Frustrated with brewing

[Etadera]

I am really getting frustrated with tradeskilling. I chose brewing as the skill I want to GM in. Why is it that the higher you get in any given skill, the harder it gets? I mean, it doesn't make sense.

A friend of mine started microbrewing in his home. At first, it was rough learning the add 'this' ingredient and cook for 'that' long. then add 'that' ingredient and cook for 'this' long. But the more he (and I when I was there) did it, the easier it got. While I concede that it was still possible (and sometimes easy) to make a mistake and break a batch, as he made more and more alcohol, it would get better and better each time. Making refinements to the mixture to come up with a slightly (or radically) different flavor, etc.

Now here in this fantasy game (which I admit is just that), I got my (skills char) skill to 219. last night I did EIGHTY (80) combines of a 250+ recipie.

Out of a possible 320 returned product, I got 44. (thats 11 successes out of 80 combines) and ZERO skill up's.

That is ludicris. (sp?) If this were a real situation, and I figured out how many failures I had getting from 190-219, plus 69 failures last night, I would probably give it up as a lost cause.

Anyway. I'm just having a poopy day. Just thought I would share some tradeskill blues....
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I sent the following email to SoE, via their webpage for feedback. I sent this on the 12th of this month. I have received *no* response at all.

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Hello.
I realize that you all (as developers) have lots to do, and things to think
up. I also realize that some of the other tradeskills may seem like they
should have a higher priority.

With that said, I would like to bring to your attention some items that are
of concern to those that have chosen Brewing, as their trade skill.

Now, the following numbers are all somewhat conservative....

Pottery 125+ recipies
Baking 210+ recipies
Jewelcraft 250+ recipies
Tailoring 750+ recipies
Smithing 1500+ recipies
Brewing 150+ recipies

Now lets take a look at these numbers quickly. Pottery has the lowest
number of recipies, but that makes sense, because how many
bowls/plates/steins/idols, can you really have?

Whats next? Brewing with 150ish recipies. Of that, only about 13-15 of them are actually usable as a consumable. Oh, there are a lot of alcoholic
drinks, but who cares about them. (All they do is raise the utterly useless
skill of alcohol tolerance, that does absolutlely nothing.)

Now in those 13-15 drinks that brewers can make, there are what, 5 that have trivials above 200? and one of them requires you either also be a baker to make an item that trivs in the 70's, difficult or VERY expensive to obtain or foraged specific components, or an expensive component from pottery that trives somewhere above 100 AND is not returned on success or failure.

One of the items for that 250 mark is the Kaladim Constitutional. Why would you put an item out there with a 48-52% success rate?

And while I am on that note....Do you have any concept at all, of how
depressing it is to go through all the work of getting everything together,
and then clicking "Combine" on a EIGHT or NINE item combine, and then
failing roughly 50% of the time???? (nine item combine is the worthless
minotaur heros brew)

My next item in the complaint list is that we brewers have what...7 or 8
products that increase stats? The various +1 juices (trivs less than 30) is
a product that nobody wants to buy, or if they do, don't think it is worth 2
gold.
Grobb Liquisized meats require that I either be a baker, or know one willing to make a component for me. I don't *want* to be a baker. I don't want any of my chars to be bakers. Why would you put required components for one of the few drinks we can make that we might actually be able to be a competitive force in the bazaar with, require a cross skill for?

While I concede the point of making some of the components more expensive than others....who fell and hit their head, the day that it was decided to make "Yarrow" a 26pp item??? That is ridiculous!

And for my last part of the complaint....Who was thinking when it was
decided that people should have to have their characters stand around not
accomplishing ANYTHING foraging? I have fallen asleep (waiting for the 4
minutes for my forage button to pop back out) many times. And I am
grateful that I have a character that forages, because the "Tea Leaves" I
need to stand in EK and forage for, people want an unholy amount of money for if they sell them in the bazaar.

Now. I will absolutely concede that nothing in life is "fair". But I (and
several others I have communicated with ingame and outside game) get really frustrated at the fact that I pay money to play this game for fun, and end up getting frustrated because of what appears to be some narrow minded conceptual thinking.

--------------

With that mess above all said. I realize that you guys probably did
something with some brewing recipies from PoP and LoY that haven't been
found yet. But PoP (any tier II+ zone) items that are needed for components is really just catering to a select few people.
I am a casual player, and will probably never see any of the keyed zones,
because I am not in an uber, or raiding guild. So *IF* there are new
recipies there, they will be either unattainable (if the pieces are nodrop)
or unreachable because of the cost that people want for the components.

LoY zone info is still somewhat sketchy. Some zone essences that are useless to skill up's. But nothing to give the people that have invested their time in brewing, anything to really work with yet has been discovered.

So how can we work together (you and I, your team and the brewers of EQ, etc) to maybe come up with some new *attainable* recipies, that will compete with the bakers and the smithers out there, that make products that are actually sellable, and usable??

Or, can something be done that gives a use for the alcohol tolerance skill?

Either way, know that I am willing to work with you guys....I am willing to
experiment somewhat to find new stuff....BUT, you guys have to give me/us something to work with....

I very much hope to hear back from you on this. Something personal and not just an auto-responder.

Either way, I hope you have a good day.
==========

I don't think it will ever make a difference. But I wanted to post it here so that maybe the other brewers might take up the ball, and write to the developers too.

[Balkin]

Odd you should bring this up now. I was just about to ask people about their success rates, and if anyone had figured a possible trivial.

You're making Kaladim Constitutionals. The trivial is 250+

In fact, it's SO 250 +++++ that my average is 52% success rate with 250 + Geerlok. That's right, a maximum effective skill of 252, and I only make 52 out of 100 attempts.

At 219 skill, ie 30+ points lower than my skill (maybe a bit less if you use a geerlok) you truely can expect only a handfull of sucesses.

SIDE NOTE! make mino hero's brew to skill up to 248... really... It's dirt cheap!

In game terms, basically, this brew is so amazingly hard to make, that even the best brewers in the world barely get it rigth 50% of the time. *shrug*

As far as your real life comparison... well, he's making beer! When does that trivial?

I can't help you with the email you sent, but I'd be the trivial on constitutionals is 270+ or even more. Do NOT make these to skill up. At least not till you trivial mino's brew.

Good luck in your brewing.

[Etadera]

Well, I do use a geerlok, so 'supposedly' that would put my skill level at 229.95%. And you, with a 250 skill should technically be a 262.5%.

You said to make mino heros brew. I concede that it is cheap. And I have lots of room to carry the casks to make it. I just cannot possibly convey to you how much I despise a useless nine item combine.
I mean, yes I can make them to skill up. But it drives me crazy to spend all the time to do it, and have nothing to show for it when I sell the product back to the vendor. Also unmentioned till now, somewhere between 200 and 205, I made several hundred of these, and had no skill ups at all.

Whenever I plan on brewing, after using my druid to acquire all the necessary parts, I get on and get some friends to buff me up. Kei brings my int to 255, HoV brings most of my other petty stats up some. AGI, Cha...every stat I have when I start tradeskilling is above 165.

I know there has been discussions/arguements that it does or does not help. But my friends hook me up, so if nothing else, it can't hurt.

What has me frustrated is that 80 combines and not one skill up. I have never gone that far between skill ups before, except with the mino heros brew. Which was why I stopped making them.

It wasn't that I *expected* a bunch of successes. I just didn't expect hardly any successes and no skill ups at all.

Someone started baking the same time I started brewing. He got 250 about 45 minutes ago (had to log onto aim to tell me about it) **and** one his first attempt, made the trophy. So I questioned him extensively.

We both have two accts, and practice about the same ability to gather supplies. I have spent (including the occasional KEI when my friends aren't on) about 2500pp (incl. corker) to get to a 219 skill. I have made about 3k from the various useful drinks that I have been able to sell in the bazaar. So I am "slightly" ahead in the overall there.

He had spent about 9k including his geerlok and artisan seal. Overall he has made somewhere between 22 and 26k back on the sales of his foodstuffs.

Now I am getting really frustrated. Which is what prompted me to add this in. So that everyone could see that brewing is so far behind the other tradeskills in 'fairness' and marketability.

If I could go back and start over.....I would give serious consideration to become a baker instead.

[Lilosh]

No, He doesnt have 262.5.

Make skill, after all modifiers is 252. So has been stated by SoE, and so we shall believe.

When you hit 240 + Geerlok, you will not see any rise in success rates by getting those last 12 points.

And KC is the BD cultural of Brewing, so to speak. Success rates are horrid, even at 250. Trying it at 220 is asking for even worse success.

-Lilosh

[Calabar]

I hate to say it, but if you decide to do more trade skills you’re likely to see many more of those 80+ runs without any skill ups. This seems to be especially true for combines between 180 and 220. *shrugs* A lot of it is just a mater of luck. My druid took brewing to 200 without hitting any long runs with no skill ups. But my shaman had several runs of 80+ combines with no skill ups. In fact, going from 248 to 249 took something like 180 combines. But then his last point came 6 combines later. And my poor druid had a run of well over 200 combines without a skill up for one of his last points to 200 pottery. His wisdom with 245 at the time.

The first time this happened to me it really bothered me because I thought there was something wrong with my character. But I’ve since just accepted it as part of the game. The best advice I can give is not to let it get to you. If you start getting frustrated then stop. Go kills some orcs or something. Play a different character. Or turn off the PC and read a book. Give yourself a bit of time and then come back to your trade skill. If you’re stubborn enough the points will eventually come.

[Delfontes]

Grobb Liquisized meats require that I either be a baker, or know one willing to make a component for me. I don't *want* to be a baker. I don't want any of my chars to be bakers. Why would you put required components for one of the few drinks we can make that we might actually be able to be a competitive force in the bazaar with, require a cross skill for?

Que?

People do 1 tradeskill? This does not compute.

I will complain right next to people who say brewers don't have enough recipes...

I will stop the complaint very short of saying it is a hard skill to go up on.

Grobb Liquid Meat is easy, store bought and +6 sta +6 str, granted it is 1 of 3 retail drinks, but it isn't bad at all.

Kaladim Constitutionals are ANNOYING, as a GM I do not like failing 50% of the time on anything... that is just a pet peeve of mine though. Double the price of Yarrow, and make it a standard 5% fail, and I'd rejoyce, I just feel so pathetic pressing combine and failing half the time... to the point that I hate making them, even though the profit is fairly decent.

[Lilosh]

Kaladim Constitutionals are ANNOYING, as a GM I do not like failing 50% of the time on anything... that is just a pet peeve of mine though. Double the price of Yarrow, and make it a standard 5% fail, and I'd rejoyce, I just feel so pathetic pressing combine and failing half the time... to the point that I hate making them, even though the profit is fairly decent.

EVERY tradeskill has something to fail 50%.

Misty Thicket Picnics
Hobgoblin Surprise
Elemental Bows, And WE Cultural Bows.
ALL BD CULTURAL
Almost All velium jewelry
Spiritstones/Faithstones
A good number of tinkering combines.


Face it. Kaladim Con. is the hardest drink in the world. You will fail. Brewing doesnt get treated any easier then the rest.

[Etadera]

I appreciate everyone responding. It makes me feel a little better actually hearing from you all, rather than just knowing that there are people experiencing the same....if that makes sense.

No, He doesnt have 262.5.

Make skill, after all modifiers is 252. So has been stated by SoE, and so we shall believe.

I definately didn't see that before. Kind of makes me wonder what the point of trying so hard to get the skill to 250 is really for....

And KC is the BD cultural of Brewing, so to speak. Success rates are horrid, even at 250. Trying it at 22 is asking for even worse success.

Trying it at 22? You mean you are level 22 and trying, which makes it harder than if you were level 52 or 62? If level make a big difference, then I am seriously shafted, because I (as my skills char) am only lvl 4.

The first time this happened to me it really bothered me because I thought there was something wrong with my character. But I’ve since just accepted it as part of the game. The best advice I can give is not to let it get to you. If you start getting frustrated then stop. Go kills some orcs or something. Play a different character. Or turn off the PC and read a book. Give yourself a bit of time and then come back to your trade skill. If you’re stubborn enough the points will eventually come.

Well, I don't mind doing those things. And usually do just that. It is moreso the 'time sponge' that it is becoming, to sit there and accomplish nothing (if I am doing mino hero brews) or very little (if I am doing KC's).

Heh heh. I just would like to see enough people express their frustrations on SoE, and maybe the developers there would give us some additional recipies.

[Lilosh]

And KC is the BD cultural of Brewing, so to speak. Success rates are horrid, even at 250. Trying it at 22 is asking for even worse success.

Trying it at 22? You mean you are level 22 and trying, which makes it harder than if you were level 52 or 62? If level make a big difference, then I am seriously shafted, because I (as my skills char) am only lvl 4.

Sorry, I am a moron today. That was a typo, and should have said "Trying at 220 is asking for even worse success"

I have edited my post above.


-Lilosh

[Inyidd]

Trying it at 22? You mean you are level 22 and trying, which makes it harder than if you were level 52 or 62? If level make a big difference, then I am seriously shafted, because I (as my skills char) am only lvl 4.

I think he meant "trying it at 220 (skill)", not level 22.

--Inyidd

Edit: Durn it! Beat to the punch again. *sigh*

[Delfontes]

EVERY tradeskill has something to fail 50%.

I wont get into that argument. (mutters something about JCM)

The fact that there are other items that always fail 50% of the time does not mean it is right.

A misty thicket picnic is basically putting a bunch of pre made food into a basket... yeah, that should fail 50% of the time.

I will not be convinced that if you are the best you can possibly be at a skill, any skill, you will fail half the time making something. Heck, I wouldn't even mind if they just lowered failure as you make the same product more, though the coding would be difficult. (A veteran of 1000 Kali's would fail less than the guy making them his first time, no matter their respective skills.. though a GM brewer would do better than a non-brewer from previous knowledge on other drinks).

[Etadera]

People do 1 tradeskill? This does not compute.

Why not? I have no dsire to sink tons of very-hard-to-replace plat into multiple tradeskills. I just want to GM one, and brewing seemed natural since I do some of that in real life, for fun.

Grobb Liquid Meat is easy, store bought and +6 sta +6 str, granted it is 1 of 3 retail drinks, but it isn't bad at all.

GLM is fine. I don't fail that often but the triv is 216. Which while I get lots of salable product, and I can make a few plat doing it, my skill is not going up -*AND*- I need to either take up baking to 80ish or pay someone to make the meats for me. Which EITHER is a nuisence (sp?) and P.I.T.A.

I also feel that the KC is annoying as is ANY 8 or 9 item combine. But making yarrow even more expensive and reducing the failure rate would be nice.

[Lilosh]

I need to either take up baking to 80ish or pay someone to make the meats for me. Which EITHER is a nuisence (sp?) and P.I.T.A.

I also feel that the KC is annoying as is ANY 8 or 9 item combine. But making yarrow even more expensive and reducing the failure rate would be nice.

Honestly.

I could get baking from 0-80 in about 30 minutes. Assuming I already had gear that I used for tradeskills.

Have a fileting knife? ONE COMPONENT combine to 143
Dont' have a knife? Don't want one? TWO COMPONENT combine to 131.

All vendor bought. Too easy. If you can't spend 20-30 minutes to make your brewing life easier for the rest of time, then I have no sympathy.

And on a somewhat broader note:

Tailors needs to make studs, Smiths Need Padding, Both of them need Tempers/Oils. Fletching (Planar) need smithing/tinkering. Tinkering needs smithing and fletching. Baking needs some brewing. Baking also requires Smithing/Pottery to make our utensils. And brewing needs a bit of baking. I'm not sure what tradeskill Potters need, but I wouldnt be suprised if they have a secondary skill.

Heck, even JEWELCRAFT requires you to smith a 115 trivial combine for Gem Studded Chain.


No tradeskill is an island, my friend.

-Lilosh

[Tinile]

I'm not sure what tradeskill Potters need, but I wouldnt be suprised if they have a secondary skill.

Potters just need pocket lvl 49 enchanters! And of course we have the ability to fail on uber trivial items in the kiln. :x

[cattywumpus]

Brewing is cheap and has readily available components. The only real roadblock to Grandmastery is the sheer number of combines needed. Only jewelcraft can be GMed without farming or buying rare components and it can be horrendously expensive if you are unlucky or not an enchanter.

Without the difficulty of 3000-4000 Minotaur Hero Brew combines there would be far too many GM brewers for it to be anything but a waste of plat since it would be impossible to sell anything in a market that flooded.

Even as it is the market is rough enough with under-cutters coming along every few days and wrecking what's left of the market for the few marketable recipies we have.

Some new recipies would be a godsend to our market and allow us to spread out and try new things but considering how brewing has been overlooked in the last two expansions and several tradeskill patches I doubt the dev team will ever throw us a bone.