skillup formula

[tomojo]

Everyone seems to be assuming that the skillup difficulty (V) is tradeskill based and not recipe based...

I'm almost positive that, at least a while ago, poison vials (regular/lined/sealed) had a HUGELY faster skillup rate than casserole dishes for pottery...

My potter wasted lots of time and money doing stacks of casserole dishes on at least 2 different days when he ran out of skins to do poison vails.. Vials were skilling up several times per stack where casserole dishes was in the 1 in 30 or higher range (i.e. around 4 times faster for vials).

If the skillup difficulty is recipe based, what does that do to everyones calculetions?

Nothing....

You are seeing the results of FAILED attempts.
Poison vials are skill 148, lined are 168 and sealed are 188.
Casserole dishes are skill 199.

Since your skill appears to be less than 148 (you said were doing 'poison vials'), you will use the success formula most of the time on poison vials since you will succede in the creation of the item most of the time.

When you attempt the casserole dish, you will almost always fail to create the item, which means your skillup results will follow the failed formula being discussed fairly closely.

Thus, you should be seeing approximately 2 times the skillups/stack doing the poison vials as compared to doing the casserole dishes. If you actually saw 4 times (which I doubt), that is probably just an anomaly in the RNG.

There is a completely separate formula that determines the chance of success/failure on creation of an object. That is what you are thinking affects the skillups, and while it does, it doesn't affect the formulas being discussed here.

This is exactly why you should only do the items that are closest to your current skill level whenever possible.

[Sindailia]

I just finished skilling up my fletching from 0 to 162 for my 7th shawl. I was constantly checking my skillup rate against the calculator and never got as many skillups on fletching as you would if it was a 4. So I think its a 5 but since thats not possible, Ill guess its a 4 and I had a run of bad luck.

[Tineras]

Nothing....
You are seeing the results of FAILED attempts.
Poison vials are skill 148, lined are 168 and sealed are 188.
Casserole dishes are skill 199.

I used the term poison vials generically...
It's been a long time but it was probably sealed poison vials I was working on with a skill somwhere in the 170s or even as high as 180s.

But I do believe there were a lot more failures for the dishes (another thing that seems odd for something that was only roughly 11 points higher trivial).

[Soriano]

The value of Y

MY theory of the value of Y...

Y is not determined by which skill...

Y is determined by your skill...

Y = 2 if skill (0-100)
Y = 3 if skill (101-150)
Y = 4 if skill (151-200)
Y = 2 if skill (201-250)

it would explain why you skill up much faster at lower levels of skill and the natural slowing as skill rises...

the actual value of Y in relation to the formula has a pretty minimal effect...it also only effect the first succession in the formula...leaving us with essentially a 5% chance of gaining a skillup after passing test one post 190 skill which seems to be the trend of all 7 tradeskills...

the range values mybe slightly off but are my best guesses...

it also addresses how they were able to in a patch double skill up rate post 200 skill...

it was the way I understood the original formula to work...

This is an unconfirmed theory...but only way I see how they could double the skill up rate post 200 skill...I use the term double loosely as I assume they did in the patch message...

The theory listed in a post above made me think a bit but changing 190 to 195 would have a reverse effect...

if in the patch message on double the chance post 200 skill, they truely meant double then the example below would be as close to actually doubling the chance for skill up...

but it could in theory work like this supposing the first check succeeded...

if skill > 200 then
x = 180
else
x = 190
end

if random(200)>= min(x,skill) then
skill up!!!
else
no skill up
end

this would take a 5% chance for skill up and double it to a 10% chance...

but at a random(200)>180 in the formula skill ups would probably come much faster than my experience has been...so I do not think this theory works, thus fueling my theory on the value of Y...

taking the Y value from 4 - 2 essentially doubles the chance for success on the first test...

post 200 I did not experience skill ups per 10 combines and if changing the min value of the second calculation is how they double the chance for skill ups I am the unluckiest person on earth...

being a grandmaster in every skill I did not notice any one skill to be any easier than the other to raise other than the issues: number of subcombines, gathering components, and number of non-trivial receipes available by skill...

[Ngreth Thergn]

Except that is not what the dev that actually looked at the code said.

and the diferences are small for the numbers we are working with... OTHER skills use the same skillup order and have different difficulty numbers.

[Soriano]

In truth...

All we have is what someone who talked to a dev says the developer recalled...by admission the developer only studied the code and was not the original programmer...also I do not recall him ever stating what caused the value of Y to vary but just that the value of Y was either 2,3,4 and not always the same....

There was a thread about a year back where someone said the value of Y changed based on what type of skill, not meaning tailoring vs brewing but tradeskill vs melee vs spell casting discipline...it was an interesting read...I had the thread bookmarked but the site has either removed the thread or the site is gone as my link no longer works or I would post it...

My theory could very well be wrong...but until I see the actual code or some one gives me a explainable way to double your chances post 200 for skill ups. The original post in this thread list a formula that does not really show how a alteration to the code could double your chances for skill up post 200 skill...other than the example I provided which my experience just does not support that theory...and my experience does not support that Smithing is harder to raise skill in than brewing...other than brewing you can vendor buy all your ingredients and smithing you can not...and smithing takes subcombines and brewing does not...but both averaged about the same number of combines per skill up...post 200.


Also I have not heard a developer confirm that the formula posted is 100%...

But I did hear Tanker say he loves to watch us try and figure it out...lol

[Philio]

Another way to double skillups?

Hello all,

I was wondering if anyone can check to see if any new 200+ trivial recipes were entered around the time that the "doubling skill-up rate past 200" was given. This would allow for faster skillups since you would be operating near trivial more often than before, without the formulas having to be adjusted, correct?

Thanx,

Philio

[Ngreth Thergn]

nah, there were some 350 trivial recipies (we did not know it at the time, but there were) before they implemented that.

[samhainOR]

another log on the fire

so i am thinking that somewhere there is stored information regarding the number of times you have attempted a recipie. GoD conversions getting better the more often you do them is my basis of this assumption.

in the same vein, (i may be wayyy off here) i have noticed when doing tinkered elemetal cams that the sucess rate seems to be going up ( starting from 212 when i started cams to 23something now). I was led to belive that all recipies > 190 are equal or am i misreadig this?

--vatra noxpyr

[Sylphan]

Soriano, many of us suspect that the second check used to use 195, and it was changed to 190. The devs would claim that change 'doubled the skillup rate past 200'.

Philio, there were a few recipes that had their trivials raised at that time. They had been trivial around 210 (roughly), and were raised to 250 to 300ish. That helped a little by giving more options. But nobody noticed any new recipes.

samhainOR, all recipes have roughly the same chance of skillup (on a success) when your skill is 190 or higher. They also have roughly the same chance of skillup (on a failure) when your skill is 190 or higher. But some recipes (the 350 trivial ones) will fail more often, and thus will not be as good for skilling up.

[Ngreth Thergn]

so i am thinking that somewhere there is stored information regarding the number of times you have attempted a recipie. GoD conversions getting better the more often you do them is my basis of this assumption.

The GoD refines are a special case. There is an extra character flag added for that. There is not a record of any other combine you make in the game, just those GoD combines.

[Soriano]

Soriano, many of us suspect that the second check used to use 195, and it was changed to 190. The devs would claim that change 'doubled the skillup rate past 200'.

Well that does add a new piece to this and would fit better with all the other information compiled...

This would lead me to believe the thread I read some year ago, that the value of Y is set by type of skill...

Tradeskills (all 7 of them) Y = 3 since we were told tailoring is 3 and I think all tradeskills have the same value to Y

Spells (Evocation, Conjuration, ect) Y = 2

Melee skills (2 hand slash, 1 hand slash, ect) Y = 4

As for language skill ups I would suspect 2.
unsure about offense defense ect and so was the person that posted back then but since they are use so frequently I would suspect 4 as well for them...

but I would imagine the same formula is used for each skill outside of trades to determine skill ups...

but nothing in my experience leads me to believe that Brewing has any different value for Y than smithing or tailoring...

is brewing easier to raise skill in, yes from the simple fact is you can vendor buy all your ingredients and there are ZERO trivial subcombines involved...

I had a bad run of about 120 combines of hero minotaurs brew at 237 skill...had a similar issue with a 242 tailoring combine at a skill of 231, 180 combines to get ONE skill improve...but on a whole across the 7 tradeskills I generally got 1 or 2 skillups per 20 combines...(and usually only the one)

Also will add I generally had atleast one long no skill up streak in each skill but none other than two mention did I go over 60 combines without a single skill up...

[tairne]

Post these results in The FAQ?

There hasn't been much movement in this thread for a while. why not post what there is in the FAQ, like the success formulas were.

[Nolrog]

Here's how we're told skillups are calculated.

Each tradeskill has a difficulty Y: 2, 3, or 4.
Tailoring is 3
Smithing is probably 4
Pottery used to be 2, now it's probably 4
Jewelcraft is probably 2
Fletching
Baking
Brewing is probably 2
Tinkering
Alchemy
Poisonmaking

For tradeskills with an alternate stat set S = max(int,wis,alt)
For tradeskills with no alternate stat set S = max(int,wis)-15

If the combine failed set F=2
If the combine succeeded set F=1

Set N=(S*10)/(Y*F)

If ran(1000) < N then proceed to the second check

Second check: If ran(200) >= min(190, skill) then skillup!

I'm pretty sure there is a thrid check, that superceeds the other two.

Third check:

If character=Nolrog then do;
if F=1 then F=2;
N=N/100;
End;

[Xanafeldier]

Call me Kooky...

I've always tried to stay as close as possible to the trvial chart, on all skills. The only exception would be when I just HAD to have a certain item and threw components at it until it succeeded, sometimes netting a skillup. /shrug

I passed by quite a few tinkerers slogging along doing zillions of the same geerloks. Sticking stubbornly to the "hard way" paid off and I see the equation finally proves it. Oh, yeah, and it made me rich instead of broke and begging for drops.

I know this thread is about skillups but I wanted to ask...
Has anyone but me noticed some sort of a bonus to success rate after learning a recipe?
Velious tailoring, though trivial at 335, seems to be working that way for me now. So much so that I almost wish for failures. Can I have 8 more bank slots please?