mid tier raider

[Aaneras]

And this is the sticking point. "Joe Casual" doesn't care how fast or how long it takes you to get geared up to do Solteris and/or SoF. Wanna know why? Because the gear you CURRENTLY have is better than EVERYTHING that he can obtain without becoming a raider...something that most people can't/won't do because:

1) Raiding guilds generally aren't inviting "casual" players.
2) People don't want to listen to some drill sergeant wanna-be bark orders at them, often including vulgarities and other offensive language.
3) They don't have a schedule that allows it. I play nearly everyday, usually for multiple hours...but I'm not going to commit specific times to EQ above RL because of a threat to de-guild anyone who doesn't have an 80% attendance rate for a 4-day-a-week raiding schedule.
4) Some people don't want to be associated with organizations who repeatedly and intentionally step on the foots of those that are less fortunate, often going so far as to laugh at those victims.

Maybe your server is different than mine. /shrug

I have some good RL friends that are officers in the highest guilds on our server...I still have problems with some of their guildmates' attitudes/actions. Sadly, though...the mid-tier guilds are generally even worse to us "casual" players.

All of these things are pretty different from group to group. I maintain a 90+% attendance in my raid force, but it isn't attendance required and maintains a 3 night a week schedule. (I think this isn't enough to maintain progression, to be honest, but the point is that forces like ours are pretty much the norm for midtier raiding, not the exception.)

I think it's more important that group gear have the potential to get very good than it is to have the easily available group gear be good. That's why I'm mystified by some grouper reactions - I'd trade weaker base+slot 11 gear in a second for a potential slot 12 (group) that was an improvement, especially in terms of focus effects or mod2s.

e.g. if the devs swapped

group slot 11 - 400 hp/ma (present), no group slot 12;

for

group slot 11 - 300 hp/ma + 100 hp/ma slot 12+improved bells and whistles (focus, mod2s)

I'd take the latter without hesitation. Because once I put the effort in I'd get better gear.

Now if the latter was the same end product with more work - yuk, no dice. So obviously the most attractive avenue depends quite a bit on the details.

[Aaneras]

This is not correct, and sadly, this fact tends to get lost in the noise.


As a result, the only combination that will be "nerfed" AND currently exists is elegant/sublime/last blood -- and to a lesser extent, elegant/sublime and both sunshard and serpents, but the devs have stated from the beginning that those two combos are overpowered compared to dropped gear. The main fix for that is the new level 75 armor.

The only question is, then, what is "just right" for the stats on the elegant/sublime/last blood combination? Note that this ONLY affects the raid version of the cultural armors, not the group version.

This is also the only combination accessible to the large majority of raiders, since there is a much smaller pool of TSS+ raiders than DP/DK raiders (by a factor of 2-3) and a large legacy base of last bloods in the TSS+ guilds.

No one cares about what they actually do with the 70 armor, for the same reason that the precise stats of 40, 50, or 60 armor don't stir much passion - level 70 is a way station and not a destination now. It's where the gear ends up that matters, not what it looks like on the way.

Personal opinion: adjust down the slot 11 symbols and armor, add groupable slot 12 augs that make the end product significantly better on net for groupers, adjust up the focus effects on last blood, increase the differential between LB/Sunshard/etc. by improving the latter rather than degrading the former. You get logical raid progression and better group gear. Add in the option to trade obsolete visible armor for comparable tier raid augs and people could actually end up happier on average rather than less happy.

[KyrosKrane]

My personal opinion is that visible armors from Demi through TSS should get a 50-75hp boost (and comparable boosts to other stats, if needed). Then the devs could rebalance the cultural around these new targets. This would mitigate the size of the nerf on LB combos, while at the same time restoring a reason to raid Demi, DK, and TSS (compared to current group drops in SoF). Even with the increases, it wouldn't approach TBS level armors, let alone SoF ones. The upshot is that it turns into a win-win situation.

[Wyvernwill]

Honestly, it comes down to, I don't care what casuals are wearing because in the end, their gear isn't mine. I only care about my gear being able to handle what I need it for and what I obtained it for. (AKA: Forward Progression)

In my case, I am a demi raider and decked out between PoR Progression drops and the best that DPoB has to offer.

With less risk and less effort that it takes me to be able to get into Frostcrypt and Ashengate... I can get better gear. I don't care that a casual player can not get it or it takes them X-months longer than me to do so. Their progression is irrelevent to my situation, as my situation is irrelevent to theirs. My progression has no impact on those ahead of me either.

I do not like that what was one of my potential progression paths (which factors in raid loot), is being unfairly targeted, but the other progression path I have that doesn't require any raid loot at all has been completely overlooked. In the case of cultural people are screaming "But it's Risk Vs Reward!" It's got nothing to do with RvR. It's just as easy for me to obtain another route that gives me similar progression levels as it is for me to do cultural.

I also gaurantee that if cultural is nerfed bad enough, the group drops is the way I will end up going. Why? Because it would be better and put me back near to what I had with the cultural+LB armor.

In the end, I want people to see the entire forest, not just the biggest tree.

[Twistagain]

I understand that. However, if you assume that each group (true casual, high-end casuals, mid-tier raiders, high-end raiders) has a similar view (that they don't care about the other groups), then you have to do what is best for the majority.

True casuals are unaffected. They can't afford the cultural, and they can't get the augs.

Higher-end casuals are affected positively. They can't get the augs, but the armor gets better.

Mid-tier raiders are affected negatively. Their armor gets nothing-to-slight-boost, while their aug gets nerfed. End result is less than what they have (though I doubt it would be a major change.)

High-end raiders are mostly unaffected (except that they get to maintain a larger gap...which is considered a boon to some of them.)

I don't know the percentages, population-wise, but I am pretty sure that mid-tier raiders are a minority. Since every other group is either unaffected or positively affected, it only makes sense.

[KyrosKrane]

Raiders overall are a minority compared to non-raiders. In turn, end-game raiders are a minority compared to "casual" or "mid-tier" raiders, however you define those terms.

[Woland]

A word about Crystallos Tier 4 group drops. Do not overestimate them!

Demi/DK gear is in many ways better, tank with New Cultural after nerf (100 HP down from here per visible slot) is way ahead of anyone that is Crystallos group geared, no comparison. All items I have seen are 40%+ AC less than TSS gear and foci are not great. There is a bunch of Mod2s and 3s listed but it is hard to compare. I doubt you can max Mod 2s with that gear and I know you will max them easy with Demi gear.

I do not think SoF is bad for Mid tier raiders at all. It will close gap and give mid tier more content to work with. Any guild that is able to keep solid attendance should be able to do very well and catch up some.

[Archus]

Demi/DK gear is in many ways better, tank with New Cultural after nerf (100 HP down from here per visible slot) is way ahead of anyone that is Crystallos group geared, no comparison.

No clue how you can make this statement when we have no idea yet how severely the LB's are going to get nerfed.

[Bobaten]

No clue how you can make this statement when we have no idea yet how severely the LB's are going to get nerfed.

We actually have a very good idea how severely they will be nerfed. Elaborate+Eminent+LB will not change, and Elaborate+Eminent is supposed to be roughly equal to level 70 TBS vendor gear. It's pretty easy to do the math and see that Elaborate+Eminent will be gaining 75-100 hp and around 10 ac. Therefore Last Bloods will lose that amount. The only real question is whether mod2s will get moved from Last Bloods to the Eminent seals or not.

[thomenthechanter]

The problem here is that they'll also have to nerf Bazus...

Compare, if you will:

Bazu Seal of Dodge
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE AUGMENTATION
Augmentation type: 12
Slot: HEAD ARMS WRIST HANDS CHEST LEGS FEET
AC: 30
STR: +5 DEX: +5 STA: +5 CHA: +5 WIS: +5 INT: +5 AGI: +5 HP: +180 MANA: +180 ENDUR: +180
SV FIRE: +13 SV DISEASE: +13 SV COLD: +12 SV MAGIC: +12 SV POISON: +12
Shielding: +2% Accuracy: +6 Stun Resist: +2% DoT Shielding: +2% Attack: +20 Regeneration: +1
Required level of 70.
Effect: Improved Dodge III (Worn, Casting Time: Instant) at Level 70

vs.

Last Blood of the Cutpurse Lucy's Entry Item Glossary
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO TRADE AUGMENTATION
Augmentation type: 12
Slot: HEAD ARMS WRIST HANDS CHEST LEGS FEET
AC: 45
STR: +7 DEX: +7 STA: +7 CHA: +7 WIS: +7 INT: +7 AGI: +7 HP: +210 MANA: +210 ENDUR: +210
SV FIRE: +16 SV DISEASE: +16 SV COLD: +15 SV MAGIC: +15 SV POISON: +15
Shielding: +2% Accuracy: +7 Stun Resist: +2% DoT Shielding: +2% Attack: +25 Regeneration: +2 Damage Shield: +1
Required level of 70.
Effect: Improved Dodge III (Worn, Casting Time: Instant) at Level 70

If they indeed remove 10AC and 100 HP from the LB, and don't make similar changes to the Bazu... All they've done is change it so that the Bazu targets become prime meat again.

[Bobaten]

Well, if it was 10/100 from last bloods, I would expect something between 7/90 and 10/100 to come from Bazus too. In the same vein, 0/50 from Discordant, and probably nothing from Chronal. Sure that would make Chronal relatively more powerful than it is today...but still fairly weak.

[Archus]

We actually have a very good idea how severely they will be nerfed. Elaborate+Eminent+LB will not change, and Elaborate+Eminent is supposed to be roughly equal to level 70 TBS vendor gear. It's pretty easy to do the math and see that Elaborate+Eminent will be gaining 75-100 hp and around 10 ac. Therefore Last Bloods will lose that amount. The only real question is whether mod2s will get moved from Last Bloods to the Eminent seals or not.

Its shocking to me that you seem to know how things will change, when even the devs do not know. Ngreth just posted this quote today on the SoE boards. Full link here - http://forums.station.sony.com/eq/po...124557#1768677

I just want to let people know that we are paying attention to the feedback we are getting from all sides.
While we fully understand that you want numbers and direct answers now, we really believe it will be a bad idea to give out something we are still working on. We are still debating what to do. They range through many of the ideas we have seen on these and other forums, including the "do nothing" idea. We are considering them all. It will just create more bad feelings if we give stats and then change them, even if we say they are not final stats.
When we have something more concrete that we are ready for additional more specific feedback on, we will be sharing it.

[Eggborn]

Was going better, but our raid leader has been missing his corpse from a server crash a while back. Several other members of our guild are missing corpses and items as well. It's been tough going for us. A few people after several days have gotten an email that said there are a lot of petitions so hold tight. Most haven't heard anything at all. We have a lot of retirements, but we still do have recruits. Not dying, just the timing is bad with the server crashes hitting every 8 hours or so too.

I just want to be able to tank what I can now. I don't want to go too far backwards with this other stuff going on. I am sure glad it isn't my job to be involved with this and rely on eq for money. It's just my hobby that is going crappy right now.

[Bobaten]

Its shocking to me that you seem to know how things will change, when even the devs do not know.

Why should it be shocking? Players usually know how things need to be fixed before devs announce changes. Are the numbers I gave exact? Nope, they are my best guess. I gave numbers that matched the description of how they said they intended to change. Sure, if they go a different direction based on player input, my numbers wil be meaningless.

[Aaneras]

We actually have a very good idea how severely they will be nerfed. Elaborate+Eminent+LB will not change, and Elaborate+Eminent is supposed to be roughly equal to level 70 TBS vendor gear. It's pretty easy to do the math and see that Elaborate+Eminent will be gaining 75-100 hp and around 10 ac. Therefore Last Bloods will lose that amount. The only real question is whether mod2s will get moved from Last Bloods to the Eminent seals or not.

The remaining question is whether the developers intend to infuriate a large component of their player base with an ill-advised pander to a tiny jealous minority. There are 2500 posts on the SoE boards, with sentiment running overwhelmingly against - and close to 100 posted account suspensions just because they're considering these changes. This "fix" makes sense only in a narrow set of comparisons; it could equally be "fixed" by improving the prior visible cultural armor; and it's a flat out kick in the teeth to a group that was supposed to be seeing a gear gap get closed, not widened.