists like it should). The reason I believe it does is because there is both a plate and chain bp and I believe leather in the 69.x hard set.

Knowing this the plate 70.x bp should exceed GM cultural based off what we currently know of 70.x hard DOD armor.

This is what I am trying to point out, now if you can provide a link to a 70.x hard Plate BP and prove me completely wrong fine.

But that is 1 out of 4 different types of armor and I would like to see the breakdown between the armors someday, but it is unimportant at the moment to show why chronal's should be 1 groupable.

[Lemeril]

I just wanted to post a full comparison of the GM Gear with a Chronal versus DoDH hard drop versus KT.

This is only chain, but gives a good idea of why people sit where they do:

Fen Link Vest (70.1 hard possible chest drop)
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=45769
AC 71
STR 14
STA 12
WIS 12
INT 12
AGI 11
FR 12
DR 10
CR 10
MR 12
PR 12
HP 225
Mana 215
End 215
ATK 20
Mana regen 2
Dodge III

KT Chest:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=26527
70 ac
Dex 25
STA 25
wis 15
agi 20
DR 20
CR 20
MR 25
PR 20
HP 215
Mana 205
ENd 205
Accuracy 20
atk 30
regen 3
shielding 2%
Conservation of Xegony

GM Cultural with a Chronal Stone:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=45961

GM Cultural would then be for chain at least:
99 AC
180 hp
180 mana
180 end
STR 13
DEX 16
STA 18
CHA 11
WIS 18
INT 13
AGI 16
FR 11
DR 15
CR 15
MR 15
PR 15

Damage Shield 2
Mana REgen 2
Accuracy +4
atk +10
Shielding +1%
Stun resist +1%

Focus effect = various with spell focuses only to level 67

[Wyvernwill]

Not to continue on with a disagreement of which we're not going to convince one or the other either way, however there are a few things I want to interject.

First of all, you bring up the fact of 70.x plate. Other than a few discovered pieces, there are many that have not been found. Given that fact, I am lead to believe they do not exist. Why is that? Because DoDh has been out for quite some time and nothing has been found. There's a plate bracer that I have personally seen. However, if the bp does exist, given the stats on the chain Bp that you posted, it is more than likely that the Plate Bp would have more AC than the GM DoN armor.

Let's say, hypothetically speaking, that the plate bp is what you linked on the chain bp. That being the case, I would take the GM don Bp. Here are the primary factors
Shielding = KodTaz > DoN GM > DoDh
Avoidance = DoDh > KT/DoN
AC = DoN GM > DoDh > KodTaz
Hp = DoDh > KodTax > DoN GM

Those are the four primary things, as a tank, that I check for in a piece of armor and in that specific order. Resists fall directly under Hps, then lesser pretty effects. Since I have an Imp Dodge 3 augment, that would already null the primary reason why I would switch to the DoDh plate.

Looking at the differences.
DoDh vs KodTaz, I would take KT Bp, hands down. Shielding is far more important than an easily obtainable effect in Improved Dodge 3. If it was Imp Riposte or Parry, it would be more appealing.
KT vs DoN, given my current status KT would be the preferential choice.
DoN vs DoDh, Imp Dodge 1 (using the effect you have) vs Imp Dodge 3 is a big difference, however +28 raw ac and Shielding 1% vs 25 hps weighs in favor of DoN. (Chronal Stones give 55hps. DoN GM Plate is 145 hps, thus with a Chronal Stone the armor would be 200hps even.)

Of course, this is based off the fact that the DoDh hard plate bp is actually the DoDh chain bp. Given that factor into the equation, you would probably have to add about 20-30ac to it to see what the plate would look like. That being the case, DoDh would be the obvious choice unless you could pick up better raid gear.

However, this is all circumstantial on the fact of the armor having to exist, and to be found.

Yes, I agree Chronal stones should be manageable with a group. But it should still be a difficult encounter. One reason why I see it right that DoDh Plate is better than DoN. DoDh items are considerably harder to obtain that items through DoN.

[Lemeril]

Actually I have had an easier time (other than forming groups for it) to do DoDh spell missions that I did to get all the metallic drakescales for my GM Cultural.

Now that being said you did agree with me that Chronal's should be one groupable.

This is all I am trying to say is that they should be single groupable in instances on par with the 70.x hard last migration hard, etc... that the "uber" dodh chain, silk, leather, and plate gear drops.

[Lemeril]

With the prophecy of ro getting closer and the 18th of the month when all the changes on Cultural and DODH augs to go into play I would like to see some more input here.

I know we have said a lot combined already, but people must have more to say.

[catpower]

IMHO, the first and maybe second tiers of slot 12 augs should be available as one group content.

When you look at DOD itemization(sp?) it just makes sense. With easily obtainable 200hp/mana gear now out, cultural is going to be a very tough sell, except to those who can access the raid drops.

I seriously doubt that is what the devs had in mind when they created DON cultural and when they set up the loot tables for DOD. DON gear has really high AC, because they want it to be valuable long term. It will be valuable to way more people if they make the slot 12 augs available to more people. That is simple economics.

Although I got my smithing up primarily to make armor for my SK, I was hoping to sell some pieces too, of course. Why would anyone choose my armor in the bazaar, which they will have to pay for, when they can run certain missions a few times to get armor that is better in many ways?

Honestly, with slot 12 unused by most people (look at the DON augs that fit that slot, they are few and not all that great), the DOD drops are the obvious way to go. My SK has the GM bp, I was waiting to make an aug for him when I finish the aug quest, but now I am seriously considering just selling it because I got the 200hp bp drop from the 69.1 mission.

My guess is that the lowest one or two tiers of slot 12 augs from DOD were always supposed to be one group obtainable, but they had some issues deciding just how to do that (put the drops in the missions, make new missions, put drops in normal zones, etc., etc.).

The devs did an amazing job with the implementation of GM DON armor. Not only is it good armor, it is very upgradeable. If they do enable us to get the drops required for the first tier or so, with single groups, then they will have fulfilled the promise of DON cultural armor. Seriously, what a design coup for the dev team, armor that is extrememly valuable to casuals and raiders alike. It's brilliant.

[Master Ruphus]

IMHO....

I know I would like to see both Chronal and Discordant be made available to 100% of the level 70 player base. Even with Discordant Stones, it takes a LOT of time, effort and patience to obtain a full set of GM armor, and the AAAA, for 200+ hp armor when similar stuff is dropping in the missions that are commonly done by even pick up groups.

I think Chronals should be a random drop from any zone in DoDH from Stoneroot Falls up (even the non instances). Just like Discordant Scoriae from OoW. Rare as friggin heck, but it's still possible, and a single person, duo, trio, or full group has at least "some" chance at seeing one, and it's still a weak aug compared to the next 3 up.

Discordant Stones should be random/rare drops from mobs in DoDh missions and missions alone. They shouldn't come from the chests, it would make them to common, and with them already dropping from Korlach it wouldn't make much sense. Although, I would like to see some smaller raids like Korlach that have their standard 1-2 pieces of loot plus a Discordant Stone, and it drops every time from the raid. (this should happen for Korlach too).

Now these are just my opinions, and to be honest hopes. As a soloing wizard in a familyish raiding guild, it sucks to have spent all the time / effort into making myself a full set of GM armor, and it's 1 expansion old and already looking to be replaced by stuff from 2-4 expansions ago.

With the way gear has shot up in since OoW, I don't doubt that 200+ hp gear will be "droppable" and "attuneable" after PoR, I just hope they remember that a lot of us tradeskillers are soloers, it takes up a lot of time tradeskilling to always be able to group at will, let alone expect a raid for 1 aug, let alone 5-7 raids for 5-7 augs for 1 person.

[Lemeril]

I agree with the comparisons of gear, as I have already said. As for the discordant being non-raid I'm not sure where I sit on that. Personally it might be nice to see it non-raid, but with the selectable focus, etc... then the stats of the discordant that stack with the GM gear I'm not sure that is realistic for proper itemization.

As for the chronals, if they dropped like Discordant Scoriae they would be worthless. There just aren't enough groups in DoDh zones from my experience for one. For another it would make them rarer than Discordant Stones, and that just isn't right.

[Thanos]

personally i am hoping that in the next expansion they continue with type 12 augs, but grade them for the value. make chronal augs less expensive (no aaaa) and lastblood augs expensive (use an aaaa) the person who is going to be interested in a chronal aug is not going to be able to spend the 4 or 5 hundred thousand plat these things sell for (talking about aaaa).

they should make two groups of augs, those obtainable by a group such as chronal, someting inbetween, and discordant, then those obtainable by a raid something before bazu, bazu and last blood.

the first set would require doing a group mission series to get the container for combine maybe, the second set could be pick a mission or the aaaa.

an aug somewhere inbetween chronal and discordant would be nice, about 5 ac 70 or 80 hp +5 to all stats and maybe 3 other stats like avoidance stun resist and shielding and same effects as available in chronal.

to bad this won't happen, but one can always hope.