Trivial Changes (The Good, The Bad and The Ugly)

[Treefriend]

Maddoc?? I'm not sure.....

Please, My barbs were not pointed at Maddoc--unless!!! The shoe fit. I pointed at the corporation or at least at the EQ micro-division. It is clear that this expansion came out, ah.. shall we say.. as a fast fix, desperate response to other options opening up in the gaming market.

The cultural tradeskills are the only saving grace to this warmed over version of LDoN with it's lavish sprinkling of upgraded toys to give the combat veterans warm fuzzies. It looks to me like it is the only portion that has had any constructive thought behind it. Because of that I can imagine some 'higher power' putting the pressure on to include as much as possible, as quickly as possible to see if the exodus could be slowed, thus prematurely implementing changes that might 'look good' to an administrative type that knows nothing about tradeskills. On the other hand it could have been the minion that was trying to rush something to the boss in hopes of an 'attaboy'.

I know not. So my comments were thrown to the cyber mail in hopes that those that actually made the decisions might get an idea of what at least one player thought.

[Taushar]

I am somewhat puzzled about this change. The intent of this nerf was to make things more difficult to skill up since SoE believes that the skills are too easy to max, or so it seems to me. I checked the posting here that lists all the 1750 club members who decided to post their skills. Let's say even only half the actual 1750 members have posted here. That still means only about 15-20 people on each server at most have achieved 1750 status. Making to 2100 will be even smaller, even with the "easy" recipies. So, Let's look at this in perspective. SoE has said on the average about 2000+ characters are on each server (I have heard up to 4000 on some servers). Even if you have 20 people who are 1750 member on each server, that is less than 1% of the total population who holds this title. This feat is not EASY from my perspective.

Hmm, so using an example from real life, if less than 1% of the population in the US is a millionaire, it must be way too easy for people to make money so goverment should institute a new tax system so their wealth is reduced, therefore keeping the number of millionaires in check.

I don't understand the logic at all. I can understand if half the population has Expert Artisan title you want to limit that but less 1% of the total population is way too many to have this title? It's way too easy to get there? Even if you just take people who has 250 in a particular skills, I would doubt that more than half the population has any Master tradeskiller title on any of the skills. Come on, I don't buy it.

Taushar

[Whipcream]

oh my =D

[Wyvernwill]

Well... though I hate to disagree on tradeskills being far from easy (partly, because that would mean I would be inadvertantly agreeing with SoE, another part because I don't think they are "easy" when it comes to skilling, just component gathering.)

To GM almost every tradeskill, if you have enough plat... you can GM one trade very easily doing almost nothing buy purchased items. Jewelcrafting, Fletching, Pottery, Baking, Brewing can all be easily brought to 250 doing nothing but vendor combines. Going from 250 -> 300 can almost be done completely also just by vendor combines. Examples:

Gem Studded Chains, Jewelcrafting, Trivial 335
Shadewood Bows, Fletching, Trivial 282
Star Ruby Encrusted Steins, Pottery, Trivial 335
Misty Thicket Picnics, Baking, Trivial 335
Brut Champagne, Brewing, Trivial 335

All of those are very simple, fast easy methods to gather for and skill on, especially if you have the cash to do so. One can argue that not everyone makes millions of plat, however if you look at the rare items that sell for good prices in bazaar (Fungi Tunics, Boots of Flowing Slime, etc.) all of those can be easily farmed a LOT faster than tradeskill items, sold and turned into vendor bought TS items.

Tailoring and Smithing also have rather simple, though time intensive ways to skill up (Tailoring not anymore, but I am back dating this a bit).
Solstice Ceremonial Robes
Mistletoe Cutting Sickles

Those are easy ways to skill up, and just because people don't post, there could be a lot more expert artisans than you'd think. I know a LOT of people that did Aid Grimel, I'm sure a good number of them finished off maxing trades also.

To be honest, what I am hoping to see when the dust settles from all of this, is that SoE view tradeskills as something difficult to raise skills in, therefore adding some new items that are better than say the current exp group drops, but maybe a bit less than raid drops. At that point, tradeskills would become very well worth the challenge. As it currently sits, most tradeskill stuff barely touches drops from five expansions ago's raids. I for one, would like to see some things being more up to par with current gear from tradeskills.

PoP was awesome for tradeskills, especially at the elemental level. I would love to see more tradeskill stuff happening like that... version the very very minor upgrade that trades got from Omens in Murkglider vs Silk, Charged vs Plate, Bazu vs Chain, and Feran vs Leather. If you look at the Strife gear vs the Earthweave robe, you have a very minor upgrade indeed, and it's similar across the board.

The new cultural is a good starting step... let's hope things keep getting better.

[Veril]

EQ is setup so that Raid Characters are 'better' than non-Raid characters and high level characters are 'better' then low level characters.
The philosophy behind EQ reflects this pretty much through the whole game.

The new change to the maximum skill, the level requirements to get the new cultural armours, and the allowing of the +10/+15 items acquired by raid level characters reflects this philosophy exactly.

I have the +15% smithing gauntlets from Vex Thal. I spent hours upon hours getting the Vex Thal key, getting killed in numerous wipes, learning Ssra, VT etc, spending hours waiting while raids were sorted. Getting the gauntlets was the payback for all of that. And they cost a bundle of loot points from my guild. Now I have the appropriate reward - it puts me at the appropriate level of advantage over non-raid tradeskillers as I am over non-raid characters. I'm really happy at that and I think it is correct.

Here's the logic chain
1) I am as skilled a smith as you are.
2) I have a very powerfull and rare magic item that enhances smithing.
3) You have a common smithing trophy.
Which one of us should be the better smith?

The answer is logically me. You might want that to be different, but logic dictates the answer. If you want that boost, then you have to play the 'philosophy' of the EQ game. Get into a raid guild, be high level and raid. Raid kit is the best kit, in tradeskilling as in everything else. Live with that fact.

What I want to know, is where are the +10/+15 items for the tradeskills that don't have them...

[Bobaten]

Here's the logic chain
1) I am as skilled a smith as you are.
2) I have a very powerfull and rare magic item that enhances smithing.
3) You have a common smithing trophy.
Which one of us should be the better smith?

That is my main point too. The tradeskill trophies are just that, trophies.

Congratulations, you are a really good smith/tailor/fletcher/etc. Here is your shiny doodad.

Everyone who gets to 250/300 can get a trophy, the extra work/expense to get a trophy is trivial compared to getting the skill. Most people do tradeskill for the sense of accomplishment. Giving away an extra 30 pts cheapens some of that accomplishment. Obtaining the current 10-15% items is also an accomplishment. Even if they no longer require full raids, they still require some work to get. As it currently stands, to be the best tradeskiller possible, you must pass 3 trials.
1. 300 skill
2. Level and AA
3. Kill low end raid targets.

Why take away one of those trials?

I should also add that I don't possess anything beyond a 5% modifier. And I also agree that the tradeskills that don't have a special 15% item should have one added on a similiar difficulty mob.

[Treefriend]

Why? Good question

I am somewhat puzzled about this change. ......

I don't understand the logic at all. ......

Taushar

I don't pretend to understand all of their logic either. However, there is one part I do understand that has been discussed to some extent in other threads but is relavent to this thread too.

Review a couple facts.

1. EQ is the product of a business oriented on profit.
2. Profit is based on subscriptions--not time on line.
3. People subscribe to things they want.

Tradeskilling is a solo experiance. The most social part of the whole EQ tradeskill experiance is this board and others like it. In fact, on line tradeskilling is PvP as we vie with each other for drops, farming camps, selling hype, etc. (please take that as a generalized statement as I recignize those tradeskillers that are evangelists of the arts and actively assist others). The point is that solo=one subscription.

Raiding, guilds, high end toys etc. only available via a collective effort are the things that not only draw people together but are socially exciting. This results in bonds between players and addition of new players. These result in 1) new subscriptions and 2) renewed subscriptions.

How does this relate to the present changes? Why are the trivials being messed with? A good explinaton escapes me but I firmly believe it will be related directly to the above. I believe that EQ sees tradeskillers as single individuals that only need a few lines of code now and then to keep the subscription paid for. Our products have never had a very noticable or lasting impact on game play--and may never.

The possibility is here now. The new cultural tradeskill products give us something to toot about. Even the hardcore raider raises an eyebrow at a wristguard that has an atk bonus, mana regeneration AND two more slots to put those DON augments in. Won't the lower trivs encourage the use of this avenue as a skill up path? I think so, though we still need to see what will happen with the drops needed for the items as it seems they have been modified also. Where can we get crushed diamond dust now?

[Caladel]

Re skill mods, they either need a lower cap or to add in a lot more mod items. Personally i think the cap should be lower. Id rather not see skill mods inflated all over the place.

The point of a high mod item should be to let a subpar trade skiller to master the art of making something, rather then letting them make somethign that master cant. (im using the word cant, not the best word, but take it in context)

If they were to make it a 5% above cap max, ie 315. Then the higher percent mods would still have the benefits:
1) Allows someone with subpar skill to make an item above their level. IE a 274+15% is the same as a 300+5%. Dont have to become a master to make the same items.
2) Allows someone to overcome the hard skill restricted combines with subpar skill.

Really thats enough of a benefit. You dont need a extra success rate on top of that.


No i dont have higher +% mod items then the bag of 5% trophies. But, yes i am more then capable of getting them if i was so inclined. I never concerned myself with them because i thought those without the skill would benefit from them more then i would. Was the first at 250all on my server, the first with 2 chars with 250all on my server, if not all servers(yes im a freak). There was no point in looting the higher mods over others when i was already capped.

Assuming they dont cap them or something similar, i will probably make it a priority to gain the higher mod items. But, i dont beleive that type of advantage should exist. It didnt usto exist pre don.

[Cenebi]

Ok, so after reading every post here, (which, considering how many points have been repeated, not many people seem to do) I have determined that if trivials will soon reflect the difficulty of items to obtain, all cultural fletching will be nerfed, and thus I had better get to 300 fletching before this (to those that said the kits are broken, I know the old surefall fletching kit is working, i've been using it). However, this is not what Maddoc said, you have all been taking a couple phrases out of context, he also said that trivials would reflect how powerful an item is, which means cultural fletching will probably be largely unaffected. He also said that he is trying to make a smoother skill-up path.

On the point of people saying that they should reverse it, if only temporary, so that you can use up all of your materials, this would be a good thing for SOE to do, though I doubt they will, considering that it will only be changed again later on, and the same thing will probably happen.

One last thought, I noticed that the title of the thread seems to have nothing to do with skill mods, so why are we discussing them? Did we just pick a random thread to start an argument about them?

I do hope that they do not make getting 300 something that you must raid to do, because I had trouble getting my guild to do the raids for the ranger epic. It is simply unfair that the people who have all the time in the world to play EQ are the only ones capable of enjoying the game to it's fullest. Yes, mobs should exist that are much easier to take down with a group of dedicated raiders, but it should not be impossible to take them down without said group. Of course, having a mob that was thought to be unkillable (the sleeper) until someone finally killed it was kinda cool, it gave everyone who raided a hurdle that even the very best could not clear, and thus gave the entire raiding community a common goal, as well as a chance for people to actually become known throughout the community.

[tnexus]

I think we already assumed it was going to be nerfed. The big question was when.

[Cuva]

Counter-Intuitive

Reading this thread made me realize something I've taken for granted as an EQ trade-skiller which might be counter-intuitive to non trade-skillers, which would include most of the people at Sony I quess.

1) When trying to raise a skill you want to avoid the disappointment of not getting skillups.

2) The RNG is streaky.

3) The best way to avoid the disappointment is to do a lot of combines at once. That way you average out the streakiness of the RNG.

The bit that is obvious to us and maybe counter-intuitive to sane people is that the more painful it is to get the components to skill up on the more of it people do before combining so as to avoid getting the disappointment of no skill ups after something so painful.

Someone should explain the mad logic of hard trade-skills to the people who pushed this live so they understand how fantastically bad a piece of customer service this was.

(I am new here so didn't know maddoc was behind the hreat improvements to trade-skilling, kudos to you.)

[Ghismonda]

Tailoring Shears still raid mob

Va'Dyn is immune to charm. Shei is still most certainly a raid mob. :-( Was this changed recently, perhaps even in response to this thread?