Ancient Spells...Researchable now?

[Thorn]

I'd have to disagree. ANY spell should be researchable. It was researched the first time and give the time, a lab, and enough skull sweat you should be able to research it again. I mean the spell did not just spring forth fully scribed in some INT casters book ya know? Wis casters may get there powers from whatever god and can have "unresearchable" spells as it is easy to justify divinity beyond understanding but not INT caster stuff.

I can understand people wanting "status" and thinking have that spell grants em such but in the land of E-bays and "My friend gave me his account" The only status I confer is from skill. Game wise every spell should be researchable and their is honestly not a single reason somthing "discovered" once cannot be discovered again.

Items I won't get into as the "how" of their creation is varied and some of it can maybe defy research (like if a GOD was involved in its creation) but spells are not such a case.

[Bauhb]

Quite simply, you don't need the ancient spells. Saying that they should be researchable implies that you believe that you are somehow entitled to them.

Like it or not, spells are a part of progression. Ancient spells are made for raiders, the same way that gear that comes from a raid will generally be better than gear that can be acquired via soloing, grouping, or via the bazaar.

Coordinating a raid is a difficult thing, and if your guild is capable of progressing as a team, then that is something worthy of reward. Hence, better equipment and better spells. Simply making such items available to any person defeats half the incentive of actually raiding.

ANY spell should be researchable. It was researched the first time and give the time, a lab, and enough skull sweat you should be able to research it again. I mean the spell did not just spring forth fully scribed in some INT casters book ya know? Wis casters may get there powers from whatever god and can have "unresearchable" spells as it is easy to justify divinity beyond understanding but not INT caster stuff.

Thorn, consider the prefix: Ancient. As in, hella old. Long-lost knowledge that we are incapable of recovering one way or another. Words, runes, or book pages that no longer exist. Forbidden knowledge from the Gods or other powers that be. Given a real-life example, how much knowledge was forever lost when the library at Alexandria was lost? How many great thinkers throughout history have been silenced for eternity due to political upheavals?

I can understand people wanting "status" and thinking have that spell grants em such but in the land of E-bays and "My friend gave me his account" The only status I confer is from skill. Game wise every spell should be researchable and their is honestly not a single reason somthing "discovered" once cannot be discovered again.

Ebaying happens less than you imply, and people tend to know if an established character is ebayed. Ancient spells aren't about "status" unless you're actually trying to sell your toon. In the context of the game, they're about progression, which is something necessary for the game to exist.

You hopefully don't think every bit of weaponry or armor should be creatable via tradeskills. The same argument as to why this should not be holds for some spells.

[DJPhil]

PoP Research

Haven't reenlisted on the boards since they moved (and I started playing again, hehe), but I thought I'd add my two cents on this one.

The boot eating part of PoP spells to me is getting a spell I have already.

Why not add recipes for PoP spells that use ethereal/spectral/rune as a component?


-Kiriskhon

[KyrosKrane]

If a combine requires an Ethereal or Spectral parchment or Glyphed Rune Word, then that step should be no-fail.

How about this. Players create through research an item called "Smudged: (spell name)". This step is can be failed, with appropriate trivials for spells. This item is then combined with either a eth, spec, or rune to create the PoP spell, and this step would be no-fail. The Smudged spell and the final spell would both be tradable.

[KB1]

I want the triv level fixed because well, I am a packrat and I have 22 bags full of research junk. This after I swore it off a year ago and vendored every single item. I want it fixed because why half ass do something? Why raise the cap to 300 but have nothing that trivs past 227? I want it fixed because I get great joy in researching or farming those level spells and sending random tells to druids/shammy/wizards/ etc and seeing if they have the spell and if not giving it to them for free.

I would like to add pallies, rangers, and shadowknight to that list. The only spells right now I don't give away are RGC and Shroud of undeath, hell I even give away group DMF and funeral pyre. Will give rgc to friends no problem, but the fact I can sell rgc for 40k in less than a hour makes it too costly to just give away. I want new trivs because well, I like round numbers.

[Thorn]

Quite simply, you don't need the ancient spells. Saying that they should be researchable implies that you believe that you are somehow entitled to them.

I don't believe I'm entitled or not. I just believe knowledge once found can be found again. Somthing discovered once can be discovered again.

Like it or not, spells are a part of progression. Ancient spells are made for raiders, the same way that gear that comes from a raid will generally be better than gear that can be acquired via soloing, grouping, or via the bazaar.

This is a game mechanic argument. It has nothing to do with the common sence that if 2+2=4 and that knowledge is lost for 10,000 years it there for cannot get rediscovered again. Or take it a few steps up the tree. Trig, If we got slamed into by a comet and lost all knowledge do you mean to say we will never again discover Trig when we start the climb back up?

Coordinating a raid is a difficult thing, and if your guild is capable of progressing as a team, then that is something worthy of reward. Hence, better equipment and better spells. Simply making such items available to any person defeats half the incentive of actually raiding.

<shrug> I am not putting forth a argument about raiding and how much "reward" a toon should get for doing it. I am mearly putting in my 2 cents that any INT caster spell once discovered should 100% of the time be able to be discovered again. Knowledge is never gone forever.

Thorn, consider the prefix: Ancient. As in, hella old. Long-lost knowledge that we are incapable of recovering one way or another. Words, runes, or book pages that no longer exist. Forbidden knowledge from the Gods or other powers that be. Given a real-life example, how much knowledge was forever lost when the library at Alexandria was lost? How many great thinkers throughout history have been silenced for eternity due to political upheavals?

Again long-lost just means you have to start at step one to rediscover that "hella old" spell you don't get the jump start of someones elses research. That does not make it impossible. I kinda reject knowledge for the Gods. We are INT casters not clerics. Our powers are based on the "laws" of magic and not granted to us. The flip side of your real life example is how much knowledge has beed "rediscovered" that was lost when Alexandria was destroyed? Did they have Trig and we have allready (starting at step one) rediscovered that lost, hella old, knowledge? And we rediscovered it without their words, runes, or books

Ebaying happens less than you imply, and people tend to know if an established character is ebayed. Ancient spells aren't about "status" unless you're actually trying to sell your toon. In the context of the game, they're about progression, which is something necessary for the game to exist.

We all have our opinions about e-bay. I've played since beta and to me e-bay happened a lot. With the new server moves and such knowing is a lot more difficult then it use to be.

You hopefully don't think every bit of weaponry or armor should be creatable via tradeskills. The same argument as to why this should not be holds for some spells.

Armor and weapons, as I said in my first post, are a different breed and vary to much in HOW they are created I won't really get into that. The 2 are NOT the same tho. I can think of at least 6 ways armor can be created that would never in a million years be used to create a INT casters spell.

[Cloud]

Soe has stated many times that in oow expansion that they wanted to make getting spells the same as a melee getting a weapon upgrade. Same sorta thing with focus effects for casters. In pop casters could get their spells alot easier then a melee could get a good weapon and they made spells harder to get like a new weapon upgrade.

[Ngreth Thergn]

This is a game mechanic argument.

<shrug> I am not putting forth a argument about raiding and how much "reward" a toon should get for doing it. I am mearly putting in my 2 cents that any INT caster spell once discovered should 100% of the time be able to be discovered again. Knowledge is never gone forever.

And while I understand your argument... And while you have a "realism" point...

There comes a point where it *IS* about game mechanics, and/or gameplay.

SOE for GAMEPLAY reasons has decided that certain things are to be rare and dificult to aquire. Ancient spells are one of these.

And even if you want to stick to the premise of "realism"

I kinda reject knowledge for the Gods. We are INT casters not clerics. Our powers are based on the "laws" of magic and not granted to us.

I dispute that. The Gods made the laws that laws that the magic is based upon. They are also "vastly more inteligent than us mere mortals". Because of this they can come up with things that break the "laws" in worse ways than people can. With this they made the ancient spells. When they saw them in the hands of people they decided not to teach people how to do it.
Later, some old copies of "Scrolls" are found. And while people are able to read the scoll and make the spell work, the weirdness of it prevents them from teaching others how to do it... they just can't seem to explain it.

[Nolrog]

Why not add recipes for PoP spells that use ethereal/spectral/rune as a component?

The problem with that, is that it would require you to still farm up the parchments/runes. Part of the problem is getting them in the first place. Then there's the fact that they are NO DROP, so you'd have to farm them yourself, and of course, then once you do have all the ingredients, you can fail the combine.

[Aeght]

I don't think ancients should be researchable, they are special and should remain so. (BTW, I have none on either of my highest characters who are also frequent raiders) But I do think that all the LDoN spells, the GoD stone spells and maybe some of the PoP spells could be researchable without breaking the game any.

To all those saying that Ancient spells should not be researchable, keep in mind that 'researchable' does not mean 'parts drop off orc pawns.' Nor does it mean 'anyone with a little research skill automatically succeeds.'

Allowing such spells to be researchable would be an interesting way to add a chance at such spells to some of the newer content encounters of similar (or perhaps higher) difficulty.

Thus, people would not have to convince others to go back to raid old content for these, they would have a chance of getting the parts while raiding newer content. And again, even then they would have to develop the skill to research them and still not neccessarily have a high success rate.

That is my take on this issue at least...

Aeght

[Thorn]

And while I understand your argument... And while you have a "realism" point...

There comes a point where it *IS* about game mechanics, and/or gameplay.

SOE for GAMEPLAY reasons has decided that certain things are to be rare and dificult to aquire. Ancient spells are one of these.

SOE "for gameplay" reasons has made a TON of piss poor decisions. 1/2 of em they have reversed later in the game. Again I don't wanna get into what is earned and what is not. I have a few ancient spells I did not earn em in any way shape of form cept I was the only guy who cared to have them. We can if you like get into that discussion.

I dispute that. The Gods made the laws that laws that the magic is based upon. They are also "vastly more inteligent than us mere mortals". Because of this they can come up with things that break the "laws" in worse ways than people can. With this they made the ancient spells. When they saw them in the hands of people they decided not to teach people how to do it.
Later, some old copies of "Scrolls" are found. And while people are able to read the scoll and make the spell work, the weirdness of it prevents them from teaching others how to do it... they just can't seem to explain it.

Now this quote is easy to prove one way or another. The gods did NOT make the laws magic is based on. That is very clear in EQ lore. A lot of the ancient spells are named after their creators and they were not GODs either just mortals like us. And "can't explain it"? I am really NOT trying to offend but thats a cop out. If magic has laws (and it does) then like any advanced math it can be explained.

[Cyrint Aircaller]

Items I won't get into as the "how" of their creation is varied and some of it can maybe defy research (like if a GOD was involved in its creation) but spells are not such a case.

Very handy that the creation of items can defy reason but the creation of spells is open for any1.

[Angelsyn]

Here's an easy one...

It is still unknown how the Egyptians made the Great Pyramids.

Now, given that... why is it so hard to believe that someone in ancient EQ history figured out how to make a certain magical effect that no one has since manged to create?

Please note that some "Ancient" spells (Velious Era, for example) are utterly surpassed by "Modern" spells.

Example: For all that "Ancient: Gift of Aegolism" is nice... "Virtue" blows it away. Yes, Virtue is a higher level spell... but that's because "Modern" people have access to "higher level powers" than the people of the time when "Ancient: Gift of Aegolism" was first passed down.

Just as modern science & technology could build Pyramids faster, stronger & bigger than the Egyptians ever could.

It's quite clear that, if EQ continues on far into the future, there will be spells that make the most powerful of spells available now look like Fireworks. Progression, MuD-flation and ever higher levels will see to that.

[Maevenniia]

Ok wait..."realism" ? /chuckle

Simple fact: SOE does not want Ancient Spells to be researchable.

Until that changes (it may, who knows, they've reversed themselves on things before) you can debate the "realism" of whether we can research Ancient spells til the cows come home.*

*Note, there are no cows in eq.

[Cyrint Aircaller]

*Note, there are no cows in eq.

But you can buy milk in EQ !
Alas then there must be cows to