Questions and thoughts

[Velorek]

I've long had some thoughts about tradeskills and the mechanics of the system. In light of the recent info that has come about from the Vegas Fan Faire, I've finally decided to post them and gather some input. If any of these have been asked before, I apologize.

First, shouldn't the caps on tradeskills be revisited? We've seen the level cap increased from 50 to 60 and then again to 65. We've seen the addition of the AA system, the Leadership system and tons of new gear and loot that completely overshadow anything before it. But in that same timeframe, the cap was, is and always has been stuck at 252.

Increasing the cap even 100 points could open the door to a world of new and complex tradeskill recipes. It could also give current tradeskillers more options for progression. And honestly, just how much further can they even take tradeskilling without increasing the cap? Adding new recipes that have ever-increasing yet unattainable trivials doesn't expand the system. It simply creates more frustration for the player because they know that eventually, the odds of success will never increase once they rech 252.

On that note, some will respond to this by saying that the caps should not be raised because they are now 252 and don't want to have to work the treadmill again. That's not a good enough reason to simply dismiss the idea, IMO. Think about what this game would be like had the level cap never progressed beyond 50.

Secondly, is it fair to continue to penalize pure melees in tradeskills? Now that we know exact details about the stats involved in tradeskilling and how skill-ups work, I think this is something that really needs to be reviewed. As we know, all tradeskills use Int and Wis to help determine skill-up rates. This fits fine into the role of a caster class or a priest class or even hybrid classes since they must naturally work to increase those stats as they progress. Where does that leave the pure melees though? Since neither is part of their core base of stats they use in advancing their character, they are at a disadvantage. Thus, if a pure melee wants to obtain a high-end rank in tradeskills or complete complex and intensive quests such as the Aid Grimel quest, they either have to accept this disadvantage of advancing slower or obtain a completely set of different gear to use just for tradeskilling. This hardly seems balancing, especially since one could argue that Wisdom was only added to the equation as a means of balancing priests with casters with respect to this aspect of the game.

Oh and I would hardly call secondary stats of Str and Dex for Smithing and Fletching, respectively, balancing either.

Lastly, do the devs have any plans to allow for multiples combines with a single click? I for one would very much like to see a few options given to the player for this. For instance, Instead of just a single "Combine" button, how about buttons for 1, 5, 10 or 20 combines at a time. Adding messages to the effect of "You were successful in 10 of 10 combines" or "You were successful in 17 of 20 combines" would go a long way to reducing the monotony of clicking that is present today. There are many ways they could even add skill-up messages in this as well.

Obviously, much work would need to go into that last one but if Sony is truly serious about supporting EQ in the future amongst all the new MMORPS, they'll need to consider something like this.

Anyway, those are some thoughts. Kinda long but I wanted to be thorough. I'd like to get input to see if others feel this way as well or if I'm just crazy.

Thanks.

[Furyrpied]

As for the skill cap,

For those who have slaved (and killed their wrists) to get into the 1750 club, raising of the skill cap would be murder. Granted I agree with your logic on the addition of new trade skill recipies (most in the 300+ range) is frustrating.

On the Multi-combine button,

No thank you. Honestly, how easy do you want trade skills to be? The new UI has made skill up progression 100x better than befor, but a muliple combine button? No thanks...

As for melee and trade skills,

Sorry, I'm a druid and wisdom is my friend! I wonder if you are a pure melee class, if the devs could force your main stat to be STR maybe?

[Myrron]

If the cap was ever raised, I'd like to see it raised in one (of the seven main trades) only. I think people would go crazy if suddenly all the 1750 people had, for example, 700 more skillups facing them.

I would not mind seeing a single trade cap being allowed to reach 300 or 350, or I would not mind seeing something like jewelcraft mastery be implemented for all classes/races. If the cap was raised, I'd also like to see a few 400+ trivial items as well, just for kicks. But that's just me.

--Myrron

[Velorek]

The comment about "killing their wrists"...doesn't that really validate the idea behind options for stackable combines? It's not like we're talking about changing the formula to make skilling up easier or requiring less combines even. But if the mechanics are coded such that players must do 200, 300, or even 400 or more combines for a single skill-up, not to mention the hundreds more that are typically involved in sub-combines, then why not give more options to streamline that process. As great as the new interface is, a player must still go through hundreds or even thousands of clicks in a single play session so from that perspective, it's still "murder on the wrists". Reducing that part of the equation doesn't necessarily mean that tradeskilling becomes easy. It just makes it a little easier on the person at the keyboard.

Myrron, you bring up some interesting ideas. Expanding the cap in one skill would allow players to specialize again, bringing back some of the old magic that was lost when PoP and the Advanced Tanaan Mastery AA were introduced. On the other hand, one could argue that the addition of that AA provided a tremdous boost to the tradeskill aspect of the game so implementing a single increase would basically be taking a step backward.

Hmm, definitely an interesting idea though.

[Silverfish]

Impressions

Velorek wrote:

"We've seen the level cap increased from 50 to 60 and then again to 65. We've seen the addition of the AA system, the Leadership system and tons of new gear and loot that completely overshadow anything before it. But in that same timeframe, the cap was, is and always has been stuck at 252. "

I was under the impression that the value of a given trade skill was an 8 bit number, so values from 0-255 were the only ones allowed. Since 253, 254 and 255 are special codes (can't learn this skill, can't learn this skill at this level and can't learn until a point is spent at a trainer) that leaves 0-252 for values. Cap at 250 and modified to 252 is it for the way it's written. Although I agree that raising the caps would be nice, be aware that you're asking for significant reprogramming. Any developers want to toss in a few words about this? If it turns out not to be a lot of work, I agree with the suggestions that allowing only one skill over 250 would be a good first step. It allows for progress, but also for future expansions (like New Tanaan Crafting Mastery allowed growth), and we won't lose half of the 1750 club to suicide.

Velorek further wrote:

"Thus, if a pure melee wants to obtain a high-end rank in tradeskills or complete complex and intensive quests such as the Aid Grimel quest, they either have to accept this disadvantage of advancing slower or obtain a completely set of different gear to use just for tradeskilling. This hardly seems balancing, especially since one could argue that Wisdom was only added to the equation as a means of balancing priests with casters with respect to this aspect of the game.

Oh and I would hardly call secondary stats of Str and Dex for Smithing and Fletching, respectively, balancing either. "

I agree entirely about it being unfair to pure melee characters, but I disagree that secondary stats aren't balancing. If the secondary stats idea was expanded so that all skills had a secondary stat, it would go a long way toward allowing those with lower wisdom/intelligence to partake at similar rates. Heck, I'm a cleric and I still have a tradeskill suit (it's down to two pieces, but I do have one and it used to be six pieces).

My thoughts that seem to make sense are:

Baking: stamina
Brewing: dexerity
Fletching: dexterity
Jewelcrafting: agility
Pottery: stamina (just kidding; agility makes more sense)
Smithing: strength
Tailoring: insanity (OK, dexterity)

These are a start, if they aren't perfect.

Velorek also wrote:

" I for one would very much like to see a few options given to the player for this. For instance, Instead of just a single "Combine" button, how about buttons for 1, 5, 10 or 20 combines at a time."

While I can see the hesitation to put in such a feature due to programming load or possible abuse, I don't think having a "five combines" button would invite abuse, and it would sure lighten the load on the wrists. As to the difficulty coding it, again I call for developers to tell me if I'm giving them a year's work for it.

Silverfish

[Cantatus]

I personally would like for them to raise the skill cap. One of the reasons I really got burned out on EQ was b/c I had done all the tradeskills and was left purely to level grind.

However, if they were to add a new tradeskill cap, I'd like for them to take the tradeskill system in a new direction. Let people pick only one tradeskill to go over 250, but require many of the recipes over 250 to require items from several different tradeskills so you have to work with other tradeskillers. I'd also make it so race and class affect what you can make, and a skill tree that would let you specialize in certain recipe types would be cool. For instance, a Smith could specialize in Plate Making.

I'd also want the additional skills to fix some of the existing problems with tradeskills like mudflation and many tradeskill items being useless.

[Myrron]

I like that Cantatus. I've also thought another Solstice earring type of quest should be introduced...with only cultural items as "gifts." That could also spread the wealth out among various tradeskillers. Who knows, maybe the half elves would finally be able to contribute a small something.

--Myrron

[Velorek]

I was under the impression that the value of a given trade skill was an 8 bit number, so values from 0-255 were the only ones allowed.

I too once thought this but if this is true, then what did they do to allow players to boost stats up to 305 (or even higher in some cases) by way of AAs?

I agree entirely about it being unfair to pure melee characters, but I disagree that secondary stats aren't balancing. If the secondary stats idea was expanded so that all skills had a secondary stat, it would go a long way toward allowing those with lower wisdom/intelligence to partake at similar rates.

I think you're on to something here. I don't think it's logical to suddenly say that Strength functions the same as Wisdom or Intelligence with regards to tradeskills but adding secondary stats would most definitely help. In conjunction with that, perhaps Sony should even revisit the formula itself to allow the secondary stat to play a bigger role than what it does today. I think it's more balancing for everyone that way anyway.

And I think your suggestions for secondary skills for each tradeskill is right on target.

While I can see the hesitation to put in such a feature due to programming load or possible abuse, I don't think having a "five combines" button would invite abuse, and it would sure lighten the load on the wrists.

Outside of the coding ramifications, I definitely don't think that adding an option for 5 combines at once would be unbalancing. Heck, I would be happy with options for 1, 3 and 5 combines for that matter. Just give the players something that helps alleviate the sheer monotony of it all. The tradeskill interface was a huge step in the right direction. I just don't think it should be seen as the finished product. It has potential to be so much more.

Anyway, great input.

[Astroshak]

When I took programming classes in High School and college, one thing that I was taught was that, for one reason or another, bytes always began at an even memory location. Since 0-255 is a byte (8 bit number) it is, unless Verant went out of its way to put the bytes right next to one another (to reduce memory requirements?), theoretically possible that Sony could do for tradeskills what it did for stats. However, they'd have to change the info for all skills, not just tradeskills (in the way the skill values are read), and the three restricted byte values make this a somewhat bigger project (one would think, without knowing how many or how few times those bytes are referenced) than might be apparent.

Speculative? Sure. But, in layman's terms, perhaps its possible but more work than Sony wishes to do at this time.

[Pootle]

Hmm cant see a quote button.
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Secondly, is it fair to continue to penalize pure melees in tradeskills?
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Seriously, whats up with this....??? This is a role playing game, Wisdom and Intelligence are whats needed to become an Artisan.

DO you really think any stat should be made into the tradeskill skill check???
If a warrior wants to become a tailor, you really cant think that his strenght would aid him in sewing????

Yes melee are penalised somewhat, but you dont hear Pure Casters saying they cant carry much stuff and want their Inteligence skill to equate to there carriable weight.

Or a Druids wisdom to be the skill his melee damage is worked out from.

Every class has its strenghts and weeknesses...... go buy some wis gear.
If everyone could do everything at the same level, the game would be boring.

[Velorek]

In that case, explain how Wisdom affects your ability to increase your expertise in a skill, from that same role-playing perspective?

It doesn't. It's a game mechanic that was implemented to help balance the equation. It works, but it's quite a stretch, IMO.

And on that same note, why shouldn't Dexterity be involved with Pottery or Tailoring? Or Stamina with Brewing? I can make the same leaps with those as secondary stats that you can with Wisdom. Think about it.

The bottom line is that pure melees are at a disadvantage when it comes to tradeskilling whether you want to believe it or not. The difference, as we now know, is only a few percent but when 5% is the max for anyone, a few percent is quite a bit of disparity. Since Wisdom and Intelligence are not typically included on pure melee items, it's a little unfair to those 3 classes. Thus, the question.

As for pure casters with low Strength, I know many, many, many Casters with an exceptionally high Strength. That's because Strength is found on almost every item out there beyond a certain level of content, regardless of which class can use it. The same cannot be said for Wisdom and Intelligence on pure melee only gear.

It's not completely imbalancing but it would be nice to be able to invest my money into tradeskills like everyone else can versus having to invest some of it into tradeskill gear.

Edit: Corrected a typo and spelling mistake.

[Furyrpied]

The comment about "killing their wrists"...doesn't that really validate the idea behind options for stackable combines? It's not like we're talking about changing the formula to make skilling up easier or requiring less combines even

Yes and no...

Trade skills are supposed to be hard, frustrating at times, and tedious at more times. To make a "combine 20" button would make skilling up easier, trivializing trade skills more than they already are for the same reason that you say would make it great, by requiring less cobines. When everyone can click once for twenty and skill up that much faster, being a GM trade skiller will not be worth the time or effort.

Granted I think the risk vs. reward (or with trade skills it should be timesink vs. reward) for tradeskills is so out of ballance it's not funny, but take brewing for example. Lets say it takes on average 10,000 combines to GM it (not real numbers just using it for the sake of using it :P) it would only take 500 combines.

I'm sorry, but I can not support a 'combine 20' button.

Now to take one, and only one tradeskill over 250? Sign me up! An excellent idea, and i wonder if it could be implimented.

[Velorek]

Point well taken Fury. That's why I mentioned in one of my replies that instead of adding combines for 5, 10 and 20, make it 1, 3 and 5 instead. After more consideration, I can see where 20 would create a fairly steep acceleration rate so that's probably not a good idea. But I don't believe having options for 3 or even 5 combines at a time would suddenly trivialize tradeskills.

I agree that tradeskilling should be hard but that shouldn't necessarily mean it's hard because it requires alot of clicking. You still need the supplies, you still need the sub-combines, you still need the plat, you still need the same number of total combines, etc. The only aspect that would change would be the number of physical clicks involved to get there. It's simply taking the next step beyond the new tradeskill interface.

I do see where a suggestion like this probably wouldn't sit well with the folks who have already GMed their tradeskills and did it the "hard" way. It could be seen as trivializing their own accomplishments. For me personally though, I don't see it that way. In fact, I use my own accomplishments to determine that something like this would be a good thing. Admittedly, I am not a 1750 tradeskiller but I am a GM Brewer (who did so long before the interface was even a thought) and have my other 6 skills at 215 or higher (still working on the Aid Grimel quest...bleh) so I think I can speak with at least some degree of authority.

[Aeryl]

A solution for stackable combines would be to have each press of the combine button count as one "attempt." That way if you are trying to make things to sell, you can make them in bulk. If you are trying to make things to skill up, you can do them individually to give yourself more chances to skill up. There would have to be multiple combine buttons though, or some kind of radio button/toggle.

Since I'm a melee, I'll speak to the disadvantage. Requiring a number of different stats for different things is even worse than leaving some of them on WIS now. They should just add STR as a 3rd alternative to WIS and INT and implement it the same way as the WIS addition was implemented so long ago. If STR is higher than the other two, it's the one used for all skills to determine your skill-up chance. STR is the most common stat for any melee to raise easily, like WIS or INT for casters.

As for stats going above 255, I don't think that's exactly the same as the skills. Stats are just a value, kind of like the amount of plat in your bank which obviously isn't limited to 255. The difference lies in the fact that each tradeskill has it's own programmed "system" in the game, so it needs those markers like Silverfish explained. I'm not exactly sure how they did it, so that's the best I can come up with.

[Velorek]

Just for fun, I browsed through the 1750 thread to see which classes were typically the hardcore tradeskillers. There are a total 151 players listed as being a part of the 1750 club. Here is the breakdown by class:

Druids - 36
Enchanters - 24
Wizards - 19
Clerics - 13
Magicians - 13
Shaman - 13
Paladins - 8
Warriors - 6
Rangers - 5
Necromancers - 4
Monks - 2
Rogues - 2
Bards - 1
Beastlords - 1
Shadowknights - 1
Berserkers - 0

Also, 2 were listed without giving their class.

Now obviously, there a variety of reasons why these numbers show what they do. I don't think anyone is shocked at seeing Druids, Chanters and Wizards topping the list, given the capabilities and utility that those classes have. But by the same token, I also don't find it shocking to see Monks and Rogues near the bottom of the list, given their shortcomings and disadvantages with regards to tradeskilling (among other things). I am a little suprised to see Warriors as high up in the list as they are but even then, they are still in the middle of the pack. And Berserkers are a pure melee too but given the newness of that class, I think it's understandable why there are no 1750 Zerkers out there.

Again, I just found some of those numbers interesting.