RE: Absor's Post

[miakiss]

The theoretical skill up chance only happens if the trivial is very close to the players actual skill. If there are no combines with close trivials the 4% theoretical chance will drop to an actual chance that is below 4%. This means that if there aren't many trivials close together in the 250 to 300 range the actual skill ups will be less than 4% and it could get really ugly especially in those tradeskills that are more difficult, meaning those tradeskills with Y values of 3 or 4.
.

But due to the nature of the formula, this is not really a problem. At a skill of 250 with a geerlock, one has a 95% success chance on combines with a trivial all the way to 291. At 280 it is 334. So that gives quite a wide range potential skill-up recipes.

Of course if they change all the trivials so there is nothing between 250 and 350 then it will be a different story.

[tnexus]

Some recipes flat out have a higher success rate or fail rate than others do. The current new cultural even when trivial is proving to be a 1 in 10 fail rate, but stuff like the tae ew tempers (forget the name) are practically no fail.

[Simpleybad]

It seems to me soe is trying to bite blizzard here. This is a bad move IMO, one of the reasons I didnt like WoW, and quit after only 4 days, was that ts's were nerfed beyond recognition. You basically get a free gm skill(300?) in one ts as you level through the game. The way it is balanced, your ts(whichever you choose) progresses at the same rate you do. It is mindless, there is no farming or tenacity involved at all. Basically, you are guranteed skill ups for most of the items you will be crafting at your level, and if you are not guaranteed one, the chance of a skillup per combine is very very high ( I seem to recall 80%+ here). SOE has stolen this idea: "In the near future (not this next update), we will be introducing a new feature to the tradeskill system that will allow us to add a new flag to some of the recipes that require more difficult to find items. We haven't given it a name yet [Blizzard calls it World of Warcraft], but this new flag will allow us to set a minimum chance to gain a skill increase on specific recipes. Basically, if we assign a minimum skill increase chance of 50% to a recipe, then there will be no less than a 50% chance of gaining a skill increase on that recipe." You'll notice this guy is trying to pawn this off as some kind of bonus to the tradeskillers. He states that this new "flag" will be for recipes with "more difficult to find items" as one of their components. I think ultimetly, this "flag" will have nothing to do with giving ts'ers some more skill ups, it is just the implementation of SOE's new and improved WoW ts system. And knowing sony, it will be some half-ass attempt which in the end, will only leave things fubar'd.

From everything that I have seen I am thinking that EQ's TS's will be nerfed beyond all recognition to the extent that wow's allready are. I really think they should be hardened. It is way to easy for power-gamers(which I am) to level tradeskills. I think SOE is taking ts's in the opposite way which that they should.

[splunge]

It seems to me soe is trying to bite blizzard here. This is a bad move IMO, one of the reasons I didnt like WoW, and quit after only 4 days, was that ts's were nerfed beyond recognition. You basically get a free gm skill(300?) in one ts as you level through the game. The way it is balanced, your ts(whichever you choose) progresses at the same rate you do. It is mindless, there is no farming or tenacity involved at all. Basically, you are guranteed skill ups for most of the items you will be crafting at your level, and if you are not guaranteed one, the chance of a skillup per combine is very very high ( I seem to recall 80%+ here).

'Nerfed' is a bad term. WoW tradeskills are just done differently.

The skills are far from free. Training and learning recipes gets progressively more expensive as you go, and at the high end, most recipes are drops (some of which are very rare), which players who get them can/will gouge you for.

Not having to farm actually would be considered as freeking incredibly AWESOME by a lot of people. WoW does a really good job of hiding 'grinding' and 'farming' in other things. More often then not, you get the drops for tradeskills naturally as you hunt/level, and the stuff you hunt is usually for a quest (questing is actually cleverly disguised grinding, with cash/gear/faction/bonus xp rewards).

You can actually sit down in a particular area and grind out xp or farm tradeskill stuff (or even stuff to sell in the Auction House), but I find it to be a LOT more boring and tedious then actually questing and exploring. The boring tedium required to accomplish a goal is one of EQ major drawbacks.

If im questing or doing an instance with guildies, i can find myself playing for hours without ever noticing. If its just brainless solo grinding/farming, i can lose interest and actually feel physically tired after about half an hour.

Another good thing is that 'camps' are almost non-existant. I cant really think of any tradeskill item offhand that only drops in one small area that someone else can be hogging. Leather for leatherworking is a guarenteed item from any 'beast' mob in the game. Cloth for tailoring drops from any level-appropriate humanoid. Ore for mining/smithing/engineering can spawn in any of dozens of points in a zone, so many points that trying to camp one spot is pointless.
Etcetera and so on...

Some of the items/gear made at the top end of each skill are *EXTREMELY* nice and used often by even the top raiding 'ubers'. Ive heard of people even dropping one tradeskill alltogether and skilling up a new one from 1-300 just to make one item they happened to get the recipe for.

The skillups are very simple in WoW. In your recipe book, you look at the *color* of the text of the recipe name. If its orange, you get a skillup if you make it. Period. Guarenteed. No RNG. No suffering thru 300 combines for a skillup. If the text is yellow, you got around a 75% chance for a skillup. If its green, between 25 and 50%. If its grey, you can not get a skill up from it.

If you gather tons and tons of materials for a skillup run in EQ, you can burn them all up and get 1-2 skillups. Or none. Or 25. Or.. ???

If you gather tons and tons of materials for a skillup run in WoW, you can go from 1-300 in probably 30 minutes.


Does it sound like im trying to sell WoW? =D

Of course there are some drawbacks.

Commonly made skill-up-path items suffer from 'sickle-itis' as theres far too many available in the AH, and you have to drop your price to what a vendor will give you for it often to try and move it, or just dump it on a vendor anyways.

Oh, theres no vendor-diving by the way. Anything you sell to a vendor poofs.

Theres also a very small number of recepies available compared to in EQ (but then again, EQ has been around for many years and many expansions)

One other, and quietly major issue, is bank space. Its very limited. You get erf... its either 24 or 30 bank slots (its early and i cant remember and the servers are down for a major content patch), and you can BUY more bank space... or rather you can buy slots to put bags in.
Muling stuff is also weird. Unless you have 2 accounts and can hand stuff from one to another, muling involves MAILING the stuff to another character, which not only costs 30c but it wont arrive for 60 real-time minutes. Funky, eh?

Another thing is *everyone* does tradeskills. Theres really no reason not to, even if you just pick up 2 of the 'gathering' skills and sell what you gather in the auction house. Getting from 1-300 in some of the 'creating' skills in WoW is nowehere near the ordeal it is in EQ, and you can quite literally do it in one day and turn a profit and have some really nice gear upgrades doing so.
In that aspect, thers far less sense of accomplishment.
When i hit 1750 in EQ i broke into tears in joy/relief and dances around my room.
When i got 300 in Leatherworking in WoW I was like (yay).

----

Because every class can solo 1-60 in WoW with a pretty even ammount effort, and because tradeskills are moderately eesy, and progress lineraly as you level, its very easy to hit 60 and have maxed tradeskills in a relatively short period of time and end up saying 'Now what?'
Fortunately, the classes are pretty different and playing alts its lots of fun (one thing i really didnt find appealing in EQ)
Aside from my 60 Night Elf Hunter (the 'ranger' of WoW, but not really. theyre a pet class that shoots arrows, and has FD. Its weird) i have a 40 Human Warrior which has 300 engineering (aka tinkering, but you can make guns, bombs and mechanical dragons(!!)) which is pretty fun (still feels weird that i can solo a warrior =D). Ive also made a Troll Shaman on a different server which ive really been enjoying lately. Im doing leatherworking as well with her, as it seems far more leather/mail creations are more suited for shaman then they are with hunters, so ill have a greater variety of gear to make/use as i progress.

Hopefully, when they come up with an expansion they will expand tradeskills even further. (Not raise the cap, i mean, but add more recipes and tradeskill quests)

Sorry for the long ramble about WoW tradeskills. I just wanted to offer a better view of how they work from someone who only played for 4 days.

[Twistagain]

In your quest to 250, there's probably a good chance you'll be making enough rare combines for people that it will negate the 20% modifier.

I don't know about your server, but on mine, you aren't given a chance very often at combining rare combines unless you are already max on that skill with a geerlock/trophy/better, salvage 3, and mastery 3.

So, that quote isn't accurate for me, at least.

As for the change, I am not against it, per se...I don't really like it at this point (skills are 300, 289, 255, 240, 231, 200, 200), but I think it is a good change overall. But, I don't think it makes tradeskills more of an accomplishment, nor do I believe tradeskills are easy, or something you do because you are bored.

I have worked very hard for a very long time (4 years+) to get my skills where they are. The 300 is in baking (which is very easy) and the 289 is JC. At this point, there is no easy progression for me except for brewing, and that requires hours and hours of mushroom farming. The rest all require a LOT of plat. I've blown over 100K on tradeskills past 200 in the past year. I am BROKE. I am not a raider, I'm not a "daytrader"...I'm just SOL. I make money while I hunt and, when I get a few K, I make what I can afford. It is a very slow road...and when (not if...WHEN) I hit 2100, I will be extremely proud of my accomplishment regardless of how many people claim it is too easy and you can just buy your way there.

[Zacatac]

I have to agree with that. Even when I had max skill before the cap changed, it wasn't good enough for most people. They wanted the people with all the AA's as well to give them the best chance of success.

So not only do I need to grind more skill ups, I need to spend my AA's as well. And I don't get many AA's sitting in Shadowhaven at the forge, so it's rather difficult to do both.

Oh, and 2 hours of smithing, 1000 CE's bought in the bazaar, and I get 1 skill up. /sigh (I hate sickles). Making it "harder" just doesn't appeal to me much. I remember it took me MONTHS to get those last skill ups from 244 to 250 long ago.

[Mahlig]

Call me a non-conformist if you will, but I am stoked by the changes. Sure, many people here have done a lot more Tradeskilling than I have. Lots have discovered more recipes than me (my count is 0, btw). And many people are more frustrated than me when it comes to the changes. But understand, I was one of the first ranters about the Erudite skillup cultural (prior to the "new" cultural....prior to the robes) armor. I have been tradeskilling a *long* time. Back when Terrorantula Silk came only from Terrorantula! Talk about your tough farming. Now, there are a lot more Terror Silk droppers, but the original armor is still horrible (purified mana for stuff that trivs at 100ish? ) And you guys complain about the resale prices of items now...you can't even sell that stuff for twinking! But I digress.

Who cares that you already passed the 160-190 range? So have I. But these changes revolutionize the tradeskills. Just like the new interface did. Just like the addition of Wu's (anyone else remember when it was just the gauntlets...looking for Greater Lightstones). No matter what they implement, someone is going to whine. But I read a recent post somewhere that the average level character is between 35 and 50. I *doubt* all of them (heck, many of them) are between 160 and 190 in all tradeskills. They are trying to appeal to the masses and are asking the people who went through it if they would have liked to have it when they went through it. And do you see the feedback they are getting? "No way should you make it easier on them than you did on me unless there is something in it for me." Errr...Thank the gods that the people who run www.eqtraders.com don't think like that (/bow to mum and Ogre).

Well, from one person that has completed the Signet of the Arcane (and nearly 1750), let me say bravo to SoE! I am excited about the changes and can't wait to see them. Further, I would challenge that each of you think about the good of the game instead of "what about me". Would you have wanted these changes when you were skilling up? I think you would have. 6 years have found me playing EQ...and with promising changes like this, I will be here for another 6 years. Thank you SoE for continuing to challenge, intrigue and excite me about this wonderful game.

[Ziela]

I think the outcry is not that people don't want it to be easier for those doing 160-190 in a perverse desire to make them go through what we did. It's the increasing the combines needed from 250-300 by 20% that is unreasonable. The unknown in that I guess is how well their "minimum skill-up" recipes will counterbalance the change, as well as the trivial adjustments. If there is a more reasonable skill path (ie you don't go from making something 248 trivial to 335 with no options in between), and you can throw in some harder recipes that give you say a minimum 25% chance to skill up...well then the overall changes would be positive imo. I would much rather do a smaller number of difficult combines than spend hours and hours clicking. So much depends on the overall implementation of these ideas that I am going to try to reserve judgement till they're through.

[Mahlig]

If those 50 skillups are 20% harder, no biggie. I think I read that Absor said they were "easier than intended" anyway. The overall 0-300 is 15% easier (according to the post) which makes 0-250 *much* easier. And the promise of more recipes to smooth the skillup path where there are a lot of gaps is great news as well. The ability to have an increased skillup on new or "difficult to gather the ingredients" recipes is just gravy. I am withholding judgement as to the implementation (based on the premature lowering of the trivials of the hardest to raise skill), but the ideas earn a gold star in my book.

[Mannwin Woobie]

My personal take on this...Their goal is to slow down the progression from 250-300. "Smoothing" out the rest, removing the 180ish hell levels, adding the 'increased chance' flag, etc., are all just bones being tossed in to lessen the blow. After the comumunity backlash on the tailoring trivials, they are just trying to do some public relations up front this time.

[Cloud]

They need to add some kinda special reward quest for people who have alrdy gone through the hard levels and past 190. Maybe a 8% mod to all trade skill item or a few skill points in all trade skills that are over 190. It just like they are saying all u hard working trade skillers out there who went through the hell levels we are going to make the levels u are working on now harder while removing the hell levels u went through. I am sure they can calculate a good number of skill points to make up for the extra combines we had to go through before the hell levels.

[YurienStonebow]

i ahve to disagree with you there Cloud. i don't see whyt ppl need to be given any points, as much as i would like some free points, for what they have already done. i don't remember anyone getting free points when banded trivals were lowered. everyone is going to have to go through some hell lvl. just because we already past one part of it doesn't mean we should get a bonus for already doing it. i think the point of changing the hell lvl now is for the new TS ppl, those that are still trying to figure out what the containers look like. what you're saying is like all the people that bought a Model T yet complaining they want a new Cadillac

[Cloud]

its not the same thing they are saying raising hte number of combines from 250-300 by 20pct and lowering the number of combines from 160-190 by 20pct or whatever. That means we will have to be doing 20pct more combines to get to 300 then anyone else starting after they change it.

[Mahlig]

To quote Absor "Basically, the average number of combines per skill-up needed from 160 to 190 was too high and those needed from 250 to 300 were too few."

Getting from 250-300 was easier than it was meant to be. Therefore, following your logic, anyone above 250 in any skill should be lowered? Moreover, the padded numbers from 160-190 were *not* erroneously implemented (unlike the simpler 250-300 skillups and the tailoring trivials). It was as intended when the max skill was 200. It is being removed because it no longer makes sense. "No longer makes sense", not "never made sense". So anyone that has gone through it should not get any bonus. If anything, those that have taken advantage of the lower skillups than should be necessary should be punished (No, I am not advocating this...simply showing that it would be more logical) since it is taking advantage of a flaw in the system.

Luckily, SoE does not think like that. Simply, they will tip their hats to those that got to the 300 and correct it for those that have not.

[Blayze Meduenin]

no those over 250 dont need to be lowered.

The point is everyone over 190 already has gone through 1 'hell lvl' period.
Everyone under 160 will after the change have 1 'hell lvl' period to go through (which will happen later rather than sooner)

The problem is those who are over 190 (have gone through 1 hell lvl) but are still under 250 ( or to a lesser degree depending on lvl, under 300). They will now have to go through a second hell lvl.

In a nutshell everyone who got to 300 under the old systm will have had the harder time, those who arent over 160 when the new system goes through will have a slightly easier time (possibly depending on triv changes etc), those who are between 190-250 when the system changes will have had a far harder time from going through the 'hell lvls' twice in effect where in the other 2 cases they had to do it once.