Your thoughts about the new skill-up formula

[hyphnos]

After looking over the details of the formula, statements by devs, clarifications by posts here and some good analysis by other traders, I began to mull over the new formula and wondered if others of you have realized the implications of what we've been told.

1. Skillups to 175 or so will be a breeze basically. (entailing fewer combines than before I believe)

2. Skillups 175 to 300 (assuming max stats and on successes) come as a linearly decreasing chance from 12.5% to 2.5% on the 299 to 300 skillup.

3. Skillups from 175 to 250 come faster than under the old formula

4. Skillups from 250 to 300 come more slowly and I believe it has been stated that require roughly 20% more combines than the old way on this end.

5. That 20% increase in the expensive, rare to farm ingredient end is "offset" by a decrease in combines in the lower end resulting in a new 15% to 20% decrease in total combines to reach 300.

What is unstated but the logical conclusion to be drawn is:

Any tradeskiller that skilled to 250 before the new formula did more combines 1 to 250 than one starting from scratch would today.

Any tradeskiller who was at 250 (or thereabouts) when the new formula went into place faces more combines to reach 300

The number of combines has been decreased at the lower end where vendor bought supplies are cheap and numerous

The number of combines has been increased at the higher end where vendor bough supplies are generally rare and dropped items rare, expensive or both

The only offset high end tradeskillers have been given to offset the increase in the high end are the combines which will (at some indeterminate date) give a fixed percentage chance of a skillup (as stated I believe DoN cultural and a few other recipes are being considered at around a 10% chance level)

So I pose to you all.

Has this truly been a net improvement for tradeskillers, many or most of whom (excepting those who wisely raced to 300 before the new formula hit) have in fact overall done more combines than they would have if things had simply been left as they were. (having gotten the worst end of both systems, higher combines sub 250 higher combines 250 to 300)

Trivial adjustments seem to be coming soon most likely to the few combines you can do en masse to reach 300 at the newer high combine level as we've been warned.

So then you have to wonder, why is the one offset to the drastic drop in skill rate close to 300 the one aspect of the new system not yet implemented? As best I can tell from developer comments/reports from Fan Faire the fixed chance high combines will be among the last if not the last aspect of the new system implemented.

Finally, in closing I wonder if you guys have a strategy in mind for dealing with the transition.

I am torn between burning through mistletoe sickles, star ruby steins and some high velious tailoring before the trivials are lowered. At the same time doing the truly nice DoN combines later for a reasonable chance at a skill-up has a lot of appeal both in making nice things for friends and avoiding mind numbing clicks creating largely unwanted or unneeded items.

However with a definite not in June 22nd patch and indications that it may be 2 to 3 patches later before the first of the higher chance formulas how, I am not sure I want to twiddle my thumbs and avoid tradeskills waiting on the new system.

Where are the rest of you in the same boat come down? (And hats off to all you who have made it to 300 already in your chosen trades and don't have to think about these things at all )

Thanks for your thoughts

Hyphnos of Stromm
280 Smith
250 Potter
289 Jeweler
300 Poison maker

[Scuzz Zilla]

I feel the pretty sure that the % chance to get skillup is going to make it this patch.

Of course I'm setting up to blow through Shadowscream as much as I can this week before it goes bye bye

[Nolrog]

I feel the pretty sure that the % chance to get skillup is going to make it this patch.

Of course I'm setting up to blow through Shadowscream as much as I can this week before it goes bye bye

I recall reading that the % chance to get a skill up is already live (though not used for any recipes.)

It's difficult to make a determination on how this will be, because I don't have all the details yet. How will the trivials change, what are the new skill up paths, etc. Until I see all the changes, I can't say. I'm hopeful that it makes things better, and makes tradeskills more enjoyable.

[Wyvernwill]

They've stated the skill up % will be going live in the June 22nd patch. However, also going live with the % is the drop in Mistletoe Cutting Sickles, Othmir Fur, and Shadowscream armor trivials.

As for how I've been dealing with it... *shrugs* I just kept on trucking and doing what I was going before they even changed the skill up formula. I've actually noticed a very low amount of combines, all the way up to 286 so far in smithing needed to gain skill levels, but having 425 str has been helping a lot as far as I can tell. I am still averaging about a skill every 10 combines.

What I have noticed is that I have not run into any 100+ combine skids ever with my stats maxed out whenever I do trades. So far, I have liked the changes and it seems more balanced out to me.

[Boleslav]

Your number 1 premise is inaccurate. We have been told that skillups up to 175 have not changed.

Those who were at 250 when these changes hit, and did not immediately race to 300, did in fact get a double whammy and will do substantially more combines to get to 300 than someone starting from scratch.

I am not a believer in the "xxx was painful for me, so it must be at least as painful for others in the future" school of thought though. I am pleased that we can get our skills to 300. I never expect flawless execution from SOE, so I am not surprised, nor bitter, that loopholes existed and some people got to 300 faster than was intended.

My plan has been to slowly do combines needed for items to sell, and to do a minimum of farming for additional combines. However, I will probably burn through the Blessed Dust of Tunare I have in the bank to make some sickles before the next patch.

In general, those that raced to 300 are more motivated than me, and play the game more hours than I do. They would be to 300 by now if there was any reasonable way to do it. The fact that they were able to use an easier way does not fill me with righteous indignation.

Boleslav Forgehammer
Paladin of Brell in his 67th Campaign
Tunare (E'ci) – Sacred Destiny
Blacksmithing 267 – and slooooooowwwwly climbing

[Qaladar Bragollach]

My opinion... the raised the number of combines at the top end and are at some point going to increase the chance of skillup. Net change... zilch.

At the low end its somewhat easier... but that doesnt effect me as I was at 250 on everything before they did it. Also, in those low ranges, combines were much cheaper and easier relative to the top end... so who cares if its easier now. It was already easy.

Bottom line:

It wasn't broken and didn't need fixing.

[hyphnos]

If I was mistaken regarding the number of combines from 1 to 175, I regret my error .I've read a lot of posts and honestly the information about skilling sub 175 to 190ish blew right past me as getting to those levels was and isnt very difficult. However of all the points raised, whether my first assumption was incorrect and 1 to 175 is exactly the same or the first 175 skillups were guaranteed 100%, the gist of what I said holds true.

Let it definitively be known I have no "righteous outrage" at portions of the skillup path being made easier for some than for others. I am quite happy for those who have advantage of the new formula and the new UI and numerous other positive changes that have come along since I first started tradeskilling.

I do think however it is somewhat off base to promote as an improvement a decrease in combines in the lower to middle trivials that generates an increase in combines required at the higher end where materials are rarer and more costly.

I asked for comments regarding what people intended to do until the new system is in place. The mere fact that I think about these things and wonder about them in the planning the timing of my future combines, has nothing to do with my views of my fellow players

I ask any who follow through this thread to please refrain from diverting from the subject at hand. I doubt I speak only for myself when i say I am not so petty as to resent the hard work and achievements of my fellow traders in any way due to changes in the game that are utterly outside their control.

On a more wishful than hopeful note, I pray Nolrog is right regarding the fixed % skillup changes coming live soon. The sticky above from Fan Faire indicates otherwise. (paste of the pertinent text follows) The fact that the % chance has not been decided (as indicated below) would not seem to point to those recipes coming on line soon however

If there is a more clearly stated info from a dev posted elsewhere, it would be great to know the higher skillup chance combines will be added in sooner than indicated below.

Hyphnos of Stromm

Quotation from the above sticky from Fan Faire:

The other major change is that combines that require rare or hard-to-farm components will get a higher chance to skill up on each combine. This is independent of their trivial. So, for example, banded armor is entirely store-bought, so it will not have a skillup bonus. In contrast, something like the PoP elemental armors require several very rare components, so they might have an increased chance of skilling up on each combine. . (The capability to add an enhanced chance to skill up is already live, but so far, no recipes use it.) Once again, this is an issue that will take time to ensure the skillup chances are approportioned fairly.
In addition, all the DoN armors and the Omens tradeskilled augments will carry an enhanced chance. Absor mentioned that some very difficult items could get a 10% chance to skill up (this number is still under discussion and may be raised or lowered, but they seem comfortable with it for a first estimate), which means that on average, you could skill up to 300 with about ten combines per skillup. For comparison, with the old formula it would take an average of 20 combines per skillup (meaning a reduction of 50% in average combines needed); and with the new formula as it stands now, people have been seeing much higher combines per skillup. When the per-combine chances are implemented, they should significantly ease the skillup pains people are seeing at the high end.

Finally, the devs are not averse to adding new recipes to fill in any gaps in the progression of both trivials and power levels of items. They haven't decided yet whether these recipes will be part of a new expansion or free for all players. Either way, these will not be coming soon; the recipes would have to be made after the previous adjustments had gone live and been evaluated.

I asked about when these changes were going live. They said they hope the changes can be made in time for the next patch (not the one on June 22) or the one after that, but due to the scope of the changes, this is not an issue they want to rush. And personally, I'd be much happier if I knew they had taken an extra week or two to vet the changes and make sure it all made sense

[Ngreth Thergn]

if you look more closely at the formula (and the nice graphs Tanker made...)

it is easier up until 265. then at 266 it takes an AVERAGE of 20.5 combines per skillup for a dificulty 2 combine with high stats.... finally hitting the "harder" point.

[Cerpicio]

if you look more closely at the formula (and the nice graphs Tanker made...)

it is easier up until 265. then at 266 it takes an AVERAGE of 20.5 combines per skillup for a dificulty 2 combine with high stats.... finally hitting the "harder" point.

Are these nice graphs online anywhere? I think a visual would do wonders for me, rather than trying to read people's interpretation.


-- C.

[Neebat]

if you look more closely at the formula (and the nice graphs Tanker made...)

it is easier up until 265. then at 266 it takes an AVERAGE of 20.5 combines per skillup for a dificulty 2 combine with high stats.... finally hitting the "harder" point.

I think the original poster's point is valid. For tradeskillers already past 220 or so, the changes were a bad deal all around. Here's what they got:
1. More competition from traders who have an easier progression to 250
2. Harder skillups from 250 on.
It's kind of unpleasant to hear these described as balancing each other out, since both those are bad things for those who have already built the skills.

I had several tradeskills already past the penalty levels before the change, but I really don't mind. It makes more sense this way.

[Macnair]

It appears to me that the intention was to balance two factors (an increase in difficulty and a decrease in difficulty) for combines in the 250 - 300 range:

1. Increase in difficulty: The Average Combines / Skillup would increase throughout this range; and

2. Decrease in difficulty: Certain combines with rare components would have a bonus, a higher-than-normal Likelihood of Skillup.

Presumably, when both of these are live, this will feel appropriately balanced to people.

Right now we have a situation where only one of these is live.

Suppose you work in a factory and get paid piece work. You are a highly skilled worker (skill 250 on our 300 point scale), and so we have you working on a rather precise assembly line. And for pay, you get one dollar for every twenty widgets you complete.

As it turns out, we have just changed the pay scale. From now on you will be getting one dollar for every thirty widgets you complete; and as you continue to improve your skill, the pay rate will steadily decrease so that you will eventually get one dollar for every forty widgets you complete.

But don't feel bad about this, because we are also adding in bonus widgets, where you will get one dollar for every ten that you complete. (We think maybe ten. We haven't decided yet for sure. But maybe ten.)

OK, you say to yourself. I can live with this. In one way they are going to increase how much work I have to do to get paid, and in another way they are going to decrease how much work I have to do to get paid, so maybe this balances out.

Oh, one other thing. These changes are kind of complicated, so we are going to phase them in. So: You get to do all the extra work now, thirty widgets to make your one dollar, increasing to forty widgets to make your one dollar. But we're not going to add in the bonus widgets for a while. After we've had your increased work in place for a couple months, we'll put up an announcement that we might implement the bonus widget deal in another month or two.

So. Your job is harder, your pay is less, and the bonus is ... where?

[Ngreth Thergn]

Are these nice graphs online anywhere? I think a visual would do wonders for me, rather than trying to read people's interpretation.


-- C.

on these boards here: http://mboards.eqtraders.com/eq/showthread.php?t=22246

you can see where the lines cross at about 266

[Phantron]

The analogy is badly flawed. The payoff of tradeskills isn't how fast you can skill up (unless you're doing tradeskill for the sake of just skilling up) but rather what and how efficiently you can make something. The cost of getting a college education is significantly higher than the cost of getting a high school education.

[Tudani]

Just a note...those graphs don't display for me. I just see small white dots where I'm assuming the graphs are supposed to be. Using IE.

[Airl]

Finally, in closing I wonder if you guys have a strategy in mind for dealing with the transition.

I am torn between burning through mistletoe sickles, star ruby steins and some high velious tailoring before the trivials are lowered. At the same time doing the truly nice DoN combines later for a reasonable chance at a skill-up has a lot of appeal both in making nice things for friends and avoiding mind numbing clicks creating largely unwanted or unneeded items.

My goal in smithing is to make DoN GM armor for my half-elf bard. I am a non-raiding, single grouping, and sometimes soloing kind of player. For me, DoN GM gear is an upgrade path. I am not into smthing to make money. I see this as a somewhat comparable timesink to raiding, but I can chose to do smithing when I please without having to be on a set time or for for a required amount of time.

I am not into smithing just to achieve the magical 300 and whaterver title my toon gets for that milestone.

As I see it, the closer I am to 300 the higher chance I have of sucessfully making the armor. So, I was happily farming for an estimated 30-40 hours (a little bit at a time due to my schedule) the components required to make Shadowscream armor. With the announced nerfing of the trivials, I franictally sped up my farming and smithing. I've gone from 222 to 260 in the last week, and I farmed up enough components for 250 more combines, which I hope will take me to 267.

I plan to spend my remaining time and plat burning through sickles up until patch day. If the sickle trivials are reduced, the only other viable route I see is Tae Ew because the drop rate on Master and GM smithing combines are painfully rare.

/sarcasm on

• We will have the new recipes "soon" that will help bridge the pain caused by nerfing shadowscream and sickles.
  
• We will have the new recipes "soon" that will have the higher percentage of skillup.
  
• I will be able to actually farm enough of the rare components to attempt skillups on these recipes

/sarcasm off

I don't have a lot of confidence in how fast Sony will introduce the new recipies, nor my ability to farm the rare components.

The best I can manage with my single group is Thundercrest Isles DoN Missions (e.g., I've done enough of those to earn over 2300 crystals for gear purchases, and I've seen all of one metallic drake scale drop).