RE: Absor's Post

[Alkure]

I wouldn't have a problem with the shift of difficulty from the 160-190 range to the 250+ range, if they adjusted the skill level of those above 190 to put them where they would be "on average" in the new system.

Otherwise, my blacksmithing and tailoring days are over, given that my tailoring skill is 191 and the blacksmithing is 225. I will not go through skill up hell twice.

Greatest idea yet. Given the formula, im sure they could easily adjust current skill levels to reflect where they 'should be'. Makes more sense than adjusting levels and making people sitting at 250 or so have to do more work than the others.

[Blayze Meduenin]

Exactly. If they smooth the trade skill ups they need to adjust peoples skill lvl accordingly.

Like they did xp lvl when they smoothed out the hell lvls.

Its the only fair way to do it.

The problem is what if someone is at 200 (post the 160-190 hard bit) and hasnt got the tradeskill aas. Will they adjust up beyond the cap or set some flag so they get the adjusted skill lvl from the change if/when they get the aas...

[Obina]

Can I confirm what you all think Absor means by the minimum chance to skill up flag? Does this mean (as I read it) that if a recipe is trivial to me, then I still might get a skill up?

If so, this means that there could be some recipes used for skilling up from the-soon-to-be hell zone of 250 to 300 that have a trivial below 250. Perhaps we can skill up on Solstice Robes even though the trivial wont move! Perhaps not the sort of recipe this is ment for, but it seems it will be at least possible computer-code wise.

It sounds like this will add skill up options anyway.

Or does this just mean that for non-trivial recipes, some will be better than others? It does seem to me that making a Lore Black Acrylia Halbard, with hard to get (for me) Akheva blood, should build my Smithing skill more than churning out Shadowscream.

Separately, I for one refuse to be goaded into dropping every thing and making a run to 300. Firstly, this is not how I view TS. I do it to make things, not to have the number. Not sure I want to get Pottery to 300 for example - I can make what I want at 260! Secondly, if it is 20% tougher, but there is a recipe with ingrediants 50% easier to get (for me) then it might be better after the patch than now.

[Drukin]

I can't believe that more people aren't up in arms about having to wait still longer for tailoring changes.

"We'll mess you over for tailoring now, then we'll wait a couple months to implement our new ideas. In the meantime, please continue to pay us your monthly fee. k thx."

[Maevenniia]

Can I confirm what you all think Absor means by the minimum chance to skill up flag? Does this mean (as I read it) that if a recipe is trivial to me, then I still might get a skill up?

Um..No

Or does this just mean that for non-trivial recipes, some will be better than others?

Yes

[Eggszecutor]

These changes sound great. I too also like the "minimum chance of a skill up" for some recipies. I think those will become the focus for a lot of skilling up; especially in hard-to-raise skills like tailoring.

[miakiss]

Exactly. If they smooth the trade skill ups they need to adjust peoples skill lvl accordingly.

Like they did xp lvl when they smoothed out the hell lvls.

Its the only fair way to do it.

The problem is what if someone is at 200 (post the 160-190 hard bit) and hasnt got the tradeskill aas. Will they adjust up beyond the cap or set some flag so they get the adjusted skill lvl from the change if/when they get the aas...

Ummm... that's exactly what they DIDN'T do when they got rid of the hell levels..

If you were 83% through level 45 before the change, you were STILL 83% of the way through level 45 after the change.

I would be completely amazed if they do anything to adjust people's current skill level. It's not that I don't agree that it would be nice (especially for those like me with most of our skills sitting in the 190-250 range), but it just sounds too complicated, error-prone and potentially confusing.

But... stranger things have happened... like when they got rid of hell levels after saying for years it was impossible

[joatmoneq]

Unsat

I think this is a great idea........ done a few years too late, and this definately isn't a case of better late than never.

As it is now, it will do more harm than good, and penalize/anger/discourage the folks that have worked hard to raise their skill up high, but haven't been able to max the skill yet.

If SOE is trying to encourage more players to start tradeskills thats understandable, but penalizing existing tradeskillers just isn't right. Imagine the roar SOE would hear if they suddenly added 20% more pre steps to do for the late/mid stages of PoP, GoD, and OOW flagging to everyone who hadn't gotten the last flags yet, after making it easier for more folks to do the lower parts of that work.

This is also a nice double whammy for the tailors.

I just wish they would stop fiddling with (ie breaking) stuff that worked and fix the numerous broken things in the game.

[Dutchy]

Separately, I for one refuse to be goaded into dropping every thing and making a run to 300. Firstly, this is not how I view TS. I do it to make things, not to have the number. Not sure I want to get Pottery to 300 for example - I can make what I want at 260! .

Not sure how things are on youre server but on TM where I am tradeskills are completely messed up, if youre not 300 on the skill, and often even if you are at 300 skill, youre still selling most of your final products at a loss. I love making all my own stuff but usually I can find finished products on my server in the bazaar for 25% of the creating costs of what it would take me to create it. (Examples would be gem studded chains for 100pp, bazu breastplates for 20K while the bloods alone go for more, eartweave gear between 6-12K while the at my skill buying the components even with lesser failure AAs Id have to cough up an average 20K a piece, valorium rings of gallantry at 2K each while metallic liquids run for more on my server)
As for pottery, I'm at 300 skill at the moment, ceramic shields of valor often sell for 5K, components costs 6.5K on my server in the bazaar... I can make m with practically zero failures but if I sold the components I gathered for them in the bazaar instead I'd be pulling off a 1.5K profit and I could buy the shield without any risk on a random failure.
As a 292 Jeweller, I can get 1.5K for my iron amulets of unseen horror... or I could sell the parts I collected for almost 3K, and buy 2 amulets from another jeweller from that plat....
As a 300baker, I still buy my misty thicket picnics at 1pp each in the bazaar since I dont find it worth my time anymore to create them when they are going for that cheap. (5 GM baker chars btw, using bristlebanes party platters on all of those)
As a 300brewer, you probably get my point by here.... I buy my drinks from other brewers selling at their component costs and below it.

Secondly, if it is 20% tougher, but there is a recipe with ingrediants 50% easier to get (for me) then it might be better after the patch than now.

The way I'm interpreting Absor's post is if the ingredients are easy to get, their trivial will be lowered which in my personal opinion will most likely lead to all the 335 solstice trivial combines being lowered to 252. It's a risk I choose not to take myself after what happened to the tailoring economy on my server. I'm sorry but as a 247tailor with -10% failures I find I highly frustrating if friends ask me if I can create a robe of ancient earth for them and I have to tell m to go buy m at the bazaar prizes because buying the components seperately will cost m way more than buying the robe and that I'm still facing only a 60% succes chance on it after he/she buys the stuff for it......

When I started on tradeskills 5 years ago I did it to make a few pp to get my lvl 52 cleric out of her bronze gear, after I reached that goal I did tradeskills to be able to supply my guild with solstice kits they could afford when they where still going for 10K and I could create m for 50% of that to help people out. Those days are over, solstice kits can be bought in the bazaar for 2K which is way below component costs. The tradeskill economy is already completely ruined in my eyes on my server, I'm just trying to hit 300 in all skills asap just for the title and to keep doing all my combines for guildies and friends for free with the best succes rate possible. In the meanwhile, I'm practically destroying my plat on tradeskills and turning the succeses in for my guilds tribute since I refuse to sell 300+ triv items for 25-50% of their component costs in the bazaar.

[Lazurus]

Eek! Urrgh! Arrgh! hmm anymore deep /sighs at Absor can we manage.

First things first the good news, I really like the idea of some reciped being flagged for a greater chance to provide a skill up, it shoudl hopefuly mean expensive and tiem consuming, even dangerous recipes will become worth while. My pottery sat at 247 with my potters trophy, I think in that time since PoP when I pushed it above 200 I've made over 100 PoP pottery combiens with high trivials you know I got my first skill up from them today to 248. Now ceramic shield of valors aren't hard to get the components for but they certainly don't sell like they used to but Ro incense burners and Rathe totems? Those parts are just daft to get hold of.

However with regards to the smoothing out of tradeskills...omg what are they thinking? Yes it's a fantastic idea to make it smooth and flowing but most people here that care about tradeskilling are already way past that point and have invested many, many hours and potentially large sums of hard earnt platinum as well to push towards high skills. Hell to join the 1750 clum and the 2100 club you have to have at least reached 51st level (yeah it's fast compared to the good ole' days) anf plowed a into tradeskill cap increases. If this was implemented from day 1 of EQ then great, or if they returned all our hours, pp, effort, swollen/damaged fingers/wrists and reset every one to 0 and said go for it again then it would be an even playing field for all. Right now this is goign to land as a double whammy for those who have plowed through the high number of combines and are going to face them yet again going over 250. Lets not forget the fact they are up front saying it will take a higher number of total combines to 300 a skill.

This spurs me into instant action. I tend currently to spend a little while each day working on my skills for fun and to eliminate the painfulness of farming, sub combing and combining for hours and hours in a row. It certainly is slower but stops me going spare. Right now I'm going straight back online and plowing everythign I can before we start raiding this evening. Farming for shadowscream is the worst thing I've ever done in my EQ life of over 5 years but pain aside I'm against the clock now, I just hope I'm not goign to find my server trade skill farming spots more crowded than Kunark on release of the xp potion

Guess I need to go out an aa as well to unlock JC, Smithing and Tailoring /shudder.

Absor if you are out there, and we know you are take heart we've battled, researched, practiced, farmed and come to accept and understand the systtem we currently have. Make it better yes but don't spit in the face of those the system means the most to while you do attempt that.

Volunteers to right new guides for all skills when this goes live? Poor Denmother will be busier than on an expansion release can you imagine every trivial changing? Have a heart...

And while you are at it how about letting Half-Elves use the cultural fletching of their diety? My ranger was born many moons ago when Ruins of Kunark was new and exciting if I'd known then I woudl have sadly choosen Wood Elf as my starting race. After all you let me reset my home point from surefall galde to Kelethin for Origin so why not go all the way?

[Dutchy]

Volunteers to right new guides for all skills when this goes live? Poor Denmother will be busier than on an expansion release can you imagine every trivial changing? Have a heart...

Updated my own tailoring guide... once I get to 2100 ill update the rest after it goes live because I promised some people to keep m updated. As for poor Denmother.. couldn't agree with you more, thats going to be a ton of work on the site changing all the trivs and adding all the minimum skill up chances =(

[tnexus]

I think what you're all forgetting is that even with a 20% increase to diffuculty in raising tradeskills, you're also an increased chance to skillup on rarer items. From the looks of it, they are making tradeskills a real accomplishment to have, not just a skill from boredom. In your quest to 250, there's probably a good chance you'll be making enough rare combines for people that it will negate the 20% modifier. I'm not a huge fan of what some of Sony has done, but I've seen enough good and helpfulness in Absor and Maddoc to the tradeskill community to at least hope that they've taken this into account.

Tnexus

[Wyvernwill]

Adjusting the skill rates would also have to factor in the people who are already 250+ which means that they would be losing skill points, which I don't know about other's view points, but I don't see that as very fair anyway. Giving someone something then taking it away is also not a good way to go about this. When they removed the hell levels, my experience did not change at all and I was only 10% full on lvl 60. It smoothed the whole path out. It still required the same exact amount of exp to get to 60, the whole path was more evenly spaced than one level costing twice the exp of the previous.

Pretty much impossible to do with tradeskills because you would have to factor in multiple bad runs vs people who never had to do more than 60 to get a skill up, there's really no way to smooth it out that is fair across the board unless they went back into the logs of every character and factored in every TS combine they did that would gain skill and then figured out what their adjusted would be. Way too much work for no reason other than to negatively impact a good number of tradeskillers and give a bonus to very few, probably even less.

[Taushar]

I am not sure how to take this news, I won't know for sure until it's implemented. Meanwhile, I am just plodding away at combines to get everything as high as possible. I have hard time believing that they would make it easier for us to skill up. I mean look at the past implementations. They nerfed the Fine Steel trivial in Smithing to make it "better" for us. How about increasing skill up difficulties on Fletching, Pottery, Smithing and Tailoring? They didn't make other skills easier, just made those harder. Now with the recent Tailoring nerf, it is even more difficult getting skill ups.

They have made it easier to combine by making more than two containers open at once. They also made it easier by letting you mass imbue/enchant things. They introducing combine buttons on the tradeskill containers to make combines easier. However, I don't remember anything change that made it easier to skill up. Can anyone remember anything that would contradict my theory?

As many stated, fixing the "hell level" of 160-190 sounds like the first time they are actually making it easier to skill up. However, that comes at a sacrifice of higher levels, which I suspect that most of us are at today. BTW, how is it smoothing out the skill if the higher level is more difficult to skill up? To me when you smooth out the progression, that means you have the same chance to succeed in skill up at level 10 as at level 270. What they are proposing is more of a exponential skill up, not a "smooth" linear skill up.

After getting the easier skills up to 300, I tried to get smithing up and spent about 6-7 hours of farming for 40 combines. That got me total of 2 points. This is current system, not the new proposed system. That means I would have to spend over 150 hours of farming for me to get from 250 to 300. That's on top of all the raids I need to attend and XP groups I need to AAs to get better at tradeskills. And it will only get worse after these changes go in.

I would say if they have a few recipe changes that comes to our favor, then I may take my words back. However, from the past behavior, I would doubt that very much. I am, for one, going to try my hardest to skill up before these "nerfs". I may be broke at the end and probably won't enjoy the game as much between now and then, but it sure beats what is coming.

Taushar

[gpofcore]

The original post by Absor made it sound as if 160 to 190 were hell levels, but this was more correctly stated by Absor as "the average number of combines needed for a skill up more than quadruples between 160 and 190." The progression from 160 to 190 is actually linear, as is the progression from 0 to 190. At 160 the skill up rate for near trivial combines is 20%, and for 190 it is 5%. Therefore, the skill up rate at 190 is four times less than that at 160 which is where the 'quadruples' comment comes from.

What they seem to be doing is extending the linear progression out to near 250 which makes it easier to skill up from 0 to 250 as Absor stated. The skill up rate after 250 then changes from the current 5% theoretical chance (1 skill up in 20 trys) to a 4% theoretical chance (one skill up in 25 trys).

The theoretical skill up chance only happens if the trivial is very close to the players actual skill. If there are no combines with close trivials the 4% theoretical chance will drop to an actual chance that is below 4%. This means that if there aren't many trivials close together in the 250 to 300 range the actual skill ups will be less than 4% and it could get really ugly especially in those tradeskills that are more difficult, meaning those tradeskills with Y values of 3 or 4.

The new hell levels will be 250 and up depending on what and where the available trivial combines are. So, for those of us above 220 and not yet significantly above 250 we get to go through another, even more difficult, set of hell levels in addition to the ones we went through from 190 to 220.

Let's hope it makes us stronger.