Trader Etiquette in regard to Pricing and Collecting?

[Svetlana]

Hi everyone, something vaguely disconcerting happened to me over the weekend, and I thought it would be a good idea to seek input and feedback from other players with perhaps more experience in this.

I'm not a hardcore tradeskiller, but I do enjoy tradeskilling. I find it soothing to sit somewhere and watch my skill go up, and it's nice to be able to make useful items out of the things I pick up while playing.

This weekend, after consulting the brewing trivials list and the Brewing forums here, I decided to make kaladim constitutionals to achieve 300 brewing. I collected my mushrooms, had a friend make my corking device, and went to work with my combines. After a while, my bags were filled with KCs. I put some in the guild bank, and because no one was online at the time, I decided to sell the rest in the bazaar to recoup the costs of tradeskilling. There was no way I could drink up all that by myself, and I was reluctant to sell to a vendor because I hate seeing things go to waste.

There were two other traders in the bazaar when I went there, both selling in bulk and both priced similarly at 9p 9g. Since I was anxious to sell what I could to empty out my inventory for more combines, and because I had roughly worked out the cost per KC at about 1-2pp or so, I decided to sell mine at 8pp. I just wanted to be able to sell quickly to people that needed the drinks, to recover my poor bank space.

I then went to sleep. When I woke up, I noticed that both traders had lowered their prices to 7p 9g, undercutting me by 1g. I wasn't surprised, but simply lowered my price again, because I did not wish to stand in the bazaar for too long. Shortly after, I received a tell from one of the vendors while I had gone afk again. He informed me that I would never be able to undercut him, that he would always be able to sell more cheaply than I could, that I could either match his price and we could all be happy, or he would keep undercutting me. Since I was afk, I was unable to reply to this, and he continued to send more tells, informing me that he had a superior yield of 3.98 per combine (with geerlok!), that this was his market, that I should conform to their pre-decided price.

When I returned, I was a little surprised, and annoyed at the peremptory tone. I've always felt that people should be free to price their products as they wished, and I've never sent angry tells to anyone that undercut me. So without replying, I simply lowered my price below his again. He then sent me a tell chiding me for being difficult...

This was a very strange situation for me, but I wanted him to stop spamming me with tells, so at last I responded. I told him I thought he was a little strange for being so absolutely determined to keep his price lower than mine, that his manoevres did not really affect me because I was not overly concerned with my profit margin, but that I did have to go raid then and could not continue to participate in his price war, and that I would probably be giving what I could to my friends. He replied that they would now go back to the price it was before (9p 9g), that if I did not care about the returns, I should have sold to a vendor instead of spoiling their market... I told him that he had marked his product up by more than 8pp, and at that huge markup I wasn't going to feel guilty about pricing mine lower than his...

Anyway, I went on to raid, and gave away what I could, and after that ended, I did some more combines in my quest for 300 brewing. I then went to trader and again, there were only the two vendors selling at 9p 9g. Again, I set my price lower than theirs. Again, when I returned to my screen, there was a flurry of tells from the same person. He scolded me for not conforming to his price, accused me of lying about giving the drinks to m friends, and told me in a very angry tone that he had spent effort building this up (don't ask me what, I have no idea) and he would not allow me to get a free ride off him. I told him that all the effort and components were mine and I certainly did not receive any free ride from him... He said a few more things to me, aimed at convincing me to adhere to his price, but I told him I was going afk...

After this, the other buyer came by and bought me all out, which allowed me to recoup my costs at least. I then logged on an alt with space and went to kaladim to gather more mushrooms for more combines. I was the first and only one in zone and at the patch. Two spawns of mushrooms later, I suddenly saw someone /say "want to alternate? if not i will be happy to race you". Turning around, I saw a lvl 9 pally. He told me that I could either let him have the next spawn and we could alternate from there, or he would race for spawns with me. From his speech pattern, I could tell he was the same person as the vendor that had harassed me... What a small world!! I protested that he wasn't being entirely fair in just showing up and demanding the next spawn, but he was as good as his word and raced me for the next spawn. Feeling extremely aggravated now, but not wanting to have a huge fight over something so trivial, I agreed to /roll on the next spawn and then alternate. While we waited, he told me that he had his alt permanently camped there, that he "made kaladim", that he took in 40k a week from the sales, that he believed he was the highest brewing skill on the server at 298. I asked him if he did not see that as a huge waste of time, to be camping KCs for money when he could have been playing (foremost on my mind was that 40k/week from KCs must involve a lot of time and effort, which he could have spent on something more profitable), and I told him that I personally knew at least one 300 brewer... He then mumbled something about having to rush to cash in on the market while other people were not 300 yet...

I realize that has been a very long story, and I apologize if I've been too long-winded. My question is only this. Was I in the wrong? I felt extremely uncomfortable about the whole matter. All I wanted was to get 300 brewing, and to play EQ in peace. I did not expect so much hassle in the matter, from the mad vendor spamming me with arrogant tells to collude in fixing a price, to having him fight with me over kaladim groundspawns, of all things. Has anyone had this experience, and is there something I should do next time?

[Kemie Dreamshadow]

Sadly, there are people in the game who seem to believe their rights supercede everyone else's. There are those who take great pride in "owning" the market for certain tradeskilled products, and who will do all they can to discourage others from competing.

I would suppose you could try using the /report function, if the tells are truly vile or obnoxious, but I'm not sure it would really serve any purpose. The only person I ever ran into who behaved in a similar fashion never responded to reason, and did, for a while, take all the joy and fun out of my tradeskilling. I put him on ignore for a while, and went on to other things.

Of course you have a right to make what you want to make, and sell it at a price with which you are comfortable. Nobody has a right to "control" a free market like this one, no matter what that other fellow believes. Possibly if you can make the person understand that you do not plan on making the item forever (i.e. permanently competing with him), and that this is merely temporary, he'd lay off you, but it's been my experience as I said before that this type really doesn't care what your rationale is anyway.

If he's permacamping the mushroom spawns, and shows up absolutely every time you do, I certainly WOULD report him, though. SOE frowns on individuals who refuse to allow equal access on a permanent basis.

I'm sorry that your game has been tainted this way, hon, and hope things do smooth out for you soon. *HUGZ*

Kemie

[Nefertiti Nazguul]

Sounds like this "angry market controller" is nothing more than a child. Instead of selling your wares in the bazaar..set yourself up in POK. Get yourself a consumer market that knows they can get the drink far cheaper from you than this punk in the bazaar. Have them send you tells and keep the item in stock at all times. Then this guy won't have no more customers because you took them at a cheaper rate.

[Aeght]

Particularly since his harrassment continued, I think you should have /reported him every opportunity. You both have a right to set pricing any way you please, however he does not have the right to dictate price, declare any particular spawn his property, or in any way harrass you or anyone else.

Personally I would not have told him he was being reported either, but rather let him dig himself a deeper pit.

Aeght

[Nolrog]

I agree with Aeght. You should have reported the harassment. And to spite that little jerk, I'd have lowered my price to around 3pp per, AND I would have made up about 1000 of them, just to be sure everyone on the server had some. (but I'm an *** like that)

[Taadieri]

While it is true that everyone has a right to set whatever prices they wish, and while you should certainly /report the other trader if their behaviour was truly threatening or abusive, I actually understand their attitude in this instance.

The other two traders had settled on a price that was sufficient for them to make a decent profit and actually continue to supply that product to buyers even when they are not skilling up. You came along and set a price that was enough below theirs to guarantee virtually all of the sales would go to you, but not enough lower to increase the market by drawing in people that would be willing to pay your price and not theirs. Then you repeated this pattern when they responded in kind.

It sounds like the attitude of the person sending you tells could stand to be improved but they have a valid point. Since the actual production costs are only a couple plat per KC, the game you were playing with them could easily continue for several steps with each side becoming increasingly frustrated at each step.

You would have been much better off to either match their price exactly at which point any attempt by them to undercut would be more obviously an attempt by them to deny you a market, or else to offer the KCs at half or less of their price in which case they could hope that yours would sell out quickly and you would be out of the market, leaving them to continue making their profits.

I usually follow one of two practices when setting prices. Either judge the production costs (including time), rarity of components and utility of the items and set my own prices based on that without regard to what bazaar prices are running. Or else match the lowest price I see in the bazaar and adjust up or down if I see a long term trend. In either case, the sellers that annoy me the most are those that repeatedly undercut my prices by 10% or less (or 1k or less for higher ticket items).

[Melinia]

You have the right to set any price that YOU want to sell a product at. Even if it turns into a net loss.
This is a no win situation and nothing new. The first time I went to sell Misty Picnics (trying for 300 baking) I looked at the average price and marked mine as such. To hopefully spur some sales I decided to a bit of RP advertising. Wouldnt you know, some smuck decides to ridicule me for even trying to sell them at the average price rather than dropping them lower than the lowest seller.
Whether you meet or beat someones price... there is always some jerk who will not be happy.. ya cant please everyone, 'sept yourself.

[Britneyy]

Someone did that to me once with Misty Picnics, little did they know I had over 10k banked on various chars i showed him..

[Verdandi]

I usually match the lowest price others are selling at in the Bazaar, unless it seems too low or MUCH too high. I don't undercut unless I feel people are getting completely ripped off by the higher price. However, that is all a personal decision. You have the right to price as you see fit.

I wouldn't worry too much about his fussing over undercutting, since he proceeded to do it right back to you. When anyone protests something by doing it right back, it gets hard to take them seriously. He could have matched you, if he really thinks that's truly the noble route. He was just being a brat and trying to scare you off because you were messing with his beverage cartel.

The following you into Kaladim part, however, bothers me too. Technically, no one can "own" a mob camp, and two parties wishing to share a mob spawn would be asked by GMs to take turns. I would assume the same applies to shrooms. So in that respect, he had grounds for asking for what he did. But this guy deliberately followed you to Kaladim (well, with an alt). The timing makes it pretty clear it wasn't an accident and he was only there to harass you. So for that, I'd say petition it. (/report is for reporting lines of text someone says that are offensive or that back up a petition. /petition is for asking for help with anything, including something that's been reported. I don't think they even look at reports unless someone petitions and mentions that they did one. So make sure you petition, too.)

If he continues targetting you with tells or other pestering, you should definitely petition. Don't let him make you feel guilty or intimidated. He's just a punk with a little too much emotionally invested in his Kaladim Constitutional business.

[Saleani]

I'm kinda like Verdandi on this. But I have quit lines of business when folks undercut me like you've been doing.

People who are going to buy Kaladim Constitutionals will buy them, lowering your price a few plat won't increase the market at all. Others won't be tempted by a few gold here or there to start using them

Sample: on my server, there was a shaman selling gate potions for just over cost (2600pp for a 10 dose potion is about 1% over cost of parts). Even with the +15% tradeskill item, and 18AAs spent on alchemy mastery, there was no possible way that the player could make a profit at that price. As a result, all the other players making gate potions quit making them. The player undercutting the market also quit making them. It took about 6 months for the market to recover from that single person's actions.

[Karthos]

Yep, I agree. The guy was a jerk about it, but you're actions could have damaged the market for some time leaving people without reasonably priced food and drink.

[Svetlana]

Hi again, and thank you everyone for your quick replies.

To those that posted in support, thank you for your kind words. I think the best part was knowing that other people felt the same way. I was beginning to wonder if KCs were a hidden goldmine that I had been missing out on, and questioning the rights and wrongs of not following a market cartel. It is a relief to know that other people empathise and agree that pricing is largely an issue of choice.

To those that offered input, I thank you for your advice. You have offered me some food for thought. I understand the concerns about undercutting being frustrating for the legitimate vendor trying to turn a profit on his tradeskills. Let me clarify that it was not my intention to destroy the market, nor set my price so low that no one could turn an adequate profit.

The reason I set my initial price lower than theirs was a combination of the large disparity between their cost and their price (they priced it at 9p 9g and it only cost them 1p 5g to make) and my desire to sell quickly because I don't have the time to set up a bazaar trader very often. I figured a price of 8pp would not be unreasonable, and would leave room for plenty of profit. In the price war that ensued, I never went below 4pp myself. I've since decided to settle my price somewhere in the 5-8pp region. I have no desire to join their cartel because I found his attitude so off-putting.

Should I have agreed to collude with them from the start? Well, the feedback here has given me something to consider. I think that, if he had approached me in a more friendly manner and offered to work matters out to a mutually beneficial conclusion, things may have gone differently. That he started out by trying to intimidate me or spam me with tell after tell, informing me that he would always sell cheaper than I would and that I could never match his superior yield per combine, and then refusing to let the matter drop, made me unwilling to participate in his scheme.

[Bobaten]

I will admit that in general, people who undercut prices annoy me somewhat. I entered the kc market ~6 months ago. There was 1 person selling them at that time, he didn't always have them, and his price was 25pp. I realized it was a nice mark up, so I made my own, and also priced at 25pp. A few weeks later, a third person started selling them, they priced at 24pp. I generally ignore people who undercut by small amounts, I find most buyers don't care if they can buy something for 1pp less (and some people who find that practice to be rude actually avoid buying from them). The original seller, then undercut to 23pp however, and of course the new guy went to 22. Another seller joins in and soon enough they are all priced at 20pp (or 19.9), and I decided it is time to lower my price to match (my 20pp profit per bottle is now down to 15pp profit). Of course the undercutting continues. Eventually, I make a large run of kc, and mark it at 12pp (undercutting the then low price of 15pp). The new sellers who were in it for a quick buck, sell out their current stock and stop competing. I take my price back up to 25pp, and gee, they still sell fine. Since I am the only one selling them now, I decide to raise my price by 5pp each batch, and see if they sell. When DoN came out I was up to 40pp a bottle, and selling just as much as I always had. Of course, since then the market has been flooded, plenty of people skilling up are selling them cheap (10-12pp) and I have lowered my price to match (and of course my success rate doubled with the 50 new skill ups).
So, yes, I do agree with this person's attitude on people who undercut just because they want to sell theirs first. And I have considered sending a tell to someone asking them to not undercut and just enjoy the profits at the current market price. But I know that such a tell out of the blue is just as likely to persuade them to match my price as it is to drive them to actively try to undercut my price (the bazaar version of "road rage"). It's a free market, any one can enter at any time, and trying to convince everyone to match my price is futile.
As far as mushroom farming goes, I just log in my farmer when I am changing characters, grab a round, and camp again. If there is anyone already there, I just camp. I have heard of as many as 3 people sharing that camp at one time, I don't see how they can justify the time spent.

[KB1]

Price lowering is good for the customer base. Do we all not shop where we can get the best prices in real life? Just price em low enough he buys all of yours again. Quick and easy.

[Lumukanda]

a bit late but throwing in my 2cp.

I agree with most of the others, there is no 'set price', but whatever you want to charge. And homey was just wrong for following you to Kaladim to harass you. There are no camps.

About the pricing, look at what Wal-Mart has done to the market, nation/worldwide. They have eliminated many competitors, made themselves profitable, all by the idea of customer service, low prices (and in Sam's club-volume sales).

In short, charge what you want. Realize that you could possibly make more plat, the market will rebound, depending on the volume demand for the product. And part of that potential market will never see the bazaar because of a.) friends b.) guildies c.) the bazaars reputation for profit gouging. There will always be undercutting for various reasons (dumping excess stock, wanting a quick sale for quick profit, etc.)