The true cost of a finished peice

[Cigarskunk]

When a tradeskiller sells something, there are three things that need to be factored when pricing it -

1) vendor material costs (NPC or PC)

2) farming time (which is also effected by PC vendor cost - just because it only took me an hour to get the materials doesn't mean I should ignore the fact that as a raw material it's going for 10k each)

3) the time and effort it took me to get to that skill level

All said, I think that #3 is the component which most people miss when they price thier goods, which is both ironic and sad seeing as how that's the most important and valuable component in any player made item.

Come on folks - think about all of the time you spent sitting in front of a container clicking away like a mad man in order to get to your skill level?

It took me just over 2500 combines to go from 191 to 240 in baking - that's right, 2500. I don't even want to think about the number of combines it took to do everything up to that - I remember atleast ten backpacks full of fish and about eight backpacks of cheese so 6000 combines would be a very conservative estimate IMO.

Mind you - that's not even taking into account all of the sub-combines, the swapping of INT and CHR gear with normal combat gear, all of the buying and selling to and from the merchants, all of the time moving from XP zones to tradeskill zones, all of the bank space management hell, etc, etc, etc.

If iksars or halflings or some other race than trolls got cultural baking tomarrow, there's no way in hell I'd even pretend to try to put together a toon of that race to exploit it - I can't go through that again - no way, no how - not even gonna consider it.

That's what's the most valuable component in any tradeskill item - the weeks or months or years of time you spent slowly crawling from one skill point to the next, cheering the two you got from one stack and posting rants about the skill point that just won't come even after 200+ combines. The seemingly endless number of clicks you've performed, the mice you've worn out, the countless number of times that you've found that it was becoming hard to focus on the screen because you've gone too many straight hours of combines and are ready to pass out in front of the forge even though it's only 9pm.

So when someone wants to know why I'm pricing something that only takes X amount of farming and/or Y amount of merchant bought materials for the same amount as a simular mob dropped item, it's because it only took a few hours to farm that mob but it took me several weeks to get to the point that I could click that combine button.

That's the most expensive part of any item that I'm selling.

So which of those three factors the most into your pricing?

[Sylphan]

I don't ever get as much as I think an item is truly worth. But we all accepted that long ago -- we know tradeskillers are poorer than powerlevelers and always have been. And their items have lower stats. In any case, your category 3 assumes that gaining your skill was a chore, was work. If it was fun and enjoyable you probably don't feel a need to charge for it.

More important, the EQ game itself has devalued my time. Let's just assume that all the bakers always factor in all three things into their prices... what would then be the appropriate price for foods? I'd like to factor in the many hours spent gathering brownie parts to get past 150 baking... but oh, the new recipes made that easier. Not to mention that zones have changed and there are lower-level brownies now. Time spent merchant mining, but oh no merchants have 80 slots now. Then I'd charge for all the hours spent getting Centi meat, searching for Tae Ew meat, begging for Dragon meat... but oh look there are patty melts now. So even the 'appropriate' price for baked goods is really only the time spent making patty melts and MTPs.

People generally saw the patty melts as progress, at a price. There were hardly any potters around to complain about casserole dishes. There were relatively few complaints when Luclin made fine plate soooo much easier. But someday there's going to be a patchwork armor recipe that trivials at 208 tailoring and all those folks who worked so hard to get tailoring over 158 are going to make the whine of all time. Sorry, but your category 3 doesn't mean a **** thing in Verant/Sony's eyes.

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But that's the 'appropriate' price. Now let's get realistic.

Competition will occur, undercutting will occur, even if it's just to sell off the last of your supplies so you can exit the market because the prices are too low to be worth the effort.

And then there are the items used for skillup. When you make a hundred, or a thousand, widgets of your own accord, the 'time and effort' is not expended for the customer but for yourself. So category 2 and category 3 in this case are reduced to the time and effort it takes to put it on a bazaar mule instead of just selling it to a merchant or destroying it. It can even lead to things selling for less than materials cost. Until Verant/Sony decides to make skillup recipes seperate from good-stats items, or raise the sellback prices to semi-reasonable levels, there will always be certain items that just flood the market to a rediculous extent.

[kiztent]

I price items based on what I think I can sell them for (that is, what items of comparable worth sell for).

I don't think getting baking up to 191 was difficult, Hobgoblin meat is pretty cheap on vendors, brown gravy is easy to make.

Getting smithing to 191 was more annoying, teir'dal plate is much more annoying (and expensive) to make than hobgoblin suprises, but I sell the suprises for as much or more since that's what people will pay for items of equal worth in the different slots they fit.

[Phabos]

Usually, I try to price my largest sellers (GLM and HMP) to a point where I can make a decent profit (in my opinion) and still generate sales. The beauty of it all is that these goods are not that expensive to make in terms of farming and buying (relatively speaking on a cost per unit basis) after the initial outlay (i.e. corking device, time and cost to bring smithing and pottery up for utensils, etc.).

There is a time cost associated with my chosen tradeskills, which is why most stat food/drink costs pp instead of gp, but in my opinion, it is time well spent. I tradeskill because I enjoy it and for the profit it brings. I neither belong to a guild nor have the ability (or patience) to compete for Hill Giants and other mobs that drop large amounts of plat. In that sense, I am doing the same thing tradeskilling as others are doing camping, killing, and looting.

That being said, although I may be the only one, I do get some satisfaction being one of the relatively few players with the ability to create something new out of ingredients that anyone has access to. I also don't mind the hours of clicking it takes to skill up, gather ingredients, and subcombine everything. This satisfaction and enjoyment is a reward itself for my time. Endless camping of one mob to get one rare drop is, to me, boring. Taking an hour or two to tradeskill, then walking away to do something else, then going back to the oven/brew barrel is much more enjoyable. This freedom is also one of the benefits of tradeskilling.

In short, while my time IS valuable, the enjoyment I get is some reward for that time. That is why I don't price my goods incredibly high, not do I complain too much when the market falls a little of one person is undercutting. Perhaps other tradeskills are different, I don't know, but I hope to find out eventually (yes, even tailoring). That is why I charge the low end of the market. I don't feel like I undercut, but time spent in the Bazaar IS a waste to me. With only one account, I don't like sitting in the Bazaar and being restricted as to what little I can do, nor do I enjoy being forced to tie up my one phone line overnight or during the day while I am away. This is why time is not my most important concern pricing my products.

It may sounds harsh, but if the time it takes to skillup and make everything is not considered time well spent, and if the only concern is compensation for wasting valuable time, do something else. This is not directed at any one person, but at the group of people who feel that tradeskills exist only for profit. If your time is being wasted subcombining, farming, or skilling up, I understand your feelings, because it is the same way I feel camping for something that doesn't drop. At the end of the day, though, I WILL have something made to offer for sale thanks to tradeskilling. Therein lies the reward for my time.

I hope no one is offended by this post, and again, it is directed at no one in particular.

Phabos
Drunken Paladin of Brell
Tarew Marr
200 Baker
192 Brewer
Just enough Pottery and Smithing to get by
Just enough Tailoring to realize I hate it

[Laliana Silverfangs]

Since I do traderskills mostly for the fun of it, and personal benefits, I generally don't take the time to skill up, or farming or foraging times into account when I sell in the bazaar. This is simply because if I'm in the bazaar, I'm there only to get rid of my excess stock.

I'm also a druid. I can forage while I hunt so most foraged goods are no skin off my back. The only real forage I really dislike is Tea Leaves. When I need them I grab a fishing pole, head to EK and fish and forage at the same time. That way it doesn't feel like a complete loss of time.

So imo those two points are neither here nor there when I price my goods in the bazaar.

[Zacatac]

I've made quite a lot of Elven armor. While the chance for skill up was nice, it was certainly expensive to get started. But once I did, the money I got back from selling it made it worthwhile.

Now that I'm 250, the chance of skill up removed, I still make the items for profit only. Therefore, the biggest factors are indeed the 3 you listed. I often spend 10 hours a week of my play time doing nothing but gathering and farming supplies. Plus I need to drag an enchanter down to do 50 bricks of mithril at a time. And a cleric or druid to enchant emeralds.

So if anybody says "gee, that 7500 is a bit high for a bracer. BD's only cost 400pp" will not get any sympathy from me. My TIME & SKILL make this possible, not some bit of loot you picked up in PoN. It is most definately not a cost of materials calculation only.

[xaanru]

Although you may have included this in your point number 1, I think there should be a seperate point

4) failure rate.

I recently made a run of Mistletoe sickles. I let some guildies know I would let them have them at what they cost me to make, which was about 1200-1500pp. I forget the exact number. I had one question me along the lines of "I heard they only cost 350pp to make" Well, considering I tried 20, and ended up with 5....

Anyway, gotta consider failure rate when discussing cost.