Dead Horses, finally laid to rest.

[pennyrose]

"Dead Horses"

I don't have a topic to contribute to the "dead horse" list, but I do want to mention something about the concept of dead horses.

I know that the moderators and others who read every post daily have topics they never want to see again, but there are many folks out there like me, who come by here a few times a week, browse topics quickly to see if there is something I want to read, and leave. I'm not a newbie, but I have asked some newbie questions. I remember asking if it was REALLY true that you had to use blue diamonds for something or other and asking whether it made multiple sets of glazes or something. I had searched on the topic and had seen the recipe, but I just couldn't believe it could be that expensive. Chuckle. Not knowing any other potters in Norrath, I came here for an answer and received a polite reply.

Many of the topics being listed here as "dead horses" are not dead horses at all to me or to many other people who participate in these boards and this website. While I would be more than willing to see the demise of some of the purely philosophical threads (which race/class is better at, which skill is hardest), I hate to see that happen to informational topics.

As the former owner/moderator of several email lists, I fully support the owner/moderator' right to make any rules they want, whether it is censorship or not. But I am suggesting that those folks making these rules take a step back and try to see the rules and/or topics from the perspective of someone who is not totally immersed in this site on a daily basis.

Thanks for listening.

Pennyrose

[Kronepsis]

Re: "Dead Horses"

Many of the topics being listed here as "dead horses" are not dead horses at all to me or to many other people who participate in these boards and this website. While I would be more than willing to see the demise of some of the purely philosophical threads (which race/class is better at, which skill is hardest), I hate to see that happen to informational topics.

From what I see of the Dead Horse list, the Dead horses ARE philosophical things. The reason why some informational posts are dead horses is because the post causes people to come out of the woodwork and start posting about how this person and that person is rude, or what that person really meant, or something equally pointless and TOTALLY unrelated to the information in the thread, instead of doing it in the Primal Scream Room. Does that make sense? It's not the question itself that causes it to be a dead horse -- it's the hijackers attracted to it afterwards who derail the original topic. If you need an example to see what I mean, just read most locked informational-sounding topics.

[Morani]

Having a Dead Horse Section will provide a few things and fail to provide others. With a community this large, it is impossible to put in motion a “fix” with which everyone will be happy.

One of the things that will not be stopped is people posting without looking for the answers. If someone isn’t going to use the search feature or the main board to find their answer, then it’s very unlikely that another place to find it will change their tact. (side note about the search feature below)

On the other hand, I think the Dead Horse Section will help a lot in other ways. For example, If someone asks a question that is part of the Dead Horse, they can easily be POLITELY directed to it. There would be even less need to be snippy or rude and it would be even more support to the enforcement of “being nice”. It would also (IMO) make a GREAT list of things for a newbie to read that might otherwise take a year or more to learn piece by piece.

I’ve read a number of post protesting the idea of the Dead Horse because of sympathy for the new person; that it’s not fair if someone has genuinely tried to get the answer for him/her self and then gets shut down when asking. I think I can safely say that one of the principal reasons for the message board here was to help people who are stumped. To address the fairness, I agree it’s not right that a person get shut down or flamed. But I don’t see how there is a conflict with between and the Dead Horses. Perhaps a sticky somewhere labeled “How to get the best responses to your questions” would be helpful. (Not picking on anyone here; I’m just using someone else’s example) If you are confused about a FAQ on raising pottery, do not post the question “How do I raise my pottery skill?” Be more specific and ask about what you are confused over. If what’s confusing you is that person A’s FAQ has 4 steps and person B’s and 13 steps to reach the same goal then the question of “why would I want to do 13 steps over 4 steps when raising my pottery to 200?” is going to give you more helpful answers. I’ve asked some real doozies of questions here myself . Real or not, deserved or not, there is a sense of needing to be spoon feed when someone doesn’t take the time to ask what they real want to know and over generalizes. Not to long ago, here was an increased trend in answering simple and basic questions (from the point of those who’ve been doing this a while) by directing them to previous posts or FAQ’s via links where they answer already existed and pretty much leaving it at that. This ruffled some feathers but it seems to have WORKED. I see more posts now with people saying that they’ve looked for their answer, frequently where, and a more detailed question or explanation of what is confusing. This in turn has been met with better and more polite help.

Also, it seems to me that many of the ideas posted for the Dead Horses are issues that a newbie would not be asking. Let’s not get stuck on only this part of the issue. I’m not downplaying it’s importance, but let’s not downplay the importance of the rest either.

The staff at this web-site have done a an excellent job of putting it together, being knowledgeable, and expressing that they care about fairness. Civility is policed here more than any other large board for EQ that I’ve run across. I for one have no problems trusting the staff to do the best they can for the community and to actually listen when we don’t like something. I trust them enough to let them do what they want and reserve my judgement until I’ve had a chance to experience the changed product. If I have a suggestion or comment, I’ll mention it then and I will have no problems being polite because I know I’ll be listened to and my comments will be taken to heart. Ultimately, it’s quite kind of them to ask for our input on this issue; if I was running the board I would not have asked, I would have done it and everyone would just have to deal.

**Search feature: I’ve not tried it since the migration, but on EZBoard, I personally found the search feature to be nearly useless. I would go looking for a post I WROTE and could not find it most of the time so I have a lot of empathy for people who are redirected to the search rather than a link to a post or other area that answers the question.

[kiztent]

YES! Good call, Xaanru.


While I was listening to some guy at work, I thought of one.

Any unfairness/complaining about the May 5th Smithing "NERF!!!"

I noticed that the fletchers seem to have simply accepted the fact that fletching is super hard, and moved on. But the smithing change in May is a continual source of contempt and some argument.

This is definately something that has people on both sides of the issue very heated.

-Lilosh.[/i]

The horse can't be that dead if you don't understand the difference between the two Lilosh.

Simply:
- fletching has always been arrows to 202 then the pain and expen$e of making darkwood bows to 250. Of course, you couldn't make anything useful at 250. Now they added nice stuff, and people are gritting their teeth (the ones who didn't do it for love before) and skilling up.
- smithing used to have a fairly easy path to 250, but you couldn't make squat (the old cultural is inferior to old planar (hate and fear) armour - though some pieces have decent utility and it is tradeable). For a while it still had an easy path to 250, but you could make useful stuff. Then they took out the easy path and replaced it with... nothing. It leave smiths in 3 camps. The ones who did it before because they wanted to and reap the rewards. The ones who did it during the window before the trivial change and reap the rewards. The ones who are left in the cold. Camp 3 really hates camp 2 and isn't especially happy with some of the attitudes in camp 1. Putting the BD cultural in game BEFORE adjusting FP trivials was a massive penalty to the casual smith. As soon as BD armour went into game, every uberguild powered someone to 242 on FP. THEN the trivials were lowered.

Imagine the furor if Verant took all the acrylia tailoring out of the game and you had to go from Wu's to velious leathers (which was the case pre-SoL). Imagine the furor if tomorrow bakers did patty melts to 191 and then had to do pixie cinnisticks to 250 because all the other recipes had their trivials lowered and MTPs were a skill restricted combine. Imagine the brewers' reaction if a critical component for Minotaur hero brews was no longer store bought and only dropped rarely off the mosquitos in Emerald Jungle and nowhere else. Now imagine if this happened after some nice recipes were introducted that gave you an incentive to skill up - like right after stat foods were added. No other tradeskill has EVER had anything like that happen to it. Every other tradeskill gets NEW paths to skill up, not FEWER.

I personally think that FAQs will never discourage people from posting on a topic. Stickies, dead horse lists, whatever. As interesting as these lists are, the questions aren't going away. There's guides on raising smithing to any level, but people still ask.

It will continue to remain the responsibility of the moderators to move/lock/delete the posts as they come up - again and again.

I've sat through alignment flame wars on ADND-L 13 years ago - a horse that's deader than any here - and I've seen FAQs and sundry attempts to avoid repetition on more newsgroups, message boards and mailing lists than I care to count in the intervening years. This effort, while well intentioned, is ill considered. I find the moderators are doing well, though it may take a significant amount of their time.

[Skidorian]

/shudder

DnD Alignment discussions...brings back nightmares...yet some how also nostalgia...

odd isnt it?

Skidorian

[Lilosh]

YES! Good call, Xaanru.


While I was listening to some guy at work, I thought of one.

Any unfairness/complaining about the May 5th Smithing "NERF!!!"

I noticed that the fletchers seem to have simply accepted the fact that fletching is super hard, and moved on. But the smithing change in May is a continual source of contempt and some argument.

This is definately something that has people on both sides of the issue very heated.

-Lilosh.[/i]

The horse can't be that dead if you don't understand the difference between the two Lilosh.

attempt to rez a horse

This was not an invitation to discuss or debate the topic. The "Nerf" of smithing on May 5th is a dead horse. Whether it was fair or not, deserved or not, or comparable to fletching or not was not the point.



-Lilosh

[kiztent]

The horse can't be that dead if you don't understand the difference between the two Lilosh.

attempt to rez a horse

This was not an invitation to discuss or debate the topic. The "Nerf" of smithing on May 5th is a dead horse. Whether it was fair or not, deserved or not, or comparable to fletching or not was not the point.

-Lilosh

Personally I don't care what you think is on the topic Lilosh. You take cheap shots at my skill of choice, don't run back and claim it's not on topic. You want to make sweeping statements (smiths complain, fletchers don't), back em up like a man and take your hits or don't make 'em. Or maybe you could take time to understand why smiths are so furious and respect that instead of casually dismissing it.

to wit:

I noticed that the fletchers seem to have simply accepted the fact that fletching is super hard, and moved on. But the smithing change in May is a continual source of contempt and some argument.

This is definately something that has people on both sides of the issue very heated.

Sorry, but saying the Denmother cleared this discussion doesn't give you the right to be a jerk. If the topic is as heated as it is, a balanced consideration will earn you less emnity than a casual dismissal.

[Lilosh]

I stated

1) Fletching was made more difficult.
2) Smithing was made more difficult

I then stated that the Smithing Trivial Adjustment is a continuing source of vocal displeasure in the Smithing forum.

I merely used fletching as an example of an Increase in Difficulty that was NOT a continuing source of vocal displeasure.


And whether you agree or not that the adjustments in difficulty were comparible, or whether you take it as an insult to your chosen profession, or whether you take it as a personal insult, I have no control over.

The smithing adjustment in June was my suggestion for a dead horse.

Now please drop the topic, or start a discussion in Primal Scream. I'm not trying to avoid "Taking my hits like a man", or any such nonsense. I just don't want to derail this thread into ANOTHER thread on the smithing changes.

-Lilosh

[Laureana]

This entire thread seems to have caused alot more fuss than solutions since it was created.. (and no Im not just talking about the smithing nerf subject, theres been much argument in this thread and others concerning whether or not a dead horse is even a vaild thing let alone the "discussions" on what should or shouldn't qualify as a dead horse)

That's just my 2cp though
/shrug

[Ngreth Thergn]

Darnit people

Why can't you behave like civilized people?

Closing these threads Until I can discuss the matter with Denmom.