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  • #46
    I also remember their being a patch message/message board post about the skillup rate being doubled for post-200 skills. If that is true, then it is not taken into account in this formula (the dev may have left it out, or it may be buried elsewhere in the spaghetti code, or it may just not exist). When I have more spare time, I'll dig around and see if I can find it.

    -Baradur

    EDIT: Finally, here it is. From the March 6, 2001 patch message (roughly 6 months after the tradeskill cap was raised to 250):
    "- Doubled the chance to gain skill points in skills that are above 200."

    Since this was specifically mentioned as a *doubling* of a skillup chance, and only post-200, it has to be something more than the 190-cutoff. Which would also explain the "hell levels" in the high 180s and 190s that are so often talked about. From 190-200 your skillup chace would bottom out (at 5% or less depending on stats and skill difficulty), and then after 200 it would go back up to 10% (where it was at 180).

    Incidentally, it should be quite possible to differentiate between easy, medium, and hard tradeskills by skilling up to 100 on a mule with 215 int/wis (or 200 for a skill with an alternate stat) (200 gives the largest percentage gaps for skillups between each different difficulty level). Yes, testing the alternate stat property should be possible, too, but it would be much harder and take many more samples. With the difficulty test, you only need enough data to differentiate between 100% (50%), 67% (33%), and 50% (25%) skillup rates (parenthetical values are on fails), whereas, for a hard skill, the -15 int/wis would only cut your skillup chance by 4%, and that's going to take a *lot* more tests to see with any real certainty.

    Skilling to 100 on a single mule with 215 int/wis (or 200 int/wis/dex/str, as appropriate) and recording the number of succeses and number of fails at each level to get a skillup should be enough data to peg the skill's difficulty with reasonable certainty, after some analysis of the data. I'll try to do such tests myself sometime soon, but my raid schedule is pretty hectic these days, so it may take a while.
    Last edited by Baradur; 04-21-2004, 04:09 AM.

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    • #47
      well... it is SORTA handled... sorta... the after 190 flatening of the curve would have made it much easier post 200 than if that flatening was not there... but yeah, it may be missing in the "formula"
      Ngreth Thergn

      Ngreth nice Ogre. Ngreth not eat you. Well.... Ngreth not eat you if you still wiggle!
      Grandmaster Smith 250
      Master Tailor 200
      Ogres not dumb - we not lose entire city to froggies

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      • #48
        :-/

        If the flattening was not there then you could never skill up above 200 unless I am missing something.

        ;-)

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        • #49
          Originally posted by Sylphan
          Here's how we're told skillups are calculated.

          Each tradeskill has a difficulty Y: 2, 3, or 4.
          Tailoring is 3
          Smithing is probably 4
          Pottery used to be 2, now it's probably 4
          Jewelcraft is probably 2
          Fletching
          Baking
          Brewing is probably 2
          Tinkering
          Alchemy
          Poisonmaking
          Anyone fleshed this list out yet. Which are 2,3 and 4?

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          • #50
            I think we figured out that baking was *probably* a 3 ... The post is here somewhere ....

            Ah .. on this thread -> http://mboards.eqtraders.com/eq/showthread.php?t=15668
            Ariaya, Ranger of Karana
            Terris Thule Server
            Master Potter, Master Baker, Master Fletcher, Master Brewer

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            • #51
              Take this for what you will. Seems conclusive to me though.

              Smithing 197: Started with 280 INT (81 STR), trivial of recipe 222. According to formulae posted and assuming Smithing has a Y=4 it should have taken me ~89 combines to get the last 3 skillups:
              197-198: 30
              198-199: 30
              199-200: 29

              It actually took me 1, 23, and 19 combines to get the 3 remaining skill-ups. If I redo the formula with a Smithing Y=3, those numbers (throwing out the 1) are more in-line. So my guess? ***SMITHING Y=3*** Granted 3 skill-ups isn't a whole lot of testing, but that's all I had to work with.

              Also did Tinkering. Started 182. Finished 188. Took 10, 6, 1, 12, 6, 5. That puts ***Tinkering at Y=2***. Same stats as above, only no Tertiary stat benefit for Tinkering.

              I'm leaving Tinkering at Y=2 in my spreadsheet, and will have some more data as soon as I get money and drops to try some more combines. It'll be a cold day in 'ell before I use Tanaan to up Smithing, so no more tests on it from me.

              What are you folks finding?



              See the skeletons in my closet!

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              • #52
                Hello Kraggie,
                sorry, I do not want to say you are wrong, but well, at least I can say that your sample size is WAY too small.

                43 combines in smithing for a post 190-skill? From my skilling I'd predicted one skillup if you are lucky.

                40 combines for tinkering? Okay, granted that I am past the 200 now, but heck, runs of 40 combines without a single skillup are not unlikely. I really wonder how you managed to get 6.

                Since the RNG does a lot of work here, my first guess would be that several runs of 100 or 150 skillups are needed to get a reliable value for the tradeskill difficulty.
                Knowing if you got your skillup from a success or a failure would help to narrow that difficulty down, too.

                But hey, I wish I had your skillup rates

                Cheers,
                Nitpaac

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                • #53
                  I was hoping Tanker would get us the list But he may be required to keep this as a "secret"
                  Ngreth Thergn

                  Ngreth nice Ogre. Ngreth not eat you. Well.... Ngreth not eat you if you still wiggle!
                  Grandmaster Smith 250
                  Master Tailor 200
                  Ogres not dumb - we not lose entire city to froggies

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Not so much "required" to keep it a secret, but a couple of things.

                    1. Obviously these numbers can change (as they have already). Any numbers I'd give out, I'd want to make sure people understood they were only "at the time of posting". If you guys figure them out, and they then change, then it's just "oh, they didn't get it right". Of course, this applies to the formulae I have given out as well, but don't get antsy that I'll change it soon. I don't forsee that happening right now.

                    2. Watching you all figure this out (and I think you will, given enough effort) is fun. I only hope figuring it out is just as much fun. Please, if you don't find it so, let the ones who do continue the effort.

                    3. Really, Absor is the man when it comes to tradeskills. I did the UI, and I've stuck around mainly because I met a few of you at FF, there's some fairly creative conversations, and *cough*sometimes*cough* you all find code issues faster than we do. But it really is Absor's ballgame, so I'll let him make any announcements about Y values, if he decides to. Maybe he should have a contest where the winner picks a TS, and he gives out the Y value for that one? Whatever, you'll have to ask him.

                    *sidles back to the programmer cave from which he spawned*

                    Tanker

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                    • #55
                      WTB Absor, TL him here for us Tanker so we can take a swings at.... I mean pick his brain =)
                      Lickity

                      *GasP* 300 is my new target!!
                      "Hoping the grass is once again greener on SOE's side of the fence."

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Nitpaac
                        at least I can say that your sample size is WAY too small.
                        Knowing if you got your skillup from a success or a failure would help to narrow that difficulty down, too.
                        Yeah I feel the same way Nitpaac. I knew before I posted that my sample size was too small. I just don't have the time to create an alt and start from scratch. Besides, pre 50 or 100 skillups come like mad, so it doesn't do much for testing. But it's at least data to look at. I made a pretty extensive spreadsheet showing my % to succeed/fail and subsequent chances to gain skillup based on those numbes. I was just saying that with my low sample the numbers fit those Y values. More testing will either prove or disprove what I've found, but I wanted to contribute.

                        Unfortunately I didn't record whether I got the skillup on success or failure, just the numbers of successes/failures for each given skillup. I'd wager money that I only got one skillup on failure though.
                        The 3 skillups for Smithing: 198, 1 combine, 1 success
                        199, 23 combines 20 success
                        200, 19 combines, 17 success

                        6 skillups for Tinkering: 183, 10 combines, 6 success
                        184, 6 combines, 5 success
                        185, 1 combine, 0 success (skillup on failure?! /faint)
                        186, 12 combines, 10 success
                        187, 6 combines, 5 success
                        188, 5 combines, 5 success

                        Hey Tanker, keep coming around I was just commenting to some other players about the attention the tradeskill community got from the Dev team.



                        See the skeletons in my closet!

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                        • #57
                          NP Tanker Just poking at you

                          Thanks for hanging around
                          Ngreth Thergn

                          Ngreth nice Ogre. Ngreth not eat you. Well.... Ngreth not eat you if you still wiggle!
                          Grandmaster Smith 250
                          Master Tailor 200
                          Ogres not dumb - we not lose entire city to froggies

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Since this was specifically mentioned as a *doubling* of a skillup chance, and only post-200, it has to be something more than the 190-cutoff. Which would also explain the "hell levels" in the high 180s and 190s that are so often talked about. From 190-200 your skillup chace would bottom out (at 5% or less depending on stats and skill difficulty), and then after 200 it would go back up to 10% (where it was at 180).
                            Set the "magic cut off" to 195 instead of 190. The end effect would be "skillup chances past 200 would double", plus some other minor effects. . . Namely, skillup chances from 190 to 200 would also go up.

                            When they make a comment in patch notes, don't assume it precicely describes what is going on.
                            --
                            I am not the Yakatizma you are looking for.
                            No, really.

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                            • #59
                              I have just checked my results for fletching from zero to 200 with int 255.

                              If Y = 2 I would expect an average of 4.3 attepts per skill up
                              If Y = 3 I would expect an average of 5.5 attepts per skill up
                              If Y = 4 I would expect an average of 7.3 attepts per skill up

                              Actual result = 5.6 over 1120 combines.

                              The deveation from Y=3 is minimal.

                              This is obviously only one set of results, but the result is almost spot on.
                              I seriously doubt that Fletching's Y = 4 it could be 2 and I was unlucky, but I suspect Y = 3

                              HTH

                              I can post more data (and probably will in the fletching forum)

                              Jarak.

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                              • #60
                                Just a word of warning that with an INT of 255, you cannot prove that the difficulty Y equals 2. That's because if Y = 2, you will always pass the first test with an INT above 200, effectively meaning that the only part of influence is your actual skill for the second test. If Y is indeed 3 or 4, then you should be able to find it - which you seem to do (so the warning would in this case be a hollow one).

                                Kaysha Soulsinger
                                Member of the 1750 club since October 13th 2004
                                True strength is not a measure of the body, it's a measure of the soul

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