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**kiztent** · 01-31-2003, 08:06 AM

Well.

You've got several choices. You can fight to preserve your market and make it very painful for him to skill up (you've got higher skill, let him start eating more failures at low profit - even though he's just doing this to skill up). You can let him have the market and see how he likes it - there's life after smithing. You can carry on with your prices (which are pretty reasonable), and let him deal with the people that are price conscious while dealing with the people that want it now.

I suspect ignoring the attack and carrying on is your best response. I suspect he doesn't really understand the tedium of dealing with people that bring a couple of essence of sunlight and figure they did everything and should get free combines. I suspect that once people begin to understand the annoyance of farming they'll go back to a smith that does their own farming.

How much of your business is pre-farmed and how much is custom ordered? If, as I suspect, there's not a lot of people that do complete pre-farming, his attack was an impressive smoke screen that yields nothing really, except establishing him as a jerk (I'm assuming here you have good relations with your customers, if not, you probably deserved this).

On the other hand, I can completely empathize with why someone who had to skill up after the Fine Plate adjustements might be just a little mad with someone who is making a killing and did their skilling up on Fine Plate.

And if he's using these tactics to get cheap skill up attempts (and he is, free sickle combines? transparent), driving you out of the market will mean he will take over your monopoly. Feel free to point out to people that these cheap prices will last only as long as he needs to use them for skilling up, then if he drives you out of business, expect to see prices jacked up.

**Jessamyn Sunweaver** · 01-31-2003, 08:31 AM

Well...

I generally have very good relations with my customers in reply to that. I, however, have stopped doing combines, and have had some people upset at me over it. I do have a lot of people who bought in the past from me still coming back, either to purchase more or just to talk as a friend.

I could try holding onto a stack of tempers and a few materials in case. Before I was only doing "to order" type of thing, and recently I've gone to putting an assortment on my bazaar mule.

**Frerin the Smith** · 01-31-2003, 08:32 AM

Shoot, don't just ignore him, HELP him. Let everyone know that you will be retiring from smithing for a bit and every group you are in, every stranger you come across, every server chat you join, let them know that all anyone has to do is

"Bring this smith a BD and 250pp and he will make you a piece of armor!"

Let him go through the long explanations of what's involved to get a combine ready, let him get tell after tell of people looking for cheap, easy "uber" armor. Give him more business, and badly informed business like all smiths get, than he can tolerate. Let him see how fun it is to "corner the market". When he burns out and throws his hammer into the lake in WC, you can move back in as the "mean and nasty smith who makes money and customers happy" and he can go grump about how people were taking advantage of him.

But I'm a bit of a grouch today.

**Groghe** · 01-31-2003, 11:02 AM

I'm not a smith and I can't wear any human cultural on any of my characters so let me offer some outside perspective for you Jessamyn.

Jessamyn, you might have good relations with your customers, but you have an abyssmal reputation with potential customers.

You currently have a stranglehold on high end human cultural on our server. You have a large bankroll and have in the past used that as leverage to outpurchase components in the bazaar and in the auction channel to limit availability for your competition. Was that your motive? Maybe not, but that's the perception. I'm not going to pass judgement on that type of competition but the end result is that I personally know two other human smiths being bankrolled to get them GM smithing just so people don't have to buy from you.

Currently, your only publicly declared competition is operating on advice given on these boards time and time again. It goes something like this:
"Get your customers to do the farming for you and offer combines at a reasonable fee. Particulary if its a non-trivial combine. Skill raises are good."

Is his fee reasonable? You don't seem to think so. I can't read his mind so can't tell you why he set his combine fee at what he did. Let people's perceptions work for or against him, the same way people's perceptions are currently working against you. Keep in mind that some of his potential customers will decide the time cost to do the farming isn't worth the result and will come to you for a quicker purchase.

This competition is no different in effect than the frequent tussles that erupt in high level raids with races to spawns, leapfrogging, ks'ing and such. The scope of the competition is merely limited to tradeskills.

You are in the equivalent position of the top guild on our server. Your competition is trying to reach the same plateau. Is there room for both of you? I suggest you have a reasonable, frank and patient discussion with him so the market isn't destroyed for you, him, or the smiths who come after

**Lilosh** · 01-31-2003, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by Frerin the Smith

Shoot, don't just ignore him, HELP him. Let everyone know that you will be retiring from smithing for a bit and every group you are in, every stranger you come across, every server chat you join, let them know that all anyone has to do is

"Bring this smith a BD and 250pp and he will make you a piece of armor!"

Let him go through the long explanations of what's involved to get a combine ready, let him get tell after tell of people looking for cheap, easy "uber" armor. Give him more business, and badly informed business like all smiths get, than he can tolerate. Let him see how fun it is to "corner the market". When he burns out and throws his hammer into the lake in WC, you can move back in as the "mean and nasty smith who makes money and customers happy" and he can go grump about how people were taking advantage of him.

But I'm a bit of a grouch today.

Agreed. If he is so desperate to take business away from you, help the poor unfortunate guy out.

Send business his way. ALOT of business. (And if some of those customers dont understand everything he needs, all the better). And then, as the person above stated, when he decides that annoying you and underselling you isn't worth the hassle of explaining ingrediants to morons, then come back and start smithing again. Take small vacation.

I wouldnt be nearly so quick to agree with you if he hadnt stated "I just had to do this because of Jessamyn".

**Glatius2** · 01-31-2003, 11:45 AM

I admit, sending those customers who are perhaps a bit more difficult to deal with his way would be kind of ironic justice. "Oh, you know I just don't have time to help you with all that. But I know someone who can, and would charge much less

."

01-31-2003, 11:59 AM

If the guy isn't rich... you would be doing him a big favor by sending him customers.

Even the most annoying ask every question they can think of customers.

He can make a couple hotkeys for ingredient lists, or whatever he gets asked a lot.

I for one, would love to be flooded with customers no matter the type. I'm a bit of an attention whore though

.

After months of being able to port, I still will never go anon because I love being pestered for ports, hehe.

**Jessamyn Sunweaver** · 01-31-2003, 12:09 PM

In reply to Groghe

Groghe: No, I never overbid people in order to keep them from GM'ing smithing. I offered a price for items that I needed, at that time, to fill orders that were sitting undone. It was a supply versus demand. People were in line and creating a demand, and there was a limited supply. So I bought what I could that I knew I would be needing.

Before the fine steel nerf I actually only purchased about 10 stacks of pelts/padding. I either farmed the rest myself of vendor rummaged them. At that time, I had 10k to my name, and that was through farming acrylia and selling the cloaks.

I have offered to help smiths in the past, reguardless of their race. I don't mind the competition in all honesty. The human market on our server is already dead in all reality. I did combines for months, ran myself up a wall answering tells, working day in and day out to get things together to make the armor to fill the demand. And now that demand has turned around and is flooding the market with all the old pieces.

I like to consider myself a kindhearted person, and I have many times gone out of my way to help someone get a piece or armor, or several, when they normally would not be able to.

No, it is not the market I am really upset about. It's about the personal attack on me, and how the person in question is going about it....

**Lling** · 01-31-2003, 12:21 PM

I totally understand how you feel about a lot of these issues, especially the stress.

I haven't had the "competition" issue from other smiths - to my knowledge. At the time of the infamous smithing nerf patch, the closest smith to me in skill was going away for two weeks and GAVE me all his saved components so that one of us would beat the patch. I got to 242 on my own. His gift allowed me to reach 247 very quickly thereafter. He is a class act, unlike the person with whom you have to deal.

It isn't always FUN "cornering the human smithing market" and I think only another human smith can really understand. Yes, we have the *biggest potential customer base* - which means that we also have the biggest pool of potential jerks. We spend much of our on-line time in a tell-hell that we created by being visible and successful. I would say that most of the time is it fun and fulfilling and rewarding, but there are times when it is just hell.

I have to agree with those who said to take a step back and let him deal with it. Keep in touch with your customers but do let people know that there is a new smith in town. Anyone who uses personal attacks to sell their skills deserves every annoyance - and I do view his words as a personal attack.

We've said it here before. People assume that you just hand them a blue diamond and out pops a bracer. Let him deal with it. Make a hotkey relying to tells, referring all questions to the new guy. Take some time to relax and just PLAY.

**Cigarskunk** · 01-31-2003, 12:34 PM

From what you've posted it sounds like this guy is border line griefing you - he wants your business and he's perfectly willing to ruin your game play to get it - he's trying to drive you out, not compete you out.

I'm in Frerin the Smith's camp - grief back - show this @#$% just exactly what it takes to be a high end smith.

First off, post on all of the boards and anywhere that he posts that you're skill level X so why waste your time with this guy when you are the known and reliable smith.

Also, do what Frerin the Smith suggested - send him all of your idiot and problem customers - you said that you've already got regulars, be sure to also send a tell to anyone asking stupid question in /ooc or /shout about high end smithing and suggest they ask this guy.

Start stock piling the bottle neck ingredients for smithing - if you see someone selling an ingredient, snatch it up if it's cheap enough - make this guy buy the super expensive stuff or farm it himself.

Use your imagination - Don Juan said that we should be happy when the universe gives us a great evil as an opponet because then we can take joy in the combat. In other words, you've got yourself someone who's such a jerk that you can and should lay into him with every dirty trick you can think of and not have to feel bad about it since the @#$% obviously deserves it - have fun, be creative and laugh every time you screw the @#$% over.

**Grozza** · 01-31-2003, 01:20 PM

And if you're feeling particularly evil, make up an alt of your own, and use said alt to ask him any number of stupid questions.

**Frerin the Smith** · 01-31-2003, 01:36 PM

My favorite begging attempt that I got last week from someone in the bazaar:

Them: How much for the BP

(I was auctioning a Brellium Platemail Breastplate in the bazaar)

Me: I have it set for 24kpp right now

Them: WTF?!?!?

Them: wod u take a trade?

(I have been looking for a Windblade on the cheap, a Belt of the Great Turtle and Nightmare Mephit blood, so yeah I can think about a trade)

Me: What do you have in mind?

Them: bronze BP a wolf collar and 200pp

Me: No, sorry, will need cash

Them: Com on, plz!?! I really need ti

Me: Why do you need it?

Them: cuz i can sale it for lot of plat

Me: Sorry

Them: $%$@ u! u guys can make more, i nedd plat and can't make that stuff

**Sylphan** · 01-31-2003, 02:27 PM

First of all, wow. You've had it good for a long time. Kinda makes me sorry I didn't take the split to Ayonae Ro when I had the chance. Except for the first few weeks after fine plate was introduced, and a few weeks around the time when the old cultural used blue diamonds, I've never gotten skill ups while making items people actually wanted. Profit for skillups sounds so sweet.

Second, welcome to the club. There are tons of people like that, who will ruin a market very quickly if they get what they want out of it. You should keep a few pieces of armor around to make sure his prices stay near the zero-profit level and wait for him to go away. And if you really want to get to 250, do some shadowscream. It's cheap.

Here's a recent story from my server. There were two or three active high elf smiths on my server before December. The new ones were undercutting my prices and out-advertising me but not by much, and competition was friendly at least. Dropping prices was reasonable when BDs became cheaper anyway. Then a new smith came along who was quite happy to undercut any price immediately, all the way down to 10k for a BD BP if necessary. We made some effort to sell off our stocks but there's simply no way to compete with that. The other smiths actually took it harder than me, since they were often auctioning in the same zone as him and they were more involved in the back-and-forth price wars. We stopped smithing and went back to leveling, took up pottery, or whatever, and let him have the market.

Along comes January and he's gone. But the rest of us have been successfully pushed out of the market. There's no more armor available. People are starting to send me tells or auction 'looking for GM high elf smith'. But they're not thrilled about paying 12k for something they saw at 5k awhile ago. I have to explain why there's none for sale anymore. It's going to be awhile before people come around... for now there's a lot of shrugs, people wanting to bring ingredients and only pay combine fees, and such. Soon I'll make another batch and put it back up at the old prices, see if it moves. BDs are actually slowly moving up in price again BTW, they're higher than they were last month.

There are other things to do. Tae Ew armor is going to become popular. The weapons and the chainmail are very good even by PoP standards. With the blood so rare, no one will want to settle for his one-in-three success rate. Also on my server sickles are a good market. While robes dropped from 5k to 1k over the last six months, with tons of competition, sickles have remained steady at 3k or so. I actually sell sickles for more now than I did six months ago. Don't even worry about the free sickle combines, the market for premade sickles in the bazaar is much better. I even sold a Black Acrylia Halberd the other day and didn't have to hunt for any of the supplies. Or... get three AA and take up jewelcraft. You'll want jewelcraft skill to make emblems for the PoP smithing.

**Vordok** · 01-31-2003, 04:39 PM

Mysophilia's eyes glaze over. "By Bertoxxulous' sores, anyone who can make 250 platinum profit per skill attempt is my new hero."

On a serious note, this really worries me, because I was planning on doing almost the exact same thing, except with old cultural. My plan (once I've gotten sufficent gear to get me to 255 with a geerlok) was to advertise as doing combines for some set price (as yet undecided) per sheet. The customer supplies the imbued gem, I supply everything else. Customer pays, success or failure.

Now, is this guy being a jerk? Somewhat. His attitude is a bit cavalier. Ok. He does sound like a jerk. But issues of character aside, the fact is, skilling up in smithing is tedious, and is a huge sink of both time and money. I applaud him for attempting to avoid both, and actually make a profit. Perhaps, given the value of the armor, he could be charging more per attempt. But that's for him to decide.

I don't want to be a jerk (don't want to, but I can't see how to avoid it), but forgive me if I don't feel any pity for you. If you skilled up before the May 8 patch (and you state that you've been the only active human smith on your server) then you have had almost a 9 month monopoly on human cultural. If you have not taken advantage of that to make money, then it is your own fault. EQ is a dynamic game--you can't expect people to stay where they are just to give you an easy time of it. Bertoxxulous forbid that someone else should want to become a grandmaster smith, and that they would try to avoid the worst aspects of farming to do so. Besides, as a 250 smith, you'll still be prefered for planar/Cazic-Thule combines, since the components are too hard to get to throw multiples of them away in hopes of getting a success.

I also have to say that the suggestions as to tormenting this guy simply because he's trying to improve his skill disgust me (and as a necromancer, that's not an easy thing to do). Be upset all you want. But at least have the human (or elven or whatever) decency not to intentionally send malicious customers his way or use an alt to /tell bomb him. Otherwise, if your chief complaint about him is that he's a jerk, well, congratulations, so are you now.

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