WE NEED TO POKE SOE HARD

[Itek]

Ok, I guess I will have to post what I didn't last time.

If you are a GM (insert favorite skill here) you will have some items of that level for sale.

If you are "Paying" for a combine .... do you not understand "caveat emptor" (yes, I can't spell)

Customer: "Paying 2000 plat for a combine."
Itek: "Ok, hand me the stuff, if I succeed I will trade the item back for the agreed on price."
Customer: "How do I know you won't cheat me?"
Itek: /ignore

Gosh that was frigging hard. Gimme another situation where "how can I tell between an honest person and a cheat" can't be simply answered with "if you have to ask you shouldn't ask."

Um, guild tag?

Um, known name on the server?

Um, have 14 Stormreaper Boned armors on my trader?

Um, not asking for the cash up front?

Um, you have a /report screen

Um, if you don't like it then you can save the 2000 plat and skill up to 250 yourself?

As an example....

If {name removed} in "Know Griefers" on my server said they would do the combine... I'd take my money elsewhere.

If someone ANONYMOUS and /con green with no surname and no guild tag offered to do the combine... I'd take my money elsewhere.

But if I wanted the combine I'd take /anon off, and show them my wares.

Trust me or don't.

According to some people it's EASY to make 600 plat an hour. (But they won't tell me where... *grumble* oh well)

3 and a half hours to make 2k plat.

or

Have someone accuse me of being a cheat to my face.

*Itek wanders off to camp plat, letting Rude_Potential_Customer linger in /ignore*

If you have the skill, there's no problem proving it. You ALREADY have the products, the reputation, and aren't afraid.

If you don't have the skill, even a Trophy won't help.

If you are a customer, dealing with complete unknowns is usually a bad idea anyway you slice it.

Think of traveling in the backwaters... you get hungry and stop in a small town for lunch.

McDonalds or the "greasy spoon" Mom and Pop operation.

McDonalds you know what you are going to get.

With the spoon you might get GREAT food, or... well...

Watch the operation for a bit, wander in and sniff around.

Case in point.

Went to stop for the night at a hotel. Wanted to eat but was SICK of driving. There is a pair of restaurants on the same block. One has a few cars on the lot, the other there are no parking places at 8pm on a Monday night.

Care to guess which one I went in? (best Mexican food I have EVER had, wonderful service, asked to speak to the Manager, scared him silly - he thought I was upset, told them I was VERY happy and left 50 percent tip)

ARGH.... this is why I just posted the "short answer" ...

I could go on and on and on.... and ON...

I guess it just never occurred to me that there would be a problem finding someone who FOR SURE had the skill I needed.

/who all halfl druid 65 "guild of uberness" (tailoring)
/who all warr 65 "guild of semi-uberness" (smithing)
/who all rang 65 "guild of known decent folks" (fletching)

/ooc "Any KEI" (jewelcraft)

If they don't have the skill, they probably KNOW someone with the skill.

RandomRanger: "sorry, I don't tradeskill, but Bill-the-guildmate does all the PoP combines for our guild."

RandomDruid: "We have 3 GM tailors, but we charge 3k for a combine."

RandomWarr: "Sorry, I get all my smithed stuff from Cigarskunk, ask him."

No matter how you slice the cake... you can find what you are looking for without needing to be rude.

I play to have fun. In real life I *WISH* I could simply put rude/ignorant/stupid customers on /ignore, or at least tell them to use the egress located to their left and "Watch The Closing Doors."

actual quote from recently in PoK ...

Ranger: "How do I get to PoTranquillity"

hmm...

/ rangername
28 Ranger Rangername

Itek: /ooc "first you gain 18 levels real fast..."

argh.... just burns me up.... (told you I withheld my full opinions the first time...)

If you are the customer there are LOTS of ways to find people with the ACTUAL skill you need without needing to say "show me the trophy" ...

If you are the Skilled Tradeswoman ... who the heck is Rude_Customer and how badly do I need that 2k.

"it's not fair to expect people to take you at your word... they have no way of knowing..."

WRONG. I _DO_ expect people to take me at my word. As there IS NOTHING ELSE. (which is the POINT of the whine in the first place) AND there ARE ways of telling between Rip_Off_Artist and Skilled_Artist.

Name (and concurrent reputation)
Guild
Gear
Items for Sale

Ok, I'm just rambling and repeating myself now....

Over and over...

It's like a rat in my brain ...

Customer: /ooc "looking for a 200+ smith for a combine"
Itek: "Ok, I will try it for you, and you can pay me if I succeed."
Customer: "I don't trust you."
Itek: "Then why did you /ooc? If you have 'trust issues' asking random strangers isn't very wise now IS IT?!!??"

[eqNichola]

Ok, I'm just rambling and repeating myself now....

Oh and Cigar, yes, my 'hmmmm' antennae were also twitching like mad on reading that post where Mr This-is-my-only-post 'accidentally' made the wrong trophy... In fact I think I will try a trophy tonight on someone with sub 200 skill just for my own peace of mind... I too remember a post from the ezboard days where trophies were found to be the first skill-restricted combine.

[Woodeckt]

Now, I'm not saying that the poster made it up just because I don't recognise the name and the person is only a visitor of course - they may have changed/broke it so that you can try with lower skill now

I agree and think it is a bit suspicious but I posted that as I believe people till I am proven wrong. I know I have done one of my trophies at 201 the other was at 216 or so and still waiting on my brewing one. I do not have the cash to throw away trying under 200+

WRONG. I _DO_ expect people to take me at my word. As there IS NOTHING ELSE. (which is the POINT of the whine in the first place) AND there ARE ways of telling between Rip_Off_Artist and Skilled_Artist.

Name (and concurrent reputation)
Guild
Gear
Items for Sale

I have to stand up and applaud you have said what I have been thinking the entire time.

My Name
My Guild Tag "TRAMPERS TRADE"
Gear (I wear some of my stormreaper armor)
Items for Sale: on my mule and I point them to her all the time.

I am only level 55 but my reputation is what I have.

Case in point logging on yesterday got swamped with tons of tells wanting to buy items and I have a pad and pen by my keyboard with a list in order of my customers as those darn tufts are too rare a forage.

I do expect someone to trust me if asking for a combine and when I was lower in tailoring at 201 with trophy I would reply that I was 201 and link trophy. I had some people want me to do the combine anyway as GM tailors are rare to find availiable on my server and some who wanted to wait. Now at 242 with trophy I am at maximum skill.

Just my thoughts.

[Mahlig]

I tell them what my skills are (or log my friend on that is a 250 tailor) and tell them they can pay me for successes. If they do not trust me, I have lost nothing but an opportunity. Case in point, I was on my mini-druid and someone wanted to buy tailored bags. I sent them a tell and said I would. "/w all <mini-druid>" yielded 23 Druid. I got no response from the person. /shrug Another person auctioned 5 minutes later. I responded. They asked how much? I said that the pelts were 50pp, so I would do them for 50pp each. Deal. Ok...Meet at Loom. Here are the 3 bags you wanted. WOW...thanks...250pp. Should only be 150. Yeah, but you were not charging enough. /shrug /ooc Thank you for making the bags, <mini-druid>...First person sends tell "Can you make me bags too?" "Sorry...out of pelts" I don't need the money. I do it to be helpful. A 63 wizard and 61 druid (friend mentioned above) can pretty much keep the monetary supplies high. You don't want to trust me? I don't care. I can live without your business. Remember, YOU are the one asking for a skill. I am not asking you to let me do it, but offering to assist you. I don't bother to use /ignore.

As far as GM, who is to say what that is? I am in the minority when I say that GM is 200+ (meaning greater than 200). I have been in the minority before. If you can show me where on your character that GM is associated with 250, I will believe you. As it is, I will stick to my believe that 200+ is GM and advertise as such (though I *do* put my skill level in there) when someone looks for a GM tailor. Luckily, my guild (for the most part) is well respected and I am known in my guild to be a heavy tradeskiller.

[Balkin]

I kind of like the idea of a GM seal that is makeable at only 250 skill... for those that will only let 250 people combine for them...

The people that ignore low level people not believing they can have the skill to make something I submitt this...

My 16th Dwarven Cleric was 201 blacksmith... (he's now 36 with 201 skill, and approaching 400 non trivial combines with no skill up /cry)

My 21 Erudite Wizard is a 250 brewer with Trophy...

I don't need their business that bad *shrug* They don't believe me, they can go find someone else.

[Railina]

If you have the skill, there's no problem proving it. You ALREADY have the products, the reputation, and aren't afraid.

How about this?
I hate doing non-trivial, or just below trivial combines for other people, I know what my skill is, they trust me enough to ask me to try the combine (even after i say things like "you know if i fail this i can't afford to try it again out of my own pocket"). If i succeed, i feel quite happy, and so do they, but if i fail, i feel like. . . well, like i failed. And with the RNG streaky as it is, it's possible to fail not just one, but 2 to 6 (or more!) in a row on a combine that's below your skill, let alone something like BD or PoP armor which isn't trivial to anyone. It's enough to shake your confidence, and you can see the numbers next to your skill. A bad bit of luck, with no way to prove that it was just bad luck, can damage even the most air-tight reputation.

You, being a tradeskiller, almost certainly know someone for any sort of tradeskilled item you might need. I know i do. But what about A_level_45_warrior who has scrimped and saved to buy a couple BDs, has (after being told, probably rudely, by the first smith he tried to talk to) gone and found out what else he needs and bought it too, and is now looking for someone who is willing to do a combine for the remaining pittance of his life savings. He doesn't know anyone's reputation, may not have higher level friends, and he can't afford to trust you blindly. Wouldn't it be better for him (and a lot easier on you) if you could just equip your "Seal of Grandmastery: Smithing" and let him inspect you?

Meditate on the phrase, "Optimist by nature, pessimist by policy"

[Morani]

Something that can HELP is to group up. If there is a success, a message will pop up. I don't know if it will if there is a failure. It doesn't address the issue of what SKILL the combiner has, but it does help to ferret out people with lesser morals.

[splunge]

Redo the Trophys. Real simple.

Make a new name for them. Make all new trophys a no-fail combine but skill restricted to 240+ (cause anyone can get a Geerlok for cheap making effective skill 252. (not to mention the trophy has 5% mod making skill 252 anyways))
Make a new combine where you combine old trophy with a simple item (metal bits etc). Its a no-fail combine, skill restricted to 240+.
Exact same stats/bag summon, just a slighly different, easily recognizable name.

This item is equipable. Anyone can inspect you and see it in your inventory.

Theres your 'Proof'. You can NOT get the new named trophy without 240+ skill. If you have it, you have the skill and anyone can see it. It cant be zerged/RNG'ed.

Feedback this. Couldnt hurt.

PS. Level, surname, gear and guild mean nothing. Im not guilded, and have no surname, I have 250 in 2 skills, 200 in 3 others and 186/188 in the last 2 (guess which 2. =) My tinkerbot is lvl 16, naked except for a spare earring, geerlok, 25CHA mug, no surname, no guild, and has 250 skill. I have a lvl 6 Karana-worhipping ranger fletcher thats now just a mule with 202 skill.

[Cigarskunk]

They should really just put in some way that upon inspecting someone, you can see what thier tradeskills are or include a comand that would let you send someone a unreproducable tell of your tradeskill levels.

[Pietre Christopher-Ryskin]

PS. Level, surname, gear and guild mean nothing. Im not guilded, and have no surname, I have 250 in 2 skills, 200 in 3 others and 186/188 in the last 2 (guess which 2. =) My tinkerbot is lvl 16, naked except for a spare earring, geerlok, 25CHA mug, no surname, no guild, and has 250 skill. I have a lvl 6 Karana-worhipping ranger fletcher thats now just a mule with 202 skill.

Ah, but you see, it does. Either I know you, know of you (or your affiliations), or you're a blank sheet of paper. Blank sheets of paper has no use other than to be recycled.

-I- am not going to gamble 100k on a blank sheet. The nature of trading is to rip off the other as much as possible, with one own's interest in mind. For some thats continued business, for others its instant business.

Since you have no guild (Assume: you're not terribly social) and on top of that, few levels (Assume: not really interested in all parts of the game), the fact that you may very well be a honest dedicated tradeskiller is meaningless since I can easily find the same skill elsewhere (Conclusion: No ties, easy to burn, high risk).

[KyrosKrane]

The question is not about trust; it's about certainty. You may want your customers to trust you. You may choose to /ignore them if they don't. That's your choice. Not mine.

I want to be able to certify to my customers that I have skill XX in this tradeskill. As a customer, I want any tradeskillers I approach to certify their skill to me too. When I'm risking several thousand plat on a combine, I don't care about the skiller's level, guild, or reputation. Those may help me increase the level of trust I put in the tradeskiller, but they do zilch for my certainty. I don't know the tradeskiller personally. I've never met him or her before today. Why should I trust this person with my hard-earned components?

As for being in a guild with a good reputation or wearing the stuff you make ... Well, let's look at some examples.

* I wear a suit of full Heraldic armor. Does that automatically make me a 250 smith? Of course not; I may have just bought it from the bazaar.

*What if I have a mule with several pieces of planar jewelry for sale? Am I a 250 JC'er with JCM3? Nope. I just bought them off a friend who does have those skills, but needs plat NOW -- I'll resell them over time for a nice profit.

*I belong to the server's uber guild. Does that make me a nice guy who'd never cheat in the game? Hah! Far too often, the players who are least respectful come from these uber guilds. Yes, those uberguilds have some really kind, nice, and helpful folks in them -- but like all guilds, they also have the occasional moron. Even if Joe_Dumbo (from my earlier example) is from my server's uber guild, that doesn't automatically mean he's kind, honest, generous, and fair.

OK, let's move away from the anger and try to focus on the core issue.

Do you object to there being a way to prove your skill? I mean an unforgeable, game-certified method of saying, I have XX skill in this tradeskill.

If you object, why? Note that you are not required to use it.

If you don't object, what would be the best method for it? Proposed so far:

* An easy-to-create, no-drop, equippable item that can only be made at skill X or higher (X can be any number; 242 was mentioned, though 240, 250 raw, or 250 effective would also work). Customers can inspect you, see the item equipped, and know you have the skill to make it.

* A message that shows in your inspect box (when someone right-clicks on you) giving your skills. This would be toggled off and on by you for each tradeskill, so you could select which skills to display.

* A way to click on your skill and have a message "spoken" (like in /say) certifying your skill. e.g., "Kyroskrane has skill 250 in blacksmithing." The message would be in a unique color that a player couldn't normally generate (say, yellow). This guarantees that the message would be authentic from the game and not faked by the player.

* Something else?

Let me know what you think.

[KyrosKrane]

Side note: Note that trust and certainty are not mutually exclusive. Just because I've certified my 250 skill to you doesn't automatically mean I'm an honest person who'll make the product and give it right back to you. I could be a 250 smith AND a thief. I certify my skill to you, take your items for the combine, /ignore you, and go on my merry way.

Trust and certainty go hand in hand. Each reinforces the other. Both are needed for a safe and happy transaction.

[Pietre Christopher-Ryskin]

I want to be able to certify to my customers that I have skill XX in this tradeskill. As a customer, I want any tradeskillers I approach to certify their skill to me too. When I'm risking several thousand plat on a combine, I don't care about the skiller's level, guild, or reputation. Those may help me increase the level of trust I put in the tradeskiller, but they do zilch for my certainty. I don't know the tradeskiller personally. I've never met him or her before today. Why should I trust this person with my hard-earned components?

Ah, see, I come from a different perspective. Trust first, then we can talk business. Call me a snob, but I choose my business partners based on who they are first, not what they can do (since any monkey can do just about anything, except possibly art) . Thats based on my own personal opinion, be it right or wrong, that skills can be taught and learned by choice, behaviour is largely imprinted.

But your point is absolutely valid for the new'ish player that maybe haven't been around since '99 and know a score of players and more than just a handfull of people. Today there's nothing except trial and error that will give such a customer any of the two components to trading which you name, trust and certaincy. Me, I've always been in favor of tradeskill "titles", and request for them have been raised since 99.

I think being able to "inspect" the skills would be nice. The inspect message can be turned off, and being inspected requires no action on the tradeskillers part.

[Cigarskunk]

The whole aspect of customers wanting to be able to trust someone who's going to do a combine is valid - putting them on ignore or jacking up your prices just because they have the audacity of wanting some assurance from a total stranger seems a bit harsh - you may know you're honest, the rest of us may know you're honest, but the poor sod you just put on ignore doesn't know you from the idiot who's just looking to score a possible skill up off of this person's hard won and expensive components.

[kiztent]

Even if the skill was inspectable, people - and I've seen many examples on this board as well - don't understand the relationship between skill, trivial and success (assuming we've guessed right so far).

You don't need to be skill 200 to forge an enchanted brick of valorium, but I've seen people ask for it - heck a 135 trivial combines goes 95 percent at 138 skill plus geerlok. But if you try it a 140 with geerlok and fail, try getting someone to believe it was bad luck and INSIST on a 200+ smith next time.

A 250 skill smith is not what you need for a suit of heraldic armour.

Heady Kiola's aren't automatically successful at 50 brewing skill.

And the list goes on...