New anti-macroing combine delay?

[Cedir]

I haven't seen the combine issue myself, but the sell back delay (you actually get a message, it's not lag), and the unable to loot thing are *super* annoying.

These have to be fixed immediately.

[Arghargh]

I posted before saying I thought this was lag. I've changed my mind. Lag causes delay between clicking combine, and getting the result (item on cursor). This new delay is after you get the result. Clicking on the combine button does nothing. The click is completely ignored, and I had to click a second, and sometimes third time.

This was extremely obvious when I was breaking blocks and bricks down into pieces. The combine is very quick since you drop the 2 results of one combine straight back into the trade container. Celestial Essenses take more clicks, but i still had to wait just a moment before combine would work.

I can appreciate SOE's need to stop macro programs, but all this could do is slow them down. It does nothing to stop them.

[Thingamadoodle]

I've noticed this a lot at home since the last patch, and figured it was lag simply because my ping-time has been pretty cruddy since the last patch as well. So today, I brought my EQ discs into work (I know, I'm evil.) and tried around 60 celestial essence combines on the T3 line.

In Surefall Glade, with old-world graphics, with no race models turned on, with spell effects off and all other lag-reducing/performance-enhancing options set, and no other players in the zone, I noticed the exact same lag.

It seems like there is a forced two second delay in combines.

I agree that this is a sad attempt to stop macroing, since any macro-user worth his salt can probably figure out how to add a delay. But us honest tradeskillers with quick-clicky-fingers are forced to suffer even more on these trivial combines. (Such as the FOUR CEs per Coldain Velium Temper... *shakes gnomish fist in anger*)

[Zaniel]

The loot / no-cast bug is definitely due to looting out of range issues. If you loot a corpse at long range or a corpse that is significantly above or below you in the Z-axis you will bug yourself, it's easily reproduced.

The simple solution is to simply be right on tp of the corpse when you loot. I was having this problem continuously in Crystal Caverns. Once I realised what was happening it never showed up again.

In addition you don't need to camp to character selection to clear it. Simply type /loadskin and either pick your normal UI or the default if that's what you use. This clears the UI freeze and unlocks all your spells again.

[Celestya]

I have noticed this as well.
I have found that the delay is longer if I have one of the components in the bottom right space of the combine container.
If I put the components in any other spaces, the delay is noticeably less. Still there, but not nearly as long.

[vovinit]

Well it worked Player auctions and my supersales has run out of money on alot of servers so the macroers are really hurting now. I figure this along with several other things has made it impossible for them to make money now. A week ago they had around 8-9 million plat up for sale for my server ( cazic ) but now there's 0, none, nada, squat.

[Dunthor Warsmith]

Originally posted by Celestya
I have found that the delay is longer if I have one of the components in the bottom right space of the combine container.
If I put the components in any other spaces, the delay is noticeably less. Still there, but not nearly as long.

If that's true (and not just perception) that would be curious ... them adding the delay into loop through the slots or somesuch? Doesn't quite pan out as a theory, since the empty slots still have to be checked for their contents .... Maybe this wasn't directly a nerf to tradeskills, but instead an increase in lag time (for whatever reason) for item database requests?

Just random thoughts ....

[BamanLron]

After multiple patches this week its still there.

For those who cant reproduce or detect the delay normally try using a 'does not combine' recipe. It has to be otherwise valid, i.e. no stacks, nothing on the cursor, at least 2 ingredients (those all seem to be checked by the client). If you just sit there and click combine, you will see that the does not combine message comes back every two seconds, it can be slower due to lag, but never faster.

I don't mind the fact that there's a timer, its just too long for legitimate tradeskillers. For me personally, reducing the timer by half a second would probably be sufficient, for others it might not. I would think that cutting it down to 1 second should work for everyone.

While the timer doesn't stop bot's, it does slow them down. That makes it less attractive to them (i.e. can make less PP per hour) and gives SOE time to detect and adjust prices on the recipes they're using to make the money before they just flood the market again. Not a perfect solution but one I think SOE will stick with -- I just wish the timer were shorter.

Bam

[curyllic]

Yes, its definitely annoying. Its the code people are talking about to make combines go slower.
Try breaking down blocks of Velium into small pieces!
ANNOYING to have to wait 2 seconds for each break down of the velium for like 3 breakdowns. (

[Balkin]

I've made only maybe 300 combines total across various tradeskills since this thread was started, but I haven't seen any noticable delay. And after almost 4 years of tradeskilling, I can click up a storm! Most recently was baking trying to get a couple toons to 200 (one from 198 and the other from 191) Over 100 three item combines as fast as I could click. *shrug*

[Tudamorf]

I wish SoE would come right out and explain why they're tying our hands like this. I see three possibilities:

1. Just a_bug_823475. In which case everyone should /bug and /feedback it in the hopes that they might actually read it and fix it.
2. They are running some sort of anti-macroer debugging or logging code which is slowing down the combines. Hopefully, then, this measure is temporary.
3. They are introducing a delay to stop macroers -- in which case, it's a stupid solution. Macroers couldn't care less about a delay, because they're not at their computer and therefore don't have to suffer it. As long as the macroer can make the product as fast as possible, he's ahead in the market, whether the delay is 1 second or 1 minute. The delay punishes only the legitimate tradeskiller who is trying to do things the honest way. By keeping it in, they are encouraging more honest people to macro.

Any way you look at it, the delay only punishes the honest gamer and must be removed.

[vovinit]

Originally posted by Tudamorf [*]They are introducing a delay to stop macroers -- in which case, it's a stupid solution. Macroers couldn't care less about a delay, because they're not at their computer and therefore don't have to suffer it. As long as the macroer can make the product as fast as possible, he's ahead in the market, whether the delay is 1 second or 1 minute. The delay punishes only the legitimate tradeskiller who is trying to do things the honest way. By keeping it in, they are encouraging more honest people to macro.[/list]Any way you look at it, the delay only punishes the honest gamer and must be removed. [/B]

I couldn't disagree more. If a macroer can make 1 plat per combine. and he can do 5 combines a second he is making 5 plat a second. Now if he has to wait 2 seconds on a combine he is making 5 gold a second. 1/10 of what he was making. So instead of him making 100k of plat a day he would be making maybe 10k a day. and that's not even taking into consideration the delay on the vendor sellback which would slow him down even more. This may not stop macroers but it will slow them down to the point to where it's more trouble than it's worth.

It may not be a enjoyable thing but at the state we are in right now if sony doesn't do some drastic measures the EQ economy will be ruined beyond repair. Macroing has gotten way out of hand and they are doing their best to put a stop to it. If you are trying to make money doing tradeskills and the economy goes kaput then you are gonna be right back on this message board complaining about that.

[Tudamorf]

Originally posted by vovinit
If a macroer can make 1 plat per combine. and he can do 5 combines a second he is making 5 plat a second.

You're assuming that macros can work faster than a player, when the opposite is true. A conventional macro -- that just simulates mouse and keyboad movements and/or reads the screen and log files -- must be designed to work more slowly than a player because you have to anticipate bits of lag with a buffer.

The benefit of a coventional macro is not that it can do things so much faster than a skilled player, rather it's that it can do things in the absence of human input. So even though you're working a little slower, you're working 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, with no rest, and the results can add up fast while you sleep, work, and have a life.

Now, if someone is actually doing something very sophisticated like hacking the client and speaking directly to the EQ servers, he might be able to do things superhumanly fast because he is bypassing the client interface entirely. But that's certainly not the average person, and as far as I know (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) there is no easy to use tool out there for the masses that can do that.

[mentalcaz]

Well i think it is safe to say this has to do with the new upcomming changes

http://eqlive.station.sony.com/updat...ng_updates.jsp


Tradeskill Interface Upgrade



Tired of all the clicking and dragging needed just to make a type 1 wood arrow? We know that the current tradeskill interface is cumbersome, so the UI guys have come up with some new ideas.



Opening a tradeskill container will now open a new user interface. In the window you will find an area that has all recipes that are currently available to you. This includes recipes that are at your skill level as well as some above it. Clicking on a recipe will display what items are necessary for its completion. Clicking the "combine" button will extract those required items from the player's inventory, and perform the recipe combine, placing the results on the player's cursor. The new system is nice and neat, with no dragging and dropping unless you want to try a combine that is way out of your league, which uses the old style of combination.

[Kelaan]

Tudamorf, there are two types of programs out there that macroers use. There's the type you're talking about that people use to save their wrists from the click click click click of brewing or whatever. Then there's another commonly available program that will let someone do combines at super human speed. This is the sort of program the unscrupulous plat salesmen use to generate plat. It just sends the commands instead of doing mouse clicks at all. This is the sort of quick plat generating that the new selling delays were designed to bust up.

Previously the macroer would sell a stack of items by sending the "sell" command 20 times over incredibly fast (apparently they can't actually just send "sell stack", dunno why not). Now he has to wait a second between every sell command which will impact hugely on his profitability. Of course, Sony FINALLY getting around to removing the exploitable sellback prices will help as well, don't know why they didn't do that sooner.

I have no desire to post program names because they are for cheating/sploiting, not for valid gameplay, so I'll leave it at that.

Huntress Kelaan
Forest Stalker of Aurora Noctum