mid tier raider

[Wyvernwill]

I understand that. However, if you assume that each group (true casual, high-end casuals, mid-tier raiders, high-end raiders) has a similar view (that they don't care about the other groups), then you have to do what is best for the majority.

True casuals are unaffected. They can't afford the cultural, and they can't get the augs.

Higher-end casuals are affected positively. They can't get the augs, but the armor gets better.

Mid-tier raiders are affected negatively. Their armor gets nothing-to-slight-boost, while their aug gets nerfed. End result is less than what they have (though I doubt it would be a major change.)

High-end raiders are mostly unaffected (except that they get to maintain a larger gap...which is considered a boon to some of them.)

I don't know the percentages, population-wise, but I am pretty sure that mid-tier raiders are a minority. Since every other group is either unaffected or positively affected, it only makes sense.

True Casuals would need to be entirely removed by your definitions. If they can't afford the cultural and can not obtain it... why would it be part of their balance?

Ok, let's look at "high-end casuals". They could be negatively affected. I have yet to see if it is or is not possible for them to obtain Bazu augs, if changes go in for Discordant or Type 12 group drops in Crystallos are obtainable, they are possibly negatively affected.

Mid-Tier raiders are negatively affected two fold.
1) Cultural Armor + Last Blood being nerfed would massively hit anyone whom put effort into it.
2) A nerf to the Last Blood cultural doesn't do anything about the obtainable group dropped armor + steam core + gyro core armor. That alone does the exact same thing as Cultural, it just doesn't get as high as cultural/last blood (the comparison in bps for cleric is 159ac 540hp 550mana vs 175ac 620hp/mana.)

As for high end... I never knew Leaderboards were so sacred to EQ.

In the end, the position you don't understand about Mid Tier raiding is those that are in demi, broke into DK, broke into AG/FC. If you look at Tier 3 drops, which are much easier obtained than anything raid wise in AG/FC or Demi, you can easily pick up 400+ hp/mana gear. If you move into Tier 4, you can break 500+ without even factoring in augs or powersources.

But again, why would a casual or high end casual care it doesn't impact your gameplay any so it's a /gof to all mid-tier raiders as far as you're concerned eh?

In the end, people are putting on blinders and only seeing one tree as the entire forest. It's a shame that people are blind to the fact that at the group level, people can obtain anywhere from 310 - 550+hp gear, yet it's a travesty that cultural is at most 620hps. I don't understand the reasoning behind 2 group drops being better than 1 raid drop.

[Woland]

Wyvernwill,

Cultural armor with LBs (Bazus) is out of whack. No serious person can claim that this is how things in EQ should work or have ever worked before. It is no accident that you have everyone switching out whatever they had to use old LBs. This is a gift for a few and not anything that gives boost across the board.

This needs to be toned down, 100 HP/Mana is not too much, it needs to be at least reasonable for people raiding TSS to consider upgrading Seal or armor for foci.

You have been vocal on all boards arguing that you should have this because.....bunch of BS arguments.

[Twistagain]

But again, why would a casual or high end casual care it doesn't impact your gameplay any so it's a /gof to all mid-tier raiders as far as you're concerned eh?

It does affect me. Because my armor is getting better and mid-tiers are crying, trying to get it to not be. Why is that different than what happened to you?

[Zolina]

I imagine they'll reduce the Bazu stats by the same amount as they reduce the Last Blood stats, so that Elaborate + Eminent + Bazu has the same stats before and after the change.

[wreaking]

Posted by Ngreth on the EQlive forums. Don't assume that they ARE going to nerf them. All is still being discussed.

I just want to let people know that we are paying attention to the feedback we are getting from all sides.

While we fully understand that you want numbers and direct answers now, we really believe it will be a bad idea to give out something we are still working on. We are still debating what to do. They range through many of the ideas we have seen on these and other forums, including the "do nothing" idea. We are considering them all. It will just create more bad feelings if we give stats and then change them, even if we say they are not final stats.

When we have something more concrete that we are ready for additional more specific feedback on, we will be sharing it.

[Angelsyn]

I think the real problem is, and always has been, that the jump in stats from Elaborate+Eminent to Elegant+Sublime was so huge.

But, dropping the stats on existing Exalted & Sublime Augs (and Elegant armour AC), would be an even bigger mistake.

However, it was stated (by the Devs) that the gap between Raiders and Non-Raiders had become much too large... and the newest Cultural gear (and JC stuff) was intended to reduce that gap.

If you want to claim that Elegant+Sublime+Last Blood is so close to Raid-level stuff... prove it. Get two Warriors... one with Soltaris gear (and even a moderate power source) and one with Elegant+Sublime+Last Blood gear and have them stand toe-to-toe in a "duel". Be sure that the Soltaris Warrior has Soltaris level non-visible gear, and the Tradeskill Warrior has nothing better than PoBlood level non-visible gear.

The Soltaris gear-level Warrior will win, pretty-much every time. Switch the weapons to gear-level appropriate weapons and the Soltaris gear-level Warrior will wipe the floor with the Tradeskill Warrior.

[Woland]

Angelsyn,

How would you feel about a Tradeskill recepie that makes an item with +100 mod to any particular tradeskill? Would you say that would be unbalancing?

Wouldn't it be nice to have everyone be max tradeskills?

I imagine you would say that would make all the effort you put in your TSes meaningless, it would devalue it.

I am a raider, why do you feel it is ok to devalue my accomplishments?

[Angelsyn]

Angelsyn,

How would you feel about a Tradeskill recepie that makes an item with +100 mod to any particular tradeskill? Would you say that would be unbalancing?

Wouldn't it be nice to have everyone be max tradeskills?

I imagine you would say that would make all the effort you put in your TSes meaningless, it would devalue it.

I am a raider, why do you feel it is ok to devalue my accomplishments?

Uh... what?

I pointed out that, yes, the jump in stats/ac/hp from Elaborate+Eminent to Elegant+Sublime was too large.

I pointed out that the Devs said that the gap between raiders and non-raiders had gotten too large.

I also pointed out (very accurately) that a Warrior in high-end Raid gear is going to stomp all over someone mid-range Raid gear (Last Blood Augs).

I never said that raid stuff should be weakened, reduced or otherwise devalued. In fact, I'm my solution would have been to make Elegant+Sublime weaker and make the Augs above Last Blood stronger.

But, it's too late for that. Too many people who don't and won't have Bazu/Last Blood/whatever Augs would be slammed by adjusting the Elegant+Sublime combo down.

To get a Last Blood Aug, you have to be a Raider... You have to be a Mid-Tier Raider at least. I don't think Last Blood Augs should be weakened... even though my own gear on my own characters would be improved. After all, I still wear Elaborate+Eminent. Heck, I'll probably pull my Cleric's Moonglade Boots out of the bank instead of keeping the (currently better) boots I have now.

[wreaking]

Well honestly group gear at level 80 is at or near Solteris gear. BUT, 80 level raid gear is 1 and 1/2 times the hp on that.

Level 75 - Solteris was king for (some) raiders, some lagged behind with TSS raids or worse, TBS group gear was king for (some) groupers, some lagged behind with TSS items or worse.

Everquest is about constant growth, you can't rest on your past achievements. At 70 I could group gear better than some time gear. Nothing wrong with group game and raid game advancing each time and different levels of each. Hard core raiders/groupers will have better gear than casual raiders/groupers. Sometimes hardcore groupers have better gear than casual raiders. Nothing wrong with that, just different paths each take to improve their character.

Don't use the argument that Tradeskill gear = or > Solteris gear (8 slots). If the level 75 set is > Soteris then maybe it needs tweaking. Groupable gear is supposed to have a huge jump. If anything needs tweaking it is the hp from Demi/DK/TSS/Solteris gear to move more inline with where they see progression now, but please tweak the group gear also. Group weapons, shields and AC in general (now that AC means something) while you are at it.

The gap had to move closer for group content to be fun and challenging and offer progression to all styles and levels. I like where SoF headed. I just think a few tweaks are needed on the group gear (non tradeskill). WRU group slot 12 seals? If they had not had such a high hp value on symbols and put it on the group seals then there would be less of an argument.

On the same token of "past achievements" one could argue this...
Why should people who raided last bloods + tradeskill gear have less hit points than group gear tradeskilled with group seal, or the quested 80 SoF tier 4 gear? If SoF Tier 4 = Solt level hp = tradeskill + group seal then it is natural that a raid seal whether Bazu, LB, or whatever should be stronger right?

I say leave tradeskill armor and previous slot 12 raid seals alone, give groupers a slot 12 seal that moves them at the Tier 4 level, maybe one for Tier 3 level also...quested of course or require tradeskill drops. Or you could require a no drop "solution" that has to be combined with a tradeskill stone to make the group symbol. That makes people have to progress to tier 3 or 4 and not just buy it.

[Archus]

Angelsyn,

How would you feel about a Tradeskill recepie that makes an item with +100 mod to any particular tradeskill? Would you say that would be unbalancing?

Wouldn't it be nice to have everyone be max tradeskills?

I imagine you would say that would make all the effort you put in your TSes meaningless, it would devalue it.

I am a raider, why do you feel it is ok to devalue my accomplishments?

How sad for you that the gear of others devalues your accomplishments. There is now groupable gear better than my Anguish gear. I guess I should feel that my time spent learning the events and beating the bosses was less valuable and less enjoyable now. Mudflation happens. Get over it and get over yourself. Your accomplishments in beating TSS or Solteris 7 or wherever you are in progression are not diminished in any way by the gear others are getting. Unless you ... do not actually enjoy the thrill of beating new content with 53 of your fellow guildies, then your accomplishments remain intact and undiminished. In fact, I feel they are more impressive because (I assume) you did them at level 75 with lesser gear than those following you will defeat them with.

[Woland]

Two arguments that make little sense are:

SoF group gear > TSS raid gear and = Solteris gear, this is not true, there is almost nothing you loot in AG/FC raid instances that you want to replace in Crystallos. You may say a piece here or there is better to add to your raid gear but Crystallos geared player is not going to come anywhere near a TSS raid geared player in anything but HP/Mana. Solteris gear is way better than either.

New Cultural is level 80 armor and therefor should be > than any 75 armor. This is a silly argument that Ngreth fell for. I would agree if you could not use anything but 80 seal in it. This however does not hold true if you stick a 70 seal into type 12 aug slot. With LB, New Cultural is no longer level 80 armor. There is something wrong when you have to even compare this with Solteris gear. This is a zone that those still raiding Demi may not be able to beat for 2 years. Solteris BP is available only to those that beat Solteris and to have New Cultural + LB even compared to it is sign of trouble.

The best solution may be a charm type situation for Type 12 augs, if you use 70 or 75 seal in level 80 armor it loses part of it's stats.

[wreaking]

If hp/mana is not that important as you say in your argument ...

You may say a piece here or there is better to add to your raid gear but Crystallos geared player is not going to come anywhere near a TSS raid geared player in anything but HP/Mana. Solteris gear is way better than either.

then why is 80 cultural + LB a threat to you just because it has a few more hp than Solt BP? Would you give up your Solt BP for one?

Also if you are saying it will take a demi raider 2 years to beat Solt then by all means why deny him/her this BP to speed up the progression a little.

The Tier 4 group BP for a warrior 565 hp + slot 15 aug puts it a good 100-150hp above a Solt BP with power source and purity aug. Not to mention the heroic stamina adds 10 hp per. Level 80 and SoF is a new game. New rules. As long as the cultural + LB does not exceed the new Tier 4 group armor powersourced and purity aug'd then why should it be a big deal? It sure won't matter to casters due to the outdated foci. The only ones arguing is mele/tanks.

[Wyvernwill]

So let me get this straight... a groupable 159ac 540hp/550mana Bp from the group game is not better than than the TSS bp for clerics... yet a 175ac 620hem bp is better than Solteris bp? How does that work?

Simply put, Eron's Jewelry reward is 30/35ac 450/470 or vice versa depending on classes with Imp Dodge V and it doesn't require raiding, and that's not on par/better than TSS raid gear?

You can attempt to discredit my arguements using my gear as fuel, you can attempt to discredit me by attacking motives, but it doesn't change the facts that I point out. If you can't understand the balance issues that group gear up to Tier 4 crystallos has caused, what makes you any judge of gear within the cultural range either?

Twist, contrary to my statements, I don't want anything nerfed and I would rather cultural be left purely alone because for cultural to be nerfed and the rest of group content not to be, is an insult. They are both extremely powerful and AS DESIGNED. I do not care what casuals wear, but I will not let glaring lies about cultural get thrown around without refuting them. Fact of the matter is that Group gear (that requires absolutely no raiding), is breaking over 500hem with level 80 focus effects. For a Tier 3 (of which the group dropped armor is still better than cultural) plus a raid drop to be worse than Tier 4 group gear is a joke.

Woland, I recommend looking a bit deeper into gear. What I post is fact, wether or not you want to acknowledge it.

You, and others, argue that a 175ac 620hem BP with an anguish level focus is more powerful than Solteris, but yet 159ac 540hem+ Bp is not better than TSS nor encroaching on Solteris even though it also has current level 80 focus effects. This is why I will vehemently stand against you and anyone else. Your arguments are biased and one sided and you ignore the facts of other group obtainable gear because of your absolute hatred for Cultural.

Once again, you prove that your idea of Balance and RVR is blindly limited to 1 thing, Cultural. You couldn't care less about the fact that Tier 2 dropped loot is 300+ and infusible, Tier 3 loot is 400+ and infusible, and Tier 4 loot is 500+ and infusible.

[dendail]

mid tier raider

this is what my only 3 pieces of cultral look like
elgant daybreaker sleeves
ac 96
hp650
slot 1 geothemal pumice
slot 2 sublime symbol
slot 3 bazu seal of dodge

elegant daybreaker gloves
ac120
hp 735
slot 1 jonas dagmire skeleton hand
slot 2 sublime glove symbol
slot 3 last blodd of cutpurce

elaborante daybreaker armband
ac67
hp 515
slot 1 fabled rockhopper spirit fetish
slot2 exalted wrist symbol of growth
slot3 bazu seal of ferocity

hard to make any more because of the stupid drop rate, will this be nerfed because i can't get tss seals the guild is not geared well enough to kill mobs to get those drops and i can't get higher then beza in grouping we pay for 5 accounts at the moment should we lose out going to better zones because high end geared people complain even if you get a drop you still have to make the item which isn't easy seeing a 300 smither and tailorer with trophey in both failed 3 times to make a boot symbol of growth

[Anterouk]

Given the fact that its the top lvl ass hats who have shouted their mouths off moaning that their leaderboard for HP/AC is being impinged upon by `casuals` using Bazu/LB Augs, the same LB/Bazu augs that enabled them to beat POR/TSS/TBS, I propose that all gear from the last 3+SOF expansions be wiped so these raiders can try and beat these expansions again without the benfit of the over inflated LB/Bazu augs that they are sooooo happy to now compain about.