Changes to the Top 10?

[Nolrog]

Its not a derail, its a specific request to remove an item that clearly has larger issues to it. Item 6 is not going to happen easily, there are a lot of issues to making JCM open, and if you really don't want to discuss this DEAD ISSUE, then perhaps removing it from the current top 10 makes the most sense.

You are saying its a dead issue and not open for discussion, so am I. Lets agree to remove it.

I find it astonishing that a moderator is permitted to label an opinion about the top 10 list as a "derail", when everyone else is permitted to have an opinion either for or against any other item in the top 10 list. Its not your place to decide my opinions, nor censor them by labelling anything you disagree with as a "derail". Item number 6 is an ACTIVE item on the list, and I am expressing an opinion about an ACTIVE ITEM ON THE LIST. There is absolutely no derail in any manner whatsoever.

Don't take it personally. SML was just warning others that this would not become a debate about JCM. It wasn't nesiscarily directed at your post.

[Trellium]

She didn't reply to the others, which were in favour of item 6.

She replied to mine, which was not.

[Maevenniia]

What Nolrog said.

It's not personal, I just don't want tot see others jump in responding to what you & the previous poster (from yesterday?) said about JCM and derail the actual purpose of this thread.

So vote
YES - get rid of #6
or
NO - don't get rid of #6

... but please don't rehash all the whys and wherefores? Pretty please with Marr Cherries on top?

[greebmushroome]

suggestion for #1 request: give us back our high-trivial solstice robes and velious leather combines....

[Trellium]

What Nolrog said.

It's not personal, I just don't want tot see others jump in responding to what you & the previous poster (from yesterday?) said about JCM and derail the actual purpose of this thread.

So vote
YES - get rid of #6
or
NO - don't get rid of #6

... but please don't rehash all the whys and wherefores? Pretty please with Marr Cherries on top?

Ahhh, I see. Well ok then that is fine. I still am confused about why not a single other post on this thread is limited to YES/NO response, and I also haven't seen any previous indication that discussion here is not permitted (and does indeed appear to be the norm). I don't actually see a single post on this thread limited to Yes/No, so you probably see my confusion.

YES - get rid of #6

[Maevenniia]

Ahhh, I see. Well ok then that is fine. I still am confused about why not a single other post on this thread is limited to YES/NO response, and I also haven't seen any previous indication that discussion here is not permitted.

YES - get rid of #6

Discussion is fine, BUT "discussion" about JCM is NEVER just discussion for long, it very quickly degenerates into hostility.

And this thread is not for discussion about JCM, it has a different purpose.

If you want to debate JCM for the 1000th time, then you are welcome to start a new thread in the JC forum....(I know I'm gonna regret even suggesting that /sigh)

Enough derailing.

[Brodybeard]

New Top 10 Item:

Please restore the tradeskill recipe trivial values that were reduced in the March 3, 2005 patch.

(Okay, okay... I'll wait to see if any good skill-up recipes have had their trivial values increased or if any good skill-up recipes have been added.)

[Moraganth]

1) Velium weapon to Velium ore conversions Additonal information provided with the 2/4/05 update
2) Bag tokens:
3) Rotating stock on vendors
4) Nitram Anizok's plight
5) New Bag Designs NEW item added with the 2/4/05 update
6) Expanding Jewelcrafting Mastery to other skills and classes
7) Omens tradeskill materials are too rare. Additonal information provided with the 2/4/05 update
8) Balancing the Grand Robe / Grand Tunic / Phylactery quest for melees
9) Excessively low drop rates for PoP temper components
10) Research Trophy NEW item added with the 2/4/05 update
__________________________________________________ _________________________________________

1 - The work to figure out if there was a possible macro-expolit took less than 4 hours. They have all the info, someone just needs to DO the input.
2 - lists been made, and made, and made again....They have all the info, someone just needs to DO the input.
3 - I'd put this at #1. There are easy work arounds to the problem (items falling off vendors), even as easy as coding vendors to respawn every 3 days? 5 days?
4 - This SHOULD be easy, deffinately easily doable in the months and months it's been on the list.
5 - New icons for items is always nice.. not really a priority for me, but i can see it being helpful to some.
6 - remove it.. put something useful in here.
7 - Aug items were meant to be rare, but with the DoN buyable augments basically trivializing the OoW augments uniqueness, no reason not to increase some of the rare drops... but not by any extreeme amount.
8 - Not sure that it isn't already. Melee/hybrids get a nice clicky buff item, casters get a bonus. Given the general pattern of melee equipment being superior, and recieveing superior upgrades over casters.. it's nice to see 1 quest actually give a caster something nice.
9 - Increasing the droprates will ONLY give elemental farmers a better way to make plat. Don't think so? Te new increased droprates of select pop components has not driven down costs in bazaar, just made more available to be sold at the same prices. Increase the droprates by making them drop in instanced elemental zones that everyone can access, that are devoid of names.
10 - Research trophy would be ok, and will/should eventually happen.

Additions:

reasonable (read reasonable difficult if you must) skillup paths for all tradeskills to 300.. not storebought, any gimp can do them in 2 hours paths. (suggesting level 61-65 spells be researchable as a path for research, or even a way to SCRIBE spells)

[Celestya]

Just to voice my opinion...NO - don't get rid of #6.
*huggles the SML* Poor dear.

[Nolrog]

So, no changes to number 10, then. Skill up routes to 300 are all OK?

(Note, extreme saracasm)

[Maevenniia]

Actually, much as I wish I could get JCM on my wizard, I vote to remove it for now.

We need to highlight more urgent issues, such as the lowered trivials for Tailoring, which is one of the two most difficult tradeskills to skill up in. We were asking them to provide MORE skillup options, not less....

Solstice Robes trivial lowered to 252...why?

-they are expensive to make, ESPECIALLY when you succeed (Gem-Studded chains)
-with the lower trivial, we will succeed more often (usually desirable but NOT for this recipe) and so our costs will go up
-they have a very low tribute value and sellback value, so no one is using this recipe to get rich or max out tribute
-they require a LOT of subcombines, and the more complicated a recipe is, the higher the trivial should be, in my opinion


trivials for velious leathers...
- usually the BP and leggings have a higher trivial than mask, cap, etc...so why lower ALL trivials to 252 (if the reports are correct) and not have them scale upwards? ex: tunics, leggings trivial should be 282

edited to add: Yet another reason to un-nerf the trivials: Velious leathers and Solstice Robes, although requiring a lot of farming, were at least more viable than PoP Tailoring. It's well-nigh impossible to farm PoP tradeskill components (hence a request to increase PoP component drops is already in the Top 10!)


I REALLY hope Verdandi is right and this nerf heralds more skillup recipes for Tailoring to come, and SOON!

[Neebat]

Perspective...

Step back and be realistic about what's really making life tough for tradeskillers. Here's a suggestion:

1) Better skillup paths to 300
Include notes on all the current gaps. Tailoring, research, fletching, alchemy all lack good routes. This IS our number 1 issue.

If we only want to complain about the recent trivial changes, we'd be missing the point. We need a skillup route, but whether or not that includes the Solstice Robes is up to SoE.

2) Tradeskill items are too rare
I think this is number 2 on everyone's list, but the list of items varies. Make a current list with the standard suspects.

3) Rotating stock on vendors
This affects all tradeskills. Periodic vendor respawn would be a quick, dirty, but passable solution. They haven't ruled OUT real rotating stock, just said it's more than a day's work.

4) Bank space
Can we a request an area be created for tradeskill containers and tools? Every time they add a normal bank slot, it's 11 more database entries per character, but if the slot doesn't allow bags with contents, seems like they might go for it.

5) New Tradeskill containers
Collapsible research tomes should be on this list. If portable forges went in, it would take away part of the challenge of the skill, unless the weight were 80.

6) Nitram Anizok's plight
One tradeskill, several simple fixes. For instance, when he's not up at his usual spot, (because of the quest) pop a non-quest version at the zone till he's due to respawn in his usual place.

7) Expanding Jewelcrafting Mastery to other skills and classes
One tradeskill, unlimited debate

8) Velium weapon to Velium ore conversions
It's convenient, but changes game balance.

9) Research trophy
In a way, research is 3 separate tradeskills and this should be easy to fix.

10) Balancing the Grand Robe / Grand Tunic / Phylactery quest for melees
A single quest makes our top 10 list?

*) Bag tokens
What's left to tokenize?

[Anexkahn]

With todays patch, tailoring needs to be specifically added to the problem with skill up paths. Solstice robe nerf was retarded, but even if they are justifying it by trying to eliminate vendor based progression paths, there was no reason to hit vellious armors.

[greebmushroome]

With todays patch, tailoring needs to be specifically added to the problem with skill up paths. Solstice robe nerf was retarded, but even if they are justifying it by trying to eliminate vendor based progression paths, there was no reason to hit vellious armors.

NEITHER change makes sense. solstice robes still require a truckload of spider silks, which no vendor currently sells.

i really expect a post, either here or on soe's tradeskill forum, from one of the tradeskill devs explaining WHY these were done, assuring us that 1) this was an error, or 2) there are a bunch of other comparable recipes introduced. if the latter, i want to know how soe will refund my time and plat for the velious leather and solstice robe combines i have prepared to run.

[Dupers]

Tailoring Skill-up's need to be addressed, and hardcore. I can provide you with plenty of backing for this.

1.) There are no reasonable methods to skill up to 300 that someone can do on their own. It would take a raiding guild days in the EP slaughtering mobs to get a good 200 combines worth of components, which will only net 20 skill ups if you're really lucky. Not to mention those of us in guilds past EP have even more limited access to said components.

2.) Tailoring has in the past and today is still the hardest tradeskill to increase, and it has some of the most minimal gain from it. Yes EP tailored armors can sell somewhat okay, but tailoring is not widely used much like some of the other tradeskills. Baking and Brewing are two of the easiest, and let's face it, anyone who is level 70 in a raiding guild who doesn't use stat food is insane. Two of the most used tradeskills are by far the easiest to level. Yet one of the hardest to level is one least used with the fewest ways to level it effectively. I hate to say it but even fletching at this point looks more feasible.

3.) They did not nerf any of the other paths to 300 for the other tradeskills. What was the reason for doing it to tailoring other then to make it even more impossible then it already is?

4.) The point of the UI and abundance of recipes out in the world is to make tradeskills easier. I for one resent tradeskills being made so easy, but that's beside the point. Why make one or two tradeskills impossibly hard, and the rest of them so incredibly easy? Jewelcraft can be done 100% by vendor bought items. So why does tailoring have to be 100% farm intensive?

5.) Why are the subcombines for the Solstice robe more difficult then the robe combine itself?

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Okay new point that I'd like to see added to the list. Tradeskills are too easy (ducks an egg). The reason I say this is back in the day the player based economy for tradeskillable made items was ripe and we could make good money off of it. Now, I can't sell my MT picnics for 100pp a stack. I can spend an hour making MT picnics and not even net 3000pp. I can spent two and a half hours picking up mushrooms in Kaladim and I have to sell the kaladim constitutionals for 200pp a stack.

I love the tradeskill UI, don't get me wrong, but it made tradeskills WAY TO EASY! I personally feel that hte UI shouldn't be allowed to be used until you reach 250 in that particular skill. Make people work for the right to use it. I got to 250 in all 7 main tradeskills off of manual combines. Solstice robes took days to make 200 combines worth. Misty Thicket Picnics were no picnic at all. Minotaur Hero's Brew made you a hero for making it successfully. Now, any newb can make phat plats off of tradeskills because they don't have to put in half the work we used to have to put in. And the tradeskillable economy has taken a dirt nap because of it. Stonewood Compound Bows, arguably the best playermade bow in the game, won't sell for more then 25k now on most servers. That's a bunch of crap. We spend fortunes skilling up, countless hours doing it the manual way, and now every noob in the world can accomplish in a few days what it took us months, in some cases years to accomplish.

To give you a good perspective of what it took to level tradeskills back in the day, I remember it took me about two weeks to get to 250 in brewing. A couple weeks ago I did it on an alt in a little over an hour and thirty minutes. How lame is that?