Dead Horses, finally laid to rest.

[Petercorbin]

yawn.

ah boo hoo you have to scroll down 10 or 20 posts about "why is smithing so hard" or "these stats suck" or "wheres my cultural smithing!!"

Just skip the threads. its easy. and if you really feel the need to read everything posted here then maybe do what i did a couple years ago when the tailoring boards were swamped with "what does this pelt do?" posts and I posted a list of all the uses for all the pelts in the game (pre-luclin).. the moderators could make more posts that are commonly repeated into stickies so that people see the stickies before they make their own post, and if they dont, you can lock/delete their thread after pointing them to the sticky.

People actually looking for help isnt as annoying as all those frilly posts about "ding 100 baking" or "ding 188 smithing" or "yipee i made my trophey" which seem to outnumber the so called "dead horse" topics 2 to 1.

This community used to be small and not as many newbies wandering in, but hey baking used to max at 162, tailoring at 115, brewing at 188, smithing at 175, pottery at 188, and fletching like 202. There were no really truly useful items beyond banded or tailored backpacks or arrows, and most players didnt want to be bothered with tradeskills.

Now you can make all kinds of stat food and drink, 10 wis cloaks, platemail that kicks butt, earring of solstice, shawl quests and all kinds of goodies. Tradeskills are profitable now and more and more and more people want to be involved, 250 GM skillers are popping up all across Norrath pumping out all types of items and creating several markets for supplies and end-products. Naturally as this is the best EQ tradeskill website in the universe, many of them are going to come here. Make room for them and help them along...

it probalby wasnt too long ago that most of us were scratching our heads about how rare yew leaves were or WHERE ARE THE COBALT CODS or crying at the pathetic stats of old school cultural armor or the extreme amount of blue diamonds (at 2k a pop!) we had to go through or how rare iron oxides were or how only sand giants dropped essence of sunlight or how all the "high end" baking receipes needed brownie parts or how you couldnt buy all the herbs for alchemy in one town, you had to buy stuff in grobb/oggok to make half of them and halas for the other half, how pelts and silks and boning and studs didnt stack or how evil all the kiters were in EK taking all the spiders etc etc etc... underneath most of us arent that different, just older and wiser. Give the kids a break I say

[Morani]

Lilosh,
I think some idea of how the “dead horse” works would help keep answers to your question topical. For example; is a dead horse a locked thread or a forum where people can talk about dead horses? The answers are likely to be different as there are some things that I’m tired of reading but I feel are legitimate topics of discussion. If the dead horse is a discussion forum, I’d say put them in there so I don’t have to read them unless I WANT to (like how I see the Primal Scream). On the other hand, if its a final posting to be referred to but not debated anymore than I’d rather put up with running into them as I do already. In my opinion, the worst thing you can do to help is put up a list of detailed, controversial things and then say “DON’T”…. (Thank you Bill Cosby) I would expect that to make even more work.

Having said that, I now need to back my words up.
Here are some things that come to mind for me (assuming the dead horse is the debatable version):

FAQ’s on how to “power level” any tradeskill would be a good start.
BUT, only if they are kept up to date. There is so much that has/is changing right now that the FAQ I read last month may now be invalid, let alone the one I read SIX months ago. Things change and new ways are found. The FAQ needs to address that. If it doesn’t, the dead house is given a reason to come back and try to eat our brains like the zombie it is.

(Which – Who’s)Formula / <insert topic here> = &lt;flame * Glory * Fortune>
I like math. I’ve even participated in figuring these out. BUT, it bothers me when I’m reading a post for information on where I might hunt mob drops or whether I should bother to buy gear to push my Stat from 130-150 and the thread switches to argument over whether formula A’s result of 87% chance of a successful combine is more accurate than formula B’s 85.5% chance.

What is THE best anything?
Unless we are going to vote on it (and that might not be a bad idea for pure interest) there is no THE best, it’s all personal preference. Note, this is not the same as “This is what I do; how about everyone else?”
This one in particular is one I don’t want to have as a closed topic; I’ve learned more from the question “why didn’t you do it this way” than anything else on this board. This is a HUGE collection innovative thinkers and I’m always impressed with the number of things I see that would have never occurred to me to do… and WORK!

Questions with established, OFFICIAL answers.
IMO, this one’s be a banning offence for repeat offenders; if you asked once you know the answer. Things like “I hit 201 in XXX by accident, is there any way to change it?” or “Any new development on Half Elf Cultural Tradeskills yet?” I think it’s safe to say that if anything changes on these there will be MUCH hubbub on this board about it and that it’d be pretty hard to miss it.
Note, the criteria is established AND official; The questions on whether something is working is not the same.

Any real world economic model being applied to a make-believe world.
Enough said.
Note, questions on how much people are paying of XXX are fine, lets leave the question of who’s right or wrong strapped to the saddle.

Any discussion on fairness in the game mechanics.
As someone said (can’t remember who) when talking about how hard it is to skill up one of the tradeskills: You knew what you where getting yourself into; you’ve only got yourself to blame (paraphrased).

Speculation on how something new will kill/has killed the market for XXX.
This has the potential for helpfulness if someone posts an idea of how to turn the decline down or use a change to an advantage

Hoaxes/urban legends
Perhaps a sub-category in and of itself.

[Lilosh]

Morani:


EXCELLENT post. Very nice list.

My problem wasnt the people who wanted to clarify what would happen to the dead horses. My problem was that it was turning into "Thats a stupid idea, we dont need that". Almost nobody had actually given the feedback that I had requested.


-Lilosh

[Salitorn]

Isn't the point of having a forum to discuss topics? It doesn't matter if its been discussed 1000 times. Let it get discussed again for the 1001 time.

If I purchase a game I don't automatically know everything about it due to some divine intervention. I go to message boards like this one to get information. I don't expect to get bashed by the people who claim to have played the game since beta, nor do I care. I just want a simple answer to my question. Not everyone understands tradeskills. Thats why they cam here.

If I ask how do I raise a skill, I can care less if you link the search box. Chances are I have done a search, but didn't understand the results I got and need someone to explain them. And I have noticed that their are several ways to raise a skill. If I could be stuck on one, and I could be interested in what others tryed.

If someone posts a message you dislike or disagree with, either ignore the post entirley or don't post within it. Seems simple to me.

This web site used to be a place for newbie would go to learn about a differant aspect of a great game. Now its fallen to this. CENSORSHIP. Since deleting a post from a newbie would simply become this. Since any question that a new person would have would fall under a dead horse policy and deleting their post equals censorship.

Seems some people one this board have an elitist attitude and if your not one of the guys your treated with a snobbish attitude. I'm from down south and was raised to treat others like I want to be treated, a regular Southern Gentleman.

My suggestions, make a sticky in each forum listing the general consinus&lt;sp?> of what to make till XXX skill and update it periodically. I have made one for smithing to 188. By then you should have a good sense of what smithing is about. Better yet make a guide page and make the guides printable. Heck use mine I'll give you permission to use it, just ask. I'm sure others could make the same thing for thier respective skills rather quickly.

You also need to understand that people will naturally want to disagree about race/ class/ skill is best. Thats great, thats what makes this game fun. I play a Dark Elf and all the Wood Elfs in the Guild hate me. I'm constantly trying to give them Smoked Wood Elf. I like to play my character and enjoy it. So naturally when reading a forum I try to do the same thing. (Dark Elfs are the best btw. No annoying faction issues.)

Wrapping it up, I see other ways that this could be accompished, without killing a persons question.
1.Make a guide section, in it post skillup guides and farming guides. Heck all this would do is put those ebayers with their guides out of business.
2.Make a fourm for just newbies to post questions to have answered without getting flammed.
3.Move any discussion about best this or that to its own forum, call it the debate forum.

[Maevenniia]

Ok Dead Horse Topic suggestion:

The "Why do you have to be so rude when you answer that question?"-vs- "It's lazy idiots who don't read the FAQs or use the search function who are the TRUE rude dudes therefore I have the right to be snippy" Debate

[Hobbun]

I know you are looking for ideas how to set up the "dead horse" list Lilosh, but I think some of the people that aren't giving ideas, don't agree for the need for it. I feel the same way. I know we are charged for every post that is given, but honestly, the point of these boards is so we can discuss these issues. They can scroll to old posts on the subject, but they may want input on their own experience. That is one of the reasons I like these boards. I don't know, by doing the "dead horse" list it gives me the feeling of going through the menu on a phone and getting automated responses. I hate that. I would rather "talk" to someone when I call. Just like I would like someone to respond to my question or experience rather than having to go through an old post which might not even apply due to changes made in the game since then.

But, that is just my opinion.

Hobbun

[Sinuuyanea Nocturne]

The "Dead Horse" lists are in no way an attempt to censor or deter anyone's search for information. They are, however, designed to keep the same question from being asked for the 1000th time, as it slows down and lessens the effect these boards were designed for: to inform and help to educate, not to spoonfeed. It's the same reason good teachers dont read the book to you. It's the same reason you arent forced to sit through your alphabet while you are in high school. The Dead Horse lists are necessary and long overdue; without them, the boards will be plagued with the exact same useless gripes that they have been plagued by for weeks, months, and in some cases, years.

Unlike data or true FAQ, a Dead Horse post accomplishes nothing beneficial here. If you want something to change, post on SoE boards or do a /feedback ingame. If you're ticked off and want somewhere to vent, go to the Primal Scream room. Posting for the hundredth time that Vah Shir have no cultural, that Sol Ro followers got screwed, that blah blah blah accomplishes NOTHING POSITIVE OR CONSTRUCTIVE! The Dead Horse lists are designed to deter these useless, moot posts.

[sumamael]

This web site used to be a place for newbie would go to learn about a differant aspect of a great game. Now its fallen to this. CENSORSHIP. Since deleting a post from a newbie would simply become this. Since any question that a new person would have would fall under a dead horse policy and deleting their post equals censorship.

A few things,

Moderators are not deleting posts.
The only thing what we are deleting are cross-posts and double posts. If something goes over the line we move it to the moderator's forum for admin review. If something was posted in the wrong forum we might edit it to point it out or move it to the right forum.

The dead horse sticky in the smithing forum is a great idea, now I can politly ask people to let the issue die or take it to the primal scream room.

/personal opinion on

I have been reading this board for 2 years now, the only thing what changed meanwhile is the number of visitors.
Back 2 years ago someone asking a "newb" question was not nearly as frequent as these days.
I sure can understand the pro's that they wish to have the forums for constructive discussion.

When in doubt you can use the 1st rule, the message board serves the web site and not the web site serves the message board.

[Lilosh]

I had a long, very exhaustive post, expressing my displeasure at all of the "Dont censor my/the newbies free Speech, Man!" posts.

But when you press escape while composing a message, it clears the Message Body.


So , in summary. I never said the posts would be deleted. Locked, with a link to the DEAD HORSE FAQ, or at the very worst moved to a "Dead Horse" discussion forum. Stop martyring yourself against percieved injustice. Stop trying to lash out against the "oppressive censorship".


When more then one mod, from more then one forum, starts commenting on the abundance of Dead Horse Beatings, then Perhaps it may be time to look at it as a possible problem. Not as an infringement on your god given right to post pointless arguments and bickerings.


-Lilosh

[Ngreth Thergn]

Salitorn

I modified Lilosh's first post to show the rules I have given moderators on how to handle Dead Horse Posts.

It basically says, they can talk about it in primal screams if they absolutely have to talk about it. So Basically we are doing a form of what you mentioned. Of course these rules only apply one we have a Dead Horse FAQ. Note I made these rules BEFORE reading either your Deleted post in Smithing, or the one here. And you may want to read what I put in place of your post in Smithing.

We are open to "DISCUSSION" of what we do here. we are not open to being insulted. Period. This is OUR HOME... we have invited you to our home. Just because we have invited you to our home we do not have to put up with being insulted just because someone yells censorship. You have no first amendment rights in these forums (read the visitors corner for more information on the topic of Censorship here...)

[Ngreth Thergn]

Now. Get this topic back on target.

What are some more dead horses?

[xaanru]

Dead horse

How about

Do you/why don't you/someone wouldn't do a... FREE COMBINE, even when all materials are provided. Arguments usually go

Should I do this?
I don't because I got ripped off before, so nobody else should
I do because I don't care about money, and am only tradeskilling for fun.
You're evil if you do, and are killing my market.
You're greedy if you don't and are hurting the less wealthy players

Etc, etc, etc.... ad nauseum.

And of course, the topic

BAZAAR PRICING FOR _______ (raw materials)!

All of the established tradeskillers remember when you could auction for those items in EC, Gfay, etc and get them for xx a stack. Now, the bazaarfarmers want xx EACH.

I've even been sucked into these threads myself. But they are dead horses. Nothing is accomplished by reading/posting to, another long thread on either topic.

[Lilosh]

YES! Good call, Xaanru.


While I was listening to some guy at work, I thought of one.

Any unfairness/complaining about the May 5th Smithing "NERF!!!"

I noticed that the fletchers seem to have simply accepted the fact that fletching is super hard, and moved on. But the smithing change in May is a continual source of contempt and some argument.

This is definately something that has people on both sides of the issue very heated.

-Lilosh.[/i]

[Cigarskunk]

Uhm, rants about dead horse topics?

[Lilosh]

Uhm, rants about dead horse topics?

Bah, I already said, on page one.

Please suggest topics which would be considered a "Dead Horse".

And the first person to say "This One" will be promptly covered in JumJum and Thrown into Rivervale at lunchtime. &lt;grin>

-Lilosh