Alchemy idea: Rez potions

[Wybart]

I think there are several problems with it:

1) Price: A diamond is not expensive. 500pp is not expensive. I'd say this would have to cost at least 10k to be any kind of balanced.

2) Fairness: %-rez will be very hard to set. If we are going by the intention of the potion, they will almost all be used to rez clerics, and if the %-rez on the potion is low, clerics will be the ones to suffer the most, since everyone else will get a full rez from the cleric. If the %-rez is high enough (and cost is not high), groups may use this to avoid picking clerics for groups and just take druids. Again, clerics will suffer the most.

3) Abuse: Especially in the hands of Rogues!, monks, mages, and maybe even bards, the possibilities are endless. Actually, I think I'd make this potion WAR-PAL-SK only. This is a bit more powerful for SK's than others, but I think they are due for an upgrade anyway. Paladins may bitch a little about it, but as long as the cost is very high, I think it is balanced ok.

-----

Another idea is a non-tradeskill way: Clerics get a spell: Clerical resurrection. Before an adventure the cleric casts this on the target player. This player ends up with a summoned rez stick on the cursor LORE, NO-DROP, NO-RENT. It is a 100% rez, and will only work on a corpse of the cleric who summoned it. They may have to make engine changes to implement this though, and there are still a few abuse problems when handing this to the "wrong" classes, so this would have to be limited again.

[dahna]

, I think I'd make this potion WAR-PAL-SK only. This is a bit more powerful for SK's than others, but I think they are due for an upgrade anyway. Paladins may bitch a little about it, but as long as the cost is very high, I think it is balanced ok.

Considering that Pal already have a rez line and the Sk a summon corpse, it wont be appropriate to give them a special potion only for them. The WAR potion would add more autonomy as they already have a lot of utility device (self invis, shrink...), and I dont think the cleric community will agree. But we are going too far imo in the rez discussion, and this point is already discussed heavily on others forum (especially the "give rez spells to others classes" *wink TDG*)

Another idea is a non-tradeskill way: Clerics get a spell: Clerical resurrection. Before an adventure the cleric casts this on the target player. This player ends up with a summoned rez stick on the cursor LORE, NO-DROP, NO-RENT. It is a 100% rez, and will only work on a corpse of the cleric who summoned it. They may have to make engine changes to implement this though, and there are still a few abuse problems when handing this to the "wrong" classes, so this would have to be limited again.

This is interesting but again, giving the ability for cleric to have a full permanent 100% rez can be a very heavy debate on the risk vs reward / trivialisation / dumbumisation of the game.

To recap that has been said at the beginning, the idea of a rez potion was to avoid the impossibility to CR due to the most common problem : the cleric cannot get to the corpses although some of his companions are there. Why? Because the way to the corpse is impossible to use again naked (lots of mobs or see invis mobs) or because (see invis) mobs are camping the corpses.
This is the case on some continent (dying at some dragon feet, in a dungeon...) though you can call help from others players; in an instanced adventure (Ldon) though you can hardly lose your corpse unless you got lost and trained all the mobs to the end of the dungeon; or both (God trials) this is the most difficult case, for exemple what happened to me :wipe in Yxxta trial and some mobs see invs/sos at entrance of the dungeon AND camping corpses deeper in the dungeon.

In that case, the only fair solution that come to my mind is to have at most a summon corpse/player potion, but again there would be still abuse (flagging and such-though the use of rogue still exist) and it make non sense if you lost the trial and want to get back your corpse faster than the usual repop.

[Lickity]

Or, being that shaman are the class that is SUPPOSED to communicate with the spirit world, we could make the potion shaman useable only. The point of this potion is not to be a get-rich-quick scheme for shaman, but a way of giving them utility in high-end content. As it sits, if you do a GoD mission now, you are foolish to not bring a cleric to heal, or a paladin to tank, because of the massive death rate. By allowing shaman the ability to have a "spirit summon" that yields no experience, but is not considered a resurrection so that a cleric can restore XP to the corpse later, it would give GoD groups a chance to use a druid healer, and perhaps have a reason to have a shaman in the group.

These potions are not an excuse to replace Clerics, there is nothing that EQ could do to remove cleric utility from the game. Shaman have been effectively removed from use already, clerics NEED to be nerfed, and this is a small step towards balancing the healing classes, as well as giving shaman a reason to bother maxing alchemy out.

NOTE: being that these are shaman only useable, they wouldn't need a high-expense reagent, or a cleric to "summon" some component for it. Summoning the spirit world is a shaman ability in and of itself. I would have no objection to using a diamond or something, but the price shouldn't be a huge burden that would make it out of the price range of the casual lvl 65 shaman.

[Shismar]

CotH should be no problem

Rez potions are way to powerful imo. I dont think they are appropriate for the shaman class either.

Actually the Shaman would be the most appropriate class for making such a potion. Not only because we are already potion makers, but also because we are the primitive race's priests and are supposed to be close to the spirit world.

They can be abused. Monks/Rogues can drag a dead mage to all kinds of places that would be inaccessbile without a raid, then just rez the mage and start a CoTH chain. Vast amounts of content can be skipped. This is the basis for the Vox Staff price nerf. The staff + Monk/Rogue + mage = massive content skipping.

No it can not be abused. Any place that CotH is not wanted by SOE it just does not work. Every other place there are already possibilities to work around obstacles. Even my barely elemental guild has 2 CotH mages parked in VT permanently. This is possible anywhere but in instanced zones. And guess what, they can just make those noCotH if it whould really be a problem.

If they gave shaman bottled rez potions, they would almost HAVE to remove CoTH / Summon corpse from the game to reset balance.

Guess what, CotH is already severly limited.

Ok, it would be necessary to make such a potion expensive. Also the rez % should be low, beneath 50% I would say. It would be good if a cleric or paladin was involved in the creation. Alternatively, a cleric or paladin could turn an inert version of the potion into a active, norent version (tradable).

Overall, I think it is a very good idea and I see neither any major exploitability or dumbing down issues.

------------------
Shismar Tarasiz
Elder Prophet of Shining Alliance
Prexus

[Ersiusp]

If a potion is going to be class restricted, why not just make it a spell? I thought the whole point of potions was that anyone could use them.

[Aethn]

No it can not be abused. Any place that CotH is not wanted by SOE it just does not work. Every other place there are already possibilities to work around obstacles. Even my barely elemental guild has 2 CotH mages parked in VT permanently. This is possible anywhere but in instanced zones. And guess what, they can just make those noCotH if it whould really be a problem.

Let me give you some examples of how this can be abused, since you dont think it can be.

The reason the rez stick sell/buyback was nerfed is because of the content skip in NTOV. Back when NTOV was the top zone, we killed Vulak'Aerr 32 times before he was a ring event, we killed Aaryonar 2 times. Why? Because the rez stick allowed us to skip 90% of NTOV kill the boss only. Aaryonar was the dragon that set the bar for NTOV guilds. Call him the gatekeeper if you will. His AE was a raid breaker back then, if you could not kill "Roy" with strategy, then the rest of NTOV was probably beyond your ability. Still holds true today.

VT is an example you used. Ok, lets assume you do not have a guild that can donate a fulltime mage for COtH. Rogue can SOS a mage to the spot, and rez him. Content skipped.

Lets look at Plane of Air. Your guild has no Xegony key. You convince a SOS rogue with a key from another guild to drag a Necro to the Xegony portal. He quickly rezzs the necro, then trains the mobs from the portal while the necro zones. Hits Escape and WALLA, Necro corpse summon chain setup for a guild that has never EARNED a Xegony key.

The examples are endless. Bottle rez is NOT in the best interests of the Game and its health.

[BobbunPovar]

Vast amounts of content can be skipped.

Oh, my! People want to skip vast amounts of tedious content that serves no purpose except to waste time? Imagine that! Yes, a decent rez capability usable by other classes would be a powerful capability. But let's not forget that in many cases the argument about content skipping is the result of poor game design to begin with. If the only barrier to reaching a mob is a long series of trash mobs, then I think skipping them all through a mechanism like this should be legitimate. If there are mini-bosses you're supposed to kill along the way, then let the main boss summon their aid if they are skipped on the way in.

There's too much of the game that has ridiculous restrictions on class capabilities for the purpose of protecting content, and in many cases it's pointless and should have been addressed through better zone design or better encounter design. It's just "easier" to nerf levitate, CotH, rez sticks, whatever. Here's a couple of examples:

Xegony: To prevent people from CotH'ing to her, the entire zone is CotH restricted. Yet summon corpse is allowed, so people bypass the hours of useless clearing to get to her anyway. They just all have to go through the fine roleplaying methodology of "zone in, make a corpse, zone back in, drop group when rezzed" The nerfing of one of a magician's class defining capabilities serves no real purpose except to drive up platinum costs of raiding Xegony and keep rogues busy dragging corpses from zone in on other raids in the zone.

Qinimi: To prevent people from summoning extra help in encounters designed for limited numbers of people, both CotH and corpse summoning are disabled. Possibly for the same reason the zone is a no-lev zone as well, which strips Spirit of Eagle in a zone that is a major travel crossroads for the expansion. The true irony here, though, is that the Gates of Discord expansion brought into common use the solution to the problem. The restricted encounters should have been put into a separate dynamic zone, with the numerical and readiness requirements restricted at the expedition level. Then the restrictions on basic class defining capabilities would be unnecessary.

So for the rez potion idea, I say yes. I don't even see a reason why it should be incredibly expensive. If it involves a cleric at some point and has a significant drawback compared to actually taking a cleric to do the job, I think that's good enough. As much as it pains me to say it, though, I do think it would be a good idea to only allow it's use in new zones going forward, since there's no practical way to go back and fix all the previous design mistakes. That restriction should be a "compact" between designers and players, though, with the other half being that going forward the game designers will start viewing the need for restrictions on basic utility spells and class defining capabilities as red flags indicating poor design rather than as necessary restrictions to protect content.

- Bobbun

[Asahel]

simply make it it self only for the possessor. just like any potion.

[Aethn]

simply make it it self only for the possessor. just like any potion.

Now that is probably the only way I would agree that a rez potion is a good idea, self only.

[slappig]

Aren't resurrection potions already available?

Looking over the alchemy potion recipe lists, there are several that are for resurrection. Are these different from the rez potion topic under discussion? (I didn't see a comment on what the potions actually do). They also seem to be for different recommended levels.

[muana]

rez potion

Ok here is the situation, you don't want this to be too overpowerful, you don't want it to be something that people use on a regular basis for content skipping, you don't want it to be too cheap, you WANT to give it to the shaman for something that is very useful in a raid.
Let's see how this should be made:

First we get a cleric to cast imbue essence emerald-comsumes an EE, 3x Diamonds, gate potion

Secondly the shaman combines this-embued EE with a few herbs (200 skill + Alchemy Mastery 2 MIN skill-no fail)

herb cost = rez amount
1000pp=0% rez
5000pp=50% rez
10000pp=96% rez

so the regular group is likely to use the 0% rez while a raid group may have some of the 96% rez potions

Now here is the kicker that makes it so that it isn't too powerful, anyone can cast it, but it is limited to ressing the cleric or paladin, so in essence it makes it so that you have to be willing to pull at least two corpses, because in essence a necro can summon and res already and do the content skipping, so we can't be worried about that but why should a group without a regular resser be able to content skip as well?

my 2 cents

Muana

[Veril]

Personally I would love a rezz potion. it would give me a compelling potion to manufacture with alchemy.

I like the idea of other classes being involved int he production.

Essence Emerald from a Necro,
Imbued Blue Diamond from a Cleric (add a new spell for all clerics)
Imbued Raw Diamond from a Druid (add a new spell for all druids)
Bunch of herbs from a shaman (costing 300-500pp or so).

This would involve all priest classes and necro's to do the production - thus strengthening druids as well as shaman. It would be taking away from necro's and clerics, but by making them involved would return some money-making opportunities to them.

Base cost of manufacture is 1500-2000pp

That gives a 1 dose potion of rezz - 25% XP return.
Combine 5 of them to give a 1 dose potion of rezz - 50% XP return.
Combine 10 of them to give a 1 dose potion of rezz - 90% XP return.

[The Judge, Alchem]

It's absolutely absurd to even suggest that it would be worth to make a potion for one 90% rezz that costs 10x1500-2000=ridiculous. Completely insane and please don't ever mention a cost to lose ratio combine in these Shaman forums ever again or Sony might think they need to nerf us . . . again.

[Lothay]

Please keep this discussion civil.

Telling people what to do or not do, and/or calling theri ideas 'rediculous' is impolite at best.

If dicussion devloves into insults and denigration of ideas, this thread will be closed.

[Tudani]

No matter how high of a cost we suggest, it won't be high enough for SoE to ever give it to us without major restrictions. All clicky rez items with the exception of items that were only rez class useable were removed from the drop tables and are being phased out, and I seriously doubt SoE ever intends to reverse that decision.

The only way I'd see them doing something like this would be if it were zone restricted, like coth.

Make it exp type zones only, with the inclusion of raid zones where the ability wouldn't allow content skipping, and they might consider it.

In that case, I'd say two different potions. One that's useable on a cleric/pally/necro only, either clicked by them or by a person at the body, 96% rez, and low cost to make. This would remove a lot of the exp cr burden from the cleric or rezzer.

Second potion would be useable on/by everybody. Low exp return, maybe 25% and high cost (at least 1 or 2k per charge).

You'd still want a rezzer in your group, but it would give a group some options if they don't.