stuff we want learnable or autolearnable

[eniamn]

celestial solvent is from luclin. you are correct. also the normal opal steins are not pop needed.

the planar stein someone mentioned and justice fruit pies are the only pop combines in the new ui then?

can we get back to suggestions on what should be done. i keep updating the list. main complaint seems to be that we want more hehe.

[Daikoku Ashikaga]

Hero
's boar chops, anyof the hero sub commbines including those for the dessing were not learnable

Dai

[eniamn]

added note about party platter combines which included hero parts. the pop combines that aren't for a quest were already covered.

[mewkus]

If the problem with having everything learnable is server side storage issues, a simple solution would be to have all the recipies be temporarily learnable with all the flags stored in local memory still you log out. That way we would need to make something once, and until logging, it's learned.

[Maddoc-the-Wayfarer]

Server-side storage is not an issue, so you don't even need to worry about that Mewkus

-- Maddoc

[Zaephod]

Originally posted by Maddoc-the-Wayfarer
Server-side storage is not an issue, so you don't even need to worry about that Mewkus

-- Maddoc

Agreed. As per Tanker these are Flags in the DB. so the fields are already in the records (the part that takes up space) so turning them on or off doesn't change space issues. it DOES require server side patching from what i gather so we should try to be as complete as possible.

It would be really nice if we could supply this information is a format that was actually directly useful to whoever is doing the manual labor of siwtching these. basicly would it help if we handed you a set of sql statements? Do you want a list of Item Names, Item IDs, what? I'm sure we'd like to help ensure that everything gets flagged appropriately in a timely manner so we'd be willing to go the extra mile to be helpful

[Aethia]

Having done a similar project like this (flagging items in a database, client/server) it can be hard work and stuff can be missed.

But people keep asking (insisting?) that all items be CanLearn. Well I can think of one very good reason why the current approach works - macroers and exploits.

Now with the built in delay, that should prevent macroers. However, it doesn't prevent exploitation. I don't know that there is something that can be exploited, but seeing what happened with...

*The Casino
*Sheets of Metal
*CVTs (pricing issue)
*Tribute Master
*Phylacteries

just to name a few... I would rather SoE and the database team take it slowly and turn on the flags during updates. How many tradeskill items are there? How many potential exploits can there be? How easy is it to track down the exploits AFTER they are live? And how many people do they have to monitor and watch for these exploits?

Many of us here tradeskill for fun, but sometimes for profit. And exploits kill that market, as we saw with the pricing changes. Wouldn't it be better to take it slowly and monitor the situation, rather then turn everything on, just to have it turned off?

The outrage that would occur then would be 100x more then the current level. I'm at 215 in smithing and doing EVBs. Yes, it would be nice to have the UI for ease of my wrist. But if everything is flagged, then it because a matter of plat to get to 250. At least now, there are some minor obstacles (and yes, some broken roads fishing, alchemy).

I guess to me it makes sense for cultural not be be a CanLearn item, but that is just me. And yes, I can make cultural and would have to do it the old fashioned way. But up until last week, that's how I'd have to do it anyways.

So let's just see what happens, and hopefully there will be no way for exploits to happen with the new UI. But everytime you build a better mousetrap... they build a better mouse

[Zaephod]

I think in general the long time crow here has fairly reasonable expectations regarding what should and should not be flagged each way. We might be a little heavy on the CanLearn side but I doubt we'll be heavy on the AutoLearn side (personally I'd be perfectly content if nothing were auto-learned). I think that this comminuty is such that we're more than willing to help the Devs get this one right. This and the Tribute masters has the distinct possibilty of breakthing a bit of profit back into tradeskills at all levels without causing a tidal wave of new tradeskillers.

Farming is what will keep Joe Schmoe from doing more than low to mid 100s in most skills. AA's will keep the power skillers from going crazy as well.

Look at the LoY Dyes. The market right after went from 100plat each to 30 plat each overnight with tons of profit to be made. Last time I looked the market had stabilized itself in the mid 40s which is quite reasonable for them (both in profit for the seller and use for the buyer).

I think we WILL see an increase in the quantity of tradeskilled goods for a period of time but those that aren't "Real" tradeskillers are likely to go back to LDoN due to Tradeskills being too Boring for them. At that point the markets will stabilize... Until the next big thing of course

[kiztent]

Originally posted by Aethia
But people keep asking (insisting?) that all items be CanLearn. Well I can think of one very good reason why the current approach works - macroers and exploits.

Now with the built in delay, that should prevent macroers. However, it doesn't prevent exploitation. I don't know that there is something that can be exploited, but seeing what happened with...

the new interface doesn't make a **** bit of difference to macroers. THEY CAN ALREADY DO WHAT THE NEW INTERFACE ALLOWS THE REST OF US TO DO - and still can do it faster than the new UI. The new interface does *zero* to change their ability to macro.

And exploiters (who generally macro) don't give a **** either. All they care about is items that can be purchased all from merchants and sold for more than they cost. The new UI doesn't add any benefit to that since it doesn't list prices.

[Twistagain]

/AGREE Zaephod!

I, for one, would be PERFECTLY content with the new UI if everything was Canlearn and nothing was Autolearn. Even if things were changed in the future to make some Autolearn, I think this would be a reasonable, quick fix to most of the complaints people have about recipes not showing up.

As for exploiting...exactly what recipe(s) would be problematic if they were learnable??

[Suutar]

What I think would make sense:
nothing is autolearn unless it's something simple enough that having seen one of the end product, you could realistically make one given materials and tools. Tattered armor could fit, if it's just an animal skin with armholes. Assembling an arrow, given the head, shaft, fletching, and nock. More complicated stuff isn't autolearn, but _everything_ is canlearn (with the exception of stuff that combines in a quest container, maybe. Why store the information that I've learned how to combine 8 diseased rat livers?)

[edit - perhaps a good dividing line on what can be autolearn is trivial < 21... that is, if you can trivial it on training points, it's autolearn. Course, then tattered doesn't make it ]

And, if a dev has some copious free time, perhaps you could buy or otherwise acquire one of those recipe books, turn it in to someone, and thereby "learn" all the recipes it lists. Maybe even have recipes told to you by an NPC get learned, if they use a standard trade container (again, no need to have "8 diseased rat livers in quest_bag_04"

Of course, then you'd lose all the "fun" of taking an obscure recipe and figuring out what the heck weird items it's really talking about... unless (even more spare time needed here) you rig it so that "obscure" recipes are "remembered" but not "learned" til you get a combine. "remembered" would show any items the recipe wants _that you have on you_ as available (and identify them), but items you're missing wouldn't be identified (dummy icon? real icon but no name?). So you keep loading up your inventory with random stuff, check to see if any of it matches, and eventually bingo! Do the combine, get a success, and it's really learned.

[Centuri]

I can understand most quest recipies not being in the new UI. after all, you usually only need to click them once (or twice, or three times if your luck is terrible.) However, there is one that I would like to see in there.

Vial of Velium Vapors. Used for the 4th prayer shawl, also affectionately known as the "Thurgadin gate potion"

I usually make up 3 or 4 vials at a time and keep them in my bank ready for a final combine each time I use one. when I get down to my last one, I whip up a few more. This is a quest recipie that I use on a weekly basis.

It would be a great convenience to have this one in the new UI.

/hug the people who came up with this UI. It has already made my life easier on subcombines. For the Celestial Essence alone you have my thanks!

[KyrosKrane]

As of the last patch, at least, Arctic Wyvern Masks are learnable. I suspect (but haven't tested) that the rest of the Arctic Wyvern line is learnable.

Many kind thanks! =)

[Eileah]

This is not entirely true. I learned the Justice Fruit Pie recipe last night.

Funny, I did a run of JFP's and was not able to learn it.

250 Baker with Spoon.

Eileah

Ps. I would like ALL recipes marked CanLearn, I have yet to see a valid reason to not have them all tagged CanLearn. If every recipe was CanLearn I would be happy, even if none of them were AutoLearn.

I still cannot do TS because of my hands since so may recipes are not learnable yet, leaving out the petty crap about quests and storage space, this is PAINFUL to me and it doesn't need to be, let me learn a recipe the old way ONCE, then after that I want it saved so that I do not have to experience PAIN in order to do my beloved TS.

Edited to add the Ps.

[Draggar]

Hmm, a thought.

We don't want SoE to just give everything away.

What about this:

You know how we all have data files on our computers, for bazaar, settings etc.. make one ofr the new UI.

Now, say my chanter decides to start jewelcraft. Not a bad idea. She's a novice at it, so she won't know how to make everything.

That's a fair statement. So, she opens up her jeweler's bag, and available should be a list of basic items. Combines to be able to get her to 20 or 30.

Each skillup gives a chance of other similar items being added, but nothing to high.

So, we have a basic list with a chance of adding other similar items (if I'm making arrows for fletching, how will I learn how to make a bow etc..).

How can we add more?

Two ways (or more?).

1) We use 'expirement' which is current now. Use the old UI interface and when you succeed, it automaticly add it to the list of "know" (to you) recepies. (I think most of us here would go this route).

2) All these books on how to do this or how to do that. But the book, then add it to the old/ new UI and hit combine, the book's recepies are automaticly added (well, with the how to sew small sizes, it will add in all the small patchwork armor etc..). Trivial or not, if your skill is 1 and you but a planar pottery book, it will add them all (you'll just fail a lot).

Many other ways recepies would be added, possible ways could be quests, going to a TS trainer and learning them, possibly other players training you, similar to teaching others languages etc..

The new UI has made things very easy, but I think it would be unfair to add everything (so technicaly using this site is cheating?).