Announcement

**Morani** · 01-31-2003, 05:20 PM

It sounds to me like this person as it out for you PERSOANLLY. The market has little to with it now and this person may be more interested in getting to you than anything else. The questions are; do you want to get into that and what are you willing to lose to �beat him� if you DO get into it?

As I see it, you have three choices of action:
1) Ignore him and let things fall as they will.
2) Rise to the bait and war with him. AND, in doing so, reinforce everything he believes about you. (Doesn�t matter if he�s right or not; conflict does not breed understanding, it only furthers the believe of what is wrong about the other side.)
3) Try the diplomatic approach; see if you can understand why he�s doing this, what he wants and get him to understand why you�ve done what ever it is and what you want through talking about it.

#3 does not necessarily have a good outcome and its going to be the most work for you. If he want�s to be close-minded about it than that�s all there is and you are left with the other 2 choices. Even if he wants to be open-minded it�ll be work for you to show him where he misconstrued your motives. It may seem unfair to you but you are going to have to prove to him that he is wrong about you.

Ultimately, it�s up to you to do what you choose on this. Though, I would recommend that if you do decide to go with option 3 and talk it out that you do so on the public board so everyone can read it. From one of the above posts, it sounds like there are a group of people who are not in love with what they think you are doing. This is a good opportunity to �clear you name� publicly and maybe change the opinions of more than just this one person. Either way; what ever you do will be watched by �the other camp� and will communicate to them.

On the other hand, if I�m wrong about my guess that this is personal and he's just trying to "get under your skin" for his own enjoyment; I agree with the �send him your junk customers� consensus. And if that doesn�t do enough; advertise FOR him. Make everyone thing he�s your best friend and you�re just a great guy for helping him out. Then watch his frustration and your sales rise. Farm a dozen BD and give them to some really persistent people and tell them that he�s running a special sale: if the give him the BD and 250pp they�ll get a great piece of armor but he might act reluctant about it. That he�s only doing this for people who prove they really want it and would really appreciate it and he�s made a rule that once contacted; that person only has 1 DAY to prove it to him. Fail to mention the part about a 1 in 3 chance�.

Alternately; make a bunch of alt�s and place like 20 orders. When he tells you that he�ll need some time to get the components, tell him you�ll wait to trade your portion so you can protect your half and then when he DOES have them, back out at (optional, even nastier part) have the alt tell him that the BD is gone; �Gave it to Jessamyn with some cash and I got my armor.� OR, go through the trade and sell the armor and then wait for him to dig his hole before you public tell him you not only send him (insert list of �client�s� names here) but you GAVE them the BD to do the transaction.

�When someone pushes me in the real world, I push back.�

**Frerin the Smith** · 01-31-2003, 05:22 PM

If you have not taken advantage of that to make money, then it is your own fault.

In Psychology, this is known as "projection". The person in question here is not whining that they didn't make enough money, or that they won't make enough money. The profit they are getting is not the point.

also have to say that the suggestions as to tormenting this guy simply because he's trying to improve his skill disgust me

Again, not a clear understanding of the issue. Let's point out what the "new" smith was posting

*sure I'll fail a bit, but overall it's cheaper than someother human GM smithys out there ; )

*Sorry I know it's a month premature, but I had to do this when I saw jessyamens post.

This is not a "I need to skill up and this is the way I will do it" post. This is a "Jessamyn is screwing you all on prices for high end armor and I am here to save you from this horrible monopoly"

He made this personal and vindictive. And he did so out of jealousy plain and simple. My advice was to show him what it was like to be the only Human smith actively making armor on the server, like Jessamyn had to deal with.

You know, you can't go on raids because of tell hell, you can't do combines for casual friends because they will take advantage of you, you have to justify charging more than 1cp over cost because you are viewed as a "greedy rich smith", you have to deal with the "if I bring you a blue diamond can you make me a Breastplate?" and "If I bring you a stack of blue diamonds can you make me 3 Breastplates? How much should I sell them for when you make them?"

It's not all rolling in plat and cackling like a madman, in fact many, many BD able smiths do not advertise and will not make armor for anyone but good friends/guildmates. Why? Because it's a pain in the butt. And to have your reputation ruined by a jealous up and coming smith is salt in the wound.

**Vordok** · 01-31-2003, 08:04 PM

Argh. Spent 30 minutes writing up a response only to have my browser crash and lose everything.

Originally posted by Frerin the Smith

If you have not taken advantage of that to make money, then it is your own fault.

In Psychology, this is known as "projection". The person in question here is not whining that they didn't make enough money, or that they won't make enough money. The profit they are getting is not the point.

Originally posted by Jessamyn Sunweaver

I understand competition in the marketplace, but having it there just to completely undo the market for a race...is that truly right?

If it isn't about profit, then how can you complain about the market being ruined? If you only do it to make stuff for yourself, your friends, and your guild, then who cares what other people are selling things for? Perhaps you're concerned about the profit of other smiths, which is considerate, except that 1) this guy is one of those other smiths (and he evidently feels that it is in his interest to do this), 2) the smiths are also grandmasters, in which case they have had the opportunity to make money (assuming that's what they want to do), or 3) they are at or below the jerk, in which case they have recourse to his methods once they reach the appropriate skill.

I cannot see any valid critique of someone destroying the market if profit (yours or someone else's) is not a concern.

Originally posted by Frerin the Smith

also have to say that the suggestions as to tormenting this guy simply because he's trying to improve his skill disgust me

Again, not a clear understanding of the issue. Let's point out what the "new" smith was posting

*sure I'll fail a bit, but overall it's cheaper than someother human GM smithys out there ; )

*Sorry I know it's a month premature, but I had to do this when I saw jessyamens post.

This is not a "I need to skill up and this is the way I will do it" post. This is a "Jessamyn is screwing you all on prices for high end armor and I am here to save you from this horrible monopoly"

He made this personal and vindictive. And he did so out of jealousy plain and simple. My advice was to show him what it was like to be the only Human smith actively making armor on the server, like Jessamyn had to deal with.

I tried to break my argument up into two parts, 1) independent of character, is this guy's methodology wrong, and 2) if the guy is a trollhole (which I admitted he was), is it right to be a trollhole back. My mother always said, "Two wrongs don't make a right; if they did, Innoruk would be out of a job." Actively being malicious doesn't fix the problem, because now instead of one jerk we've got two.

Originally posted by Frerin the Smith

You know, you can't go on raids because of tell hell, you can't do combines for casual friends because they will take advantage of you, you have to justify charging more than 1cp over cost because you are viewed as a "greedy rich smith", you have to deal with the "if I bring you a blue diamond can you make me a Breastplate?" and "If I bring you a stack of blue diamonds can you make me 3 Breastplates? How much should I sell them for when you make them?"

I'm sure all that is true. However, it doesn't have anything directly to do with this guy. People are greedy. They were greedy before this guy; they'll be greedy after him. It's our job as businesswomen (and men) to squeeze every iota of consumer surplus out of the customer, because they're trying to do the same to us. Ahhh, capitalism. If it weren't mutually advantageous, no one would do it. And if someone wants you to make them something for free, you're perfectly within your rights to tell them no. Because it isn't advantageous to you.

Now there could be an argument made that the way this guy is going about getting skill ups is increasing the number of cheapskate customers who expect you to do things for little to no profit. However, you don't have to do it (especially since you're not in it for the money). If people keep asking, you can /ignore them. Yes it is annoying, but it (honest but stupid inquiries) comes with the territory. However, going around promulgating malicious tells does not come with the territory and is flat out wrong. And the suggestion of using an alt to place and then cancel orders is horrendous.

Originally posted by Frerin the Smith

It's not all rolling in plat and cackling like a madman, in fact many, many BD able smiths do not advertise and will not make armor for anyone but good friends/guildmates. Why? Because it's a pain in the butt. And to have your reputation ruined by a jealous up and coming smith is salt in the wound.

I never claimed that it was. But the points I was trying to make were that 1) he has a right to work on his skill in such ways as he sees fit (and kudos to him if he can make a profit) and 2) even if he is a jerk, being a jerk back solves no problems, and only lowers you to his level.

Let him find out what it is like. But it isn't necessary to compound the intrinsic annoyances with additional ones.

As for having your reputation ruined, I think you give him too much credit. Most people care more about the bottom line, and if your goods are competitively prices, they'll get sold. If you don't care about selling things, who cares if you have a reputation of being greedy--if you're not selling, it can't hurt you. And if you're worried about extra-market society, anyone who takes another person's word on you rather than meeting you and discovering what you're like for her or himself is someone you're probably better off not knowing.

Addendum: Every time I reread a post after I've submitted it, it comes across as more antagonistic than I intended. I'm sorry if this one does too. I'm simply trying to lay out my arguments, not jerk people around.

**Koneko Krystalpaw** · 01-31-2003, 08:18 PM

Hey Jessamyn,
I've had a similar experience to yourself, and alot of the smiths who posted above. When I entered the cultural market, there was already several smiths who had been in the market for months. So I was used to not being the only smith on the block. However, up until decemberish the smithing community on my server was helpful, considerate and we all tended to have our own niche markets and peacefully co-exist. Then along came a smith who dropped the prices by nearly 5k a day until last I saw, bp were going for 14k. What I can tell you is what is likely to happen if you price match, which is what I did. This guy will drop the market into oblivion, he seems to be taking more pleasure in hurting the market than in smithing. I tried to price match as much as I could, figuring that I would keep smithing for the public market as long as i still felt it was worth my time and the effort involved for both my husband and I. It did get to a point for me, where I no longer felt the effort and commitment to gathering and subcombining were worth it. So I stopped smithing for strangers, and returned to my original vocation of smithing for friends and guildmates only. At this time I took a few months off from eq due to graduating college and other rl stuff. When I returned, the thrill of undercutting has apparently worn off. There is little mithril in the market, and the prices have stabalized somewhat due to the demand.

So my advice is this: For the moment, focus your efforts on supplying already made pieces to the market. Let this guy corner the combines market. With any luck, you'll both find your own place in the market. Keep smithing, if the pieces sit for awhile, then let them sit, the market will recover eventually. Do not price cut or match to anything lower than what you are comfortable with in return for your work. As long as you keep matching his price, he will likely be taking pleasure in lowering it further. So be careful where you decide to stop matching, this will likely set the tone for the market's recovery. You decide if it is worth your time to continue, don't let him make your decision for you.

**Lling** · 01-31-2003, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by Frerin the Smith

You know, you can't go on raids because of tell hell, you can't do combines for casual friends because they will take advantage of you, you have to justify charging more than 1cp over cost because you are viewed as a "greedy rich smith", you have to deal with the "if I bring you a blue diamond can you make me a Breastplate?" and "If I bring you a stack of blue diamonds can you make me 3 Breastplates? How much should I sell them for when you make them?"

It's not all rolling in plat and cackling like a madman, in fact many, many BD able smiths do not advertise and will not make armor for anyone but good friends/guildmates. Why? Because it's a pain in the butt. And to have your reputation ruined by a jealous up and coming smith is salt in the wound.

Exactly

**Frerin the Smith** · 01-31-2003, 09:56 PM

Perhaps you're concerned about the profit of other smiths, which is considerate, except that 1) this guy is one of those other smiths (and he evidently feels that it is in his interest to do this), 2) the smiths are also grandmasters, in which case they have had the opportunity to make money (assuming that's what they want to do), or 3) they are at or below the jerk, in which case they have recourse to his methods once they reach the appropriate skill.

I want to keep it in context, but let me re-quote the relevent portion.

3) they are at or below the jerk, in which case they have recourse to his methods once they reach the appropriate skill.

I submit that they will not have the same recourse for the simple reason that he has already destroyed the market.

If he is making attempts at 250pp per shot, how much further down can they go? If he makes 800 pieces of armor that go into the market place, the younger smiths have to deal with a market heavier by 800 pieces. If he sets the price of those pieces at material costx3 plus 250pp, the younger smiths must then deal with that as the perceived price. What recourse does the younger smiths have at that point? Materials plus 100pp per combine? How about giving customers 50pp if they let you try to combine armor for them?

Believe it or not, this community wants to keep smithing competitive AND profitable, not only for those of us already there but for devotees of the forge who are yet to feel the call of the bellows. Destroying the market for vendetta or malice is not only a personal problem between the various parties, but is also a problem for the smithing economy on that server.

**Morani** · 02-01-2003, 10:59 AM

Vordok, 95% of my post was about how to resolve the issue and have something positive for at least ONE side come out of it. You focused on the 5% that was not and totally ignored the remainder. Just a guess here, but that might very well have something to do with you post coming across more antagonistic that you intend. None-the-less, you stated that was not your intent. Very well, addendum noted and reciprocated.

To be very blunt here, I do not think you understand how the tradeskill community really works in most of EQ. On top of that, I think you undervalue the power of trash talking about someone else in a non-direct interaction set up like an on-line game. A GM tradeskiller�s MOST important asset/attribute when making money is his/her reputation. In game, there is NO way to advertise other than spamming channels and word of mouth. In some other games, you can inspect an item and it will SAY who crafted it. Then it�s an easy thing to send a tell to that person. In EQ the ONLY way for a player to here about a tradeskiller is to spam and hope for the best or to hear about someone from someone else. Jessamyn may be the only GM in her market but I would bet all the plat my main has to odds that 90% of her market does not KNOW she�s the only one. (Warning, my main is a Ranger and we all know how broke they are historically).

ALL it takes is one person to say she�s a greedy jerk ONCE and that prospective customer is going to look for someone else because that customer THINKS there are others out there. Even if that prospective customer is really good at seeing all sides on an issue, he or she is not likely to buy because they �don�t want to take a chance�. Your argument for why Jessamyn is not hurt by a hit to the reputation is based on the idea of Bazaar type sales and in THAT model it works. BUT, a GM with a good and wide spread reputation will make equal if not more money doing �custom� orders than being a Toon. Do you know how you can tell a GM who makes his/her reputation a big part of the business? Look for him or her in the bazaar in trader mode. A tradeskiller that does not care about the skilling character�s rep will have a sales Toon and not be selling the goods with the tradeskill character. (Not 100% true but a good �general rule�)

You also are looking at things from ONLY a $$$$ point of view. Do you know how much hard work it takes to get to GM in ANY tradeskill? (I have no idea what your experience in this is.) How about Smithing? I�ll lay it out for myself; I�m trying to GM fletching but I have NO intention of ever TRYING smithing because I�m neither INSANE or obsessive �compulsive�

I do however have a large understand of the sheer amount of work that goes into GMing smithcraft. Again, to be very blunt, if I went through that I�d want people to have respect for me and my hard work. Ultimately, THAT part is what drives the most complaints from GM�s about customers; that customers have no idea how much work goes into getting to where they are and doing what they do. It doesn�t matter whether this is a game or not, hard work is hard work and there are real people behind every PC. It hurts to be slapped in the face over your hard work and it hurts even more when people you don�t even know or have never even met (even �in game�) are disgusted with you because of what they THINK they know about you or your craft.

Originally posted by �Jessamyn�

smithing has been my only passion since EQ has slowly worn on me

That statement alone is enough to see that money is not the issue for her. It�s the accomplishment and the appreciation of the accomplishment that make this enjoyable for her.

Originally posted by �Vordok�

And the suggestion of using an alt to place and then cancel orders is horrendous.

Yep, you are right; it is foul, nasty, vicious, rude, etc. I understand that the point you are making is the �golden rule� and that you think there are better courses of action. Agreed. That was not the only option I listed. If it were I in Jessamyn�s place, then I would go though the process of trying to prove that I�m a great person. Her actions are hers to decide though so I�ll not tell her what to do. Something to consider; that I mentioned it as food for thought. To be honest, I�m surprised I didn�t get MORE of a reaction to that (and from more than just you) since I can�t think of a nastier thing to do to a tradeskiller. Let me submit this to you though as a counterpoint; milking a customer for ever copper you can squeeze out of them is JUST as contrary to the golden rule as what I suggested. It leaves the same bad taste in my mouth.

Vordok, you have spoke out about what you think should NOT be done, I challenge you give some suggestions about what SHOULD be done.

/em steps down from her soapbox and hands it to Vordok.

**Vordok** · 02-01-2003, 01:56 PM

/em steps out of the character of Mysophilia, the archcapitalist.

Originally posted by Morani

Vordok, 95% of my post was about how to resolve the issue and have something positive for at least ONE side come out of it. You focused on the 5% that was not and totally ignored the remainder. Just a guess here, but that might very well have something to do with you post coming across more antagonistic that you intend. None-the-less, you stated that was not your intent. Very well, addendum noted and reciprocated.

I just wanted to note that it was not my intention to talk about how to resolve the issue. The two issues I was addressing were whether or not the methodology the person had chosen to skill up was wrong (dealing with the issue of "this guy is bad because he is ruining my profit") and some of the choices that had been suggested with treating him (dealing with the issue of "this guy is bad because he is a jerk").

Originally posted by Morani

To be very blunt here, I do not think you understand how the tradeskill community really works in most of EQ. On top of that, I think you undervalue the power of trash talking about someone else in a non-direct interaction set up like an on-line game. A GM tradeskiller�s MOST important asset/attribute when making money is his/her reputation. In game, there is NO way to advertise other than spamming channels and word of mouth. In some other games, you can inspect an item and it will SAY who crafted it. Then it�s an easy thing to send a tell to that person. In EQ the ONLY way for a player to here about a tradeskiller is to spam and hope for the best or to hear about someone from someone else. Jessamyn may be the only GM in her market but I would bet all the plat my main has to odds that 90% of her market does not KNOW she�s the only one. (Warning, my main is a Ranger and we all know how broke they are historically).

ALL it takes is one person to say she�s a greedy jerk ONCE and that prospective customer is going to look for someone else because that customer THINKS there are others out there. Even if that prospective customer is really good at seeing all sides on an issue, he or she is not likely to buy because they "don�t want to take a chance". Your argument for why Jessamyn is not hurt by a hit to the reputation is based on the idea of Bazaar type sales and in THAT model it works. BUT, a GM with a good and wide spread reputation will make equal if not more money doing "custom" orders than being a Toon. Do you know how you can tell a GM who makes his/her reputation a big part of the business? Look for him or her in the bazaar in trader mode. A tradeskiller that does not care about the skilling character�s rep will have a sales Toon and not be selling the goods with the tradeskill character. (Not 100% true but a good "general rule")

You are possibly quite right about my not understanding how the tradeskill community works. I am something of a lone wolf. I do not belong to any guild. However, I do understand how the free market works. It's all very well for someone to think that there is someone out there who is a cheaper GM. However, if there isn't, there isn't going to be a supply of cheap smithed armor. As such, the person will eventually be driven to buy from the "greedy" smith if they want the armor. They may decide to purchase dropped armor (or go after quested armor), but they are making the decision that it is cheaper (in either time or money) to get these than pay the smith their going rate.

It doesn't matter whether or not she has a bazaar toon: if she is the only one performing the combines, people will have to come to her--whether that is by purchasing off of a toon or by placing custom orders. I did try to address the extra-market issues that someone might refuse to group with her because they think that she's an evil person, but as I said, these kind of prejudgmental people are probably the ones you can do without (though I will admit that this is probably the point I'm on the shakiest ground--it's more an appeal to character).

Originally posted by Morani

You also are looking at things from ONLY a $$$$ point of view. Do you know how much hard work it takes to get to GM in ANY tradeskill? (I have no idea what your experience in this is.) How about Smithing? I�ll lay it out for myself; I�m trying to GM fletching but I have NO intention of ever TRYING smithing because I�m neither INSANE or obsessive "compulsive"

I do however have a large understand of the sheer amount of work that goes into GMing smithcraft. Again, to be very blunt, if I went through that I�d want people to have respect for me and my hard work. Ultimately, THAT part is what drives the most complaints from GM�s about customers; that customers have no idea how much work goes into getting to where they are and doing what they do. It doesn�t matter whether this is a game or not, hard work is hard work and there are real people behind every PC. It hurts to be slapped in the face over your hard work and it hurts even more when people you don�t even know or have never even met (even "in game") are disgusted with you because of what they THINK they know about you or your craft.

I was hoping to avoid a "my smithing hammer is bigger than yours" scene, but here it goes:

I've been playing since a week after EQ came out. I have three 188 smiths (reached post May 8, though they got into the 100s prior). I have three 158 tailors, one prior to the tailoring-made-easier patch, two prior to the less-mana-intensive-vials patch. I have a grandmaster baker, another at 199, and a third in the 170s. I have a grandmaster brewer and another at 180. I have a jeweler at 209, and potters at 201 (working on it now) and 188.

I plan on grandmastering smithing. This is part of the reason I'm posting on this thread, because as I mentioned in my first post, I was thinking of doing something similar to this fellow to get skill ups. Having read this thread, I am now worried about being harrased in game for doing so.

As to money, my main, Mysophilia, in addition to being a capitalist, is a pacifist. What does that mean? She refuses to kill any intelligent living creature (excepting gnolls, but really, they can hardly be considered intelligent). I will not camp hill giants for platinum. I will camp other mobs for phat lewt.

This is a roleplaying choice. I do not expect any sympathy on your part for the fact that I have made the game harder on myself. What this does mean though is that I earn almost all of my money (and that is not an exaggeration) through tradeskills. If the market is ruined, then I don't have any source of income. However, I realize that there are reasons outside of the game for people to sell things cheaply, and as much as it may impact me personally, I realize there are valid reasons for doing it. The person who sells his items at barely above cost may have severe restraints on his free time--therefore it is better for him to sell quick so that he can get back to more tradeskilling or adventuring. I do not begrudge someone playing the game to the best of their abilities and resources (in or out of game), so long as they do not break the rules (such as killstealing, training on you, and harrassing you).

As for other people's opinions on the craft...

Originally posted by Morani

Originally posted by Jessamyn

smithing has been my only passion since EQ has slowly worn on me

That statement alone is enough to see that money is not the issue for her. It�s the accomplishment and the appreciation of the accomplishment that make this enjoyable for her.

No one else can take away your accomplishment. The fact that they don't understand the effort does not undo the achievement. If someone else thinks it is easy grandmastering a tradeskill, I am more than willing to concede that that is their opinion (not that they are correct in it), and if they want, they should go ahead and prove how easy it is, at which point they should realize their error.

However, if you're basing your self worth on what some yahoo you've never met thinks of you (or your skill), then I suggest that you re-evaluate your yardstick.

Originally posted by Morani

Originally posted by Vordok

And the suggestion of using an alt to place and then cancel orders is horrendous.

Yep, you are right; it is foul, nasty, vicious, rude, etc. I understand that the point you are making is the "golden rule" and that you think there are better courses of action. Agreed. That was not the only option I listed. If it were I in Jessamyn�s place, then I would go though the process of trying to prove that I�m a great person. Her actions are hers to decide though so I�ll not tell her what to do. Something to consider; that I mentioned it as food for thought. To be honest, I�m surprised I didn�t get MORE of a reaction to that (and from more than just you) since I can�t think of a nastier thing to do to a tradeskiller. Let me submit this to you though as a counterpoint; milking a customer for ever copper you can squeeze out of them is JUST as contrary to the golden rule as what I suggested. It leaves the same bad taste in my mouth.

I wasn't approaching it as the "golden rule" (though Mysophilia does love gold), but more as "by the rules." When I'm involved in a transaction, I know that (in general) the person I'm buying from is trying to get as much money from me as he or she can, and that he or she knows that I'm trying to get the item for as little as possible. There may be other factors, such as the seller is trying to clear up inventory, so is willing to sell it cheaper than he normally would, and that the buyer is scheduled to go on a raid in 30 minutes, and is willing to pay more than normal so that she can get it before then. However, both sides understand what the other side is doing, so there is no "cheating" going on.

However, personally harrassing someone, or cancelling out of orders that the other side believes have been placed in good faith is something that I consider "breaking the rules," and something that I find disturbing, to the point that I am beginning to worry about reprisals the next time I try to sell anything that isn't at a price that a self-appointed bazaar watchdog feels is correct.

Originally posted by Morani

Vordok, you have spoke out about what you think should NOT be done, I challenge you give some suggestions about what SHOULD be done.

/em steps down from her soapbox and hands it to Vordok.

As I mentioned above, that wasn't my intention. Nonetheless, here is my suggestion: do nothing.

1. If it is not about the profit, you lose nothing, because you aren't interested in those sales anyway.
2. If it is about the profit, recognize that the skill up path has in-game externalities (people will make things cheaper than market rate if they can increase their skill) and that there are extra-game externalities as well (such as having to share the computer with a spouse or sibling, or having a dialup connection and being unable to leave a bazaar toon on all day or night) that cause people to choose time over money. Given the continual presence of undercutter posts on Primal Scream, I don't suspect that many people will find this a satisfactory answer.
2a. You can attempt to talk with the person, to get them to adjust the price to something you find more reasonable. However, you need to keep in mind the reasons mentioned above, and they may not agree with you.
2b. You can attempt to price your goods competitively, and accept a lower profit margin, assuming you can still make a profit.
3. If it is about him being a jerk, ignore him, because by playing dirty, you have become the very thing you hate.

**Cigarskunk** · 02-01-2003, 03:38 PM

Them: Com on, plz!?! I really need ti

Me: Why do you need it?

Them: cuz i can sale it for lot of plat

ROTFLMAO

Wow! Give this person the Totally and Utterly Fruckin Clueless Award!

**xaanru** · 02-03-2003, 04:35 PM

The part everyone seems to be missing is

1) the guy is a 200 skill smith

2) He thinks 215 is an easy waltz away (1 month), well mabye if you get lucky on RNG. I know of smiths with several hundred attempts and no skillups since the patch. (Personally, I had a 347 combine hell level).

3) The guy things BD cultural is a 1 in three success rate at 215. Unless he has a 15% smithing mod item she forgot to mention, this just AIN'T gonna happen. Maybe 1 in 5, on a good run. Look on the posts reporting BD sucess rates, and the smiths with 250+ modifed skill are reporting runs as bad is zero of 8, and consider 2 of 4 an excellent run.

My recommendation, is keep making armor for anyone who is willing to work with your deal, and if they don't want to, tell them about this guy. Then point out that he's not very likely to succeed. After they blow through a stack of blue diamonds, and MAYBE end up with one bracer to show for it, they'll reconsider, and it will be his rep that gets killed. twisted

**Glatius2** · 02-03-2003, 04:55 PM

3) The guy things BD cultural is a 1 in three success rate at 215. Unless he has a 15% smithing mod item she forgot to mention, this just AIN'T gonna happen. Maybe 1 in 5, on a good run. Look on the posts reporting BD sucess rates, and the smiths with 250+ modifed skill are reporting runs as bad is zero of 8, and consider 2 of 4 an excellent run.

Given my personal experience, I have found that for a skill level of 200-209 with a gearlok you'll succeed about 1 in 10 combines. This is from a fairly large volume of mistletoe cutting sickles (I did somewhere in the neighborhood of 90 combines in that skill range on sickles). Once you get to 210 with a gearlok the failure rate drops pretty significantly. I actually succeed about one out of every 3 or 4 combines. I did something like 30ish barbarian cultural plate not long ago and this rate held. I've also done around 60ish mistle cutting sickles since getting to 210 and this rate held. And I did 12 combines on artificers chain a week ago and got 3 successes.

If you're willing to do a large volume, you can get successes. However, how many customers really want to hand you enough components for 10-15 combines just be sure they get at least one success with a chance for more?

**Tanaysa** · 02-03-2003, 11:06 PM

hmm

I am a brewer not a smith. I say that first in case people decide that I had no right to speak <write?> because my smithing is a mere 118 *blush* if you feel that way please ignore the rest of this post.

However, if I were in the market for plate, which as a Druid I am not

, but I would NOT go to this person . Frankly speaking in 2 years I have never played a plate class, I do not play on Jessamyans<sp> server and as a GM brewer, cannot truly sympathize..

But I am not responding as a tradeskiller, but as a CONSUMER.

And frankly speaking, this guy sounds like a creep. Not cause of the combines and such, but simply because he was personal in his ad and it came off, to me when I read it, that he was like Hey I can skill up and you dont have to deal with her! We all win!

Frankly, I got better things to spend my virtual money on

I would rather wait and not deal with someone with that kind of attitude. And the nice thing is, it is a LUXURY! I dont have to go without food for my kid cause of a principle! I just would have to wait til I had enough money to buy from another smith, and I am sorry Miss Jess, maybe it wouldnt be you, but I will tell you, it certainly wouldnt be him

**Morani** · 02-04-2003, 07:00 PM

First of all Vordok, I�d like to say that it�s nice to have a discussion like this with someone (especially in primal scream) and NOT get flamed. Thank you for the civility and I hope I come across the same way.

OK, the first thing that hits me from you last post is that one of us is talking apples and the other oranges. Well of COURSE we�re not in agreement.

I took your first post to be read as a form of advice on how to resolve the situation. That sorta changes things. <Blush> Never the less, I�m glad I spoke up because it led to clarification.