Ancient Spells...Researchable now?

[Xislaben]

I agree that more spells should be researchable (however, I disagree that spells all the way up to 70 should be. Spells up to 65 should be, because the content is a few years old, but 66+ should not be, because the content is rather new.)

Up to and including 65?

Hello Night Fire?

[Phantron]

You can kill BoT named with 1 group of casuals easy and they've an occasional chance to drop a rune, so I think it makes sense for those to be researchable. I think it'd help everyone because even if you're uber, there's always a chance you just don't get a certain spell back within a reasonable number of rune/parchment turn-ins.

[Nolrog]

Up to and including 65?

Yes, up to and including 65. That would be a nice way to bridge the gap from 227 up to 300.

[Qaladar Bragollach]

There are several places where runes were obtainable with a normal exp group even back when PoP was new, so on that aspect at least there shouldn't be any problem with making PoP spells researchable.

I don't see much reason to do so though. They're not exactly rare or anything. I'm not a supporter of adding new research recipes for the sole purpose of raising research skill above 227... thats chasing your tail.

[Neebat]

I'm not a supporter of adding new research recipes for the sole purpose of raising research skill above 227... thats chasing your tail.

I've been looking forward to someone advancing this argument, if I'm understanding you right.

I think this is what you're saying: Why do you need a research skill over 227? To research harder stuff! And we need recipes over 227 why? So we can advance our skill! That's circular logic.

The flaw in that logic is the assumption that you only need 300 skill when there's recipes that are non-trivial at 299. Maybe we want 300 skill for the title? Or maybe we just want an improved success rate on the expensive combines we already have?

Imagine that all the combines over 227 created extra-shiny versions of the spells we can already make. We already have the need for a skillup path to 300, even if we could never sell the high end results.

There are several places where runes were obtainable with a normal exp group even back when PoP was new, so on that aspect at least there shouldn't be any problem with making PoP spells researchable.

Could a single group hunt named in BoT when PoP came out? Didn't you need a raid force just to get in there? I'm thinking the quest access came later. Even if you had 6 people with quest access, wouldn't you need a comp heal chain to keep a tank (with non-raid PoP-era gear) standing against a BoT named? I don't really know if BoT named could be single-grouped when they came out or not, but I just wanted to see if the "raid-level" notion extended that far for anyone. If so, they could argue that the level 65 spells would be "raid-level" rewards, like Ancient spells.

I honestly want them to be researchable regardless. I think it makes a difference that they're tradable.

[Qaladar Bragollach]

I've been looking forward to someone advancing this argument, if I'm understanding you right.

I think this is what you're saying: Why do you need a research skill over 227? To research harder stuff! And we need recipes over 227 why? So we can advance our skill! That's circular logic.

The flaw in that logic is the assumption that you only need 300 skill when there's recipes that are non-trivial at 299. Maybe we want 300 skill for the title? Or maybe we just want an improved success rate on the expensive combines we already have?

Imagine that all the combines over 227 created extra-shiny versions of the spells we can already make. We already have the need for a skillup path to 300, even if we could never sell the high end results.

Sorry perhaps I wasn't clear... read my post again.
I only object to adding recipes for the SOLE purpose of raising skill. Other purposes I think are valid.

Could a single group hunt named in BoT when PoP came out? Didn't you need a raid force just to get in there? I'm thinking the quest access came later. Even if you had 6 people with quest access, wouldn't you need a comp heal chain to keep a tank (with non-raid PoP-era gear) standing against a BoT named? I don't really know if BoT named could be single-grouped when they came out or not, but I just wanted to see if the "raid-level" notion extended that far for anyone. If so, they could argue that the level 65 spells would be "raid-level" rewards, like Ancient spells.

I honestly want them to be researchable regardless. I think it makes a difference that they're tradable.

Hmm well I was actually thinking of Tactics, but you needed a raid to get in there too early on. Well in any event, LoY research was good because some of the Luclin and Kunark spells were just stupidly rare. That's not the case for PoP spells.

Honestly I think people just want to raise research skill because like the mountain, "its there."

[Maevenniia]

...

Honestly I think people just want to raise research skill because like the mountain, "its there."

Nope. I like tradeskills cause they are fun, and I like making things I and others can use. Players use spells, thus I want more new spell recipes. If the seplls are levels 61-65, based on current spell level / recipe trivial progression, it follows that higher level spells will have higher trivials....which is perfect, since the skill cap was raised to 300 and we have NO recipes that can allow us to achieve this atm.

Additionally, I'm all for new, fun things to make, like wands with limited charges or one-shot scrolls, or new augments perhaps....

[Qaladar Bragollach]

But the proof is in the pudding. Before when the cap was 200 you didn't see threads like this very much... because "it wasn't there." Now it is and you see them.

[Cyrint Aircaller]

BoT was accesible with 1 group (albeit good gear) or 2 groups from the beginning, it was always a quest who gave acecs not a raid.
(was a blody pain to get all guild acces to train city).
BoT wing bosses are soloable today (i have done a few) so level 65 runes are soloable.
GoD spells are obsolute today (with the exceptio of a few ancient maybe) but the continent is rather new so dont know if those should be researchable.

[Nolrog]

But the proof is in the pudding. Before when the cap was 200 you didn't see threads like this very much... because "it wasn't there." Now it is and you see them.

What kind of argument is that? It wasn't an issue before when the cap was 200, but raise the cap, and now you see them? Well, duh. Raising the cap creates new issues that weren't there before.

When the cap was 200, it wasn't an issue that the highest spell recipe trivialed at 227. Last time I looked, 227 was greater than 200. Now that the cap is 300, it's an issue, because you cannot skill up to the cap.

[Qaladar Bragollach]

The only "new" issue that is created is the desire for skilling up just for the sake of skilling up like I already said.

At 227, you can make everything there is. Why do you need higher skill?

[Neebat]

The only "new" issue that is created is the desire for skilling up just for the sake of skilling up like I already said.

At 227, you can make everything there is. Why do you need higher skill?

"Because it's there" is good enough for me. They built the mountain, now give me some mountain-climbing gear! We don't need another reason.

You can argue that some of those spells are common enough now, I have seen that. SOME of the level 60+ spells are silly-rare. For those insanely rare spells, research is a logical solution. Logically they should be harder than the current 227-trivial spells. Again, this alone is enough reason to add more research recipes.

Parchments are pretty darn common to the point of rotting. That's partly because you play the lottery turning them in. Here's what I would consider balanced...

Combine in a brew barrel, trivial 15 (no fail)
1 spectral parchment (ethereal/glyphed would work similarly)
1 flask of water
Yield: blank spectral parchment (non-lore, tradable, stackable)
(Allow anyone to convert those NO DROP parchments into blank, tradable commodities.)

Combine in any advanced research tome, trivial 235
1 blank etherial parchment
1 Part of yaeth's compendium, 104 (right, the left is used in focus of spirit)
Yeild: Spell: Focus of Soul (non-lore, tradable)

Combine in any advanced research tome, trivial 255, 6% minimum skillup
1 blank spectral parchment
1 rune of prexus (which is pretty common and used in ice-spells)
Yeild: Spell: Frozen Wind (non-lore, tradable)

Combine in any advanced research tome, trivial 275, 10% minimum skillup
1 blank glyph rune word
1 words of virtue
Yeild: Spell: Hand of Virtue (non-lore, tradable)

The advantages:
1. existing spell drops are MORE valuable
2. doesn't flood the economy with tons of results
3. spells can be created on demand to fill gaps created by a demented RNG.

[Bobaten]

I think the big reason people are asking for more spells now is they see the current incomplete skill up path as a good excuse to add spells to research that are missing. Hybrids got left out in a big way with the last crop of research spells. Level 51-60 dropped hybrid spells are running 5-10k and up, while most of the dropped caster and priest spells at that level are under 1k. The only exceptions are the "hard to research" spells like RGC and DI, but those are at least available in the bazaar.
So I look at it as people thinking, "ooh, I want to be able to research Spirit of Flame for my BL twink, and since there is an obvious missing skill section, Sony could add hybrid spells there." With similiar logic coming from the PoP spell progression (though PoP spells are generally cheaper for hybrids than 50-60 dropped spells).

[Angelsyn]

The only "new" issue that is created is the desire for skilling up just for the sake of skilling up like I already said.

At 227, you can make everything there is. Why do you need higher skill?

We don't need higher skill.

We want more research so that the achingly obvious gaps and difficulty in getting certain spells (especially Hybrid spells 51-60) get filled in.

[Nolrog]

The only "new" issue that is created is the desire for skilling up just for the sake of skilling up like I already said.

At 227, you can make everything there is. Why do you need higher skill?

Well, for the main thing, the higher your skill, the higher your success rate will be. As someone else mentioned, the gap bettween 227 and 300 would be a good place to fill in the gaps in the spell progression (PoP spells, hybrid spells, etc.)