Hey Verdandi....

[Angelsyn]

*sigh*

I like owning boxed software. I like owning disks.

What is the reward for buying the Box? Is is at least similar? I think a teleport-stick for my Paladin would be nice.

Will there be a Magus port near the new expansion zones? How about a PoK Stone?

[Nolrog]

*sigh*

I like owning boxed software. I like owning disks.

What is the reward for buying the Box? Is is at least similar? I think a teleport-stick for my Paladin would be nice.

There is no box. You can only buy the expansion via digital download.

[Angelsyn]

There is no box. You can only buy the expansion via digital download.

Guh.

Increased level cap... new race... enough new zones that you never have to leave the new zones to advance in levels...

And it's not going to be sold over the counter?!?

That's just... strange to me.

[Itek]

SOE Profit on a retail box = (roughly) a buck or two, maybe MAYBE five bucks...

SOE Profit on download = nearly pure ....

Back when the "rewards" were attached to "retail boxes" the "prefer download" crowd couldn't understand why SOE even -sold- retail boxes. (search for my explainations on why it makes sense to sell retail boxes)

SOE has apparently decided they don't have a serious "store shelf" market for online-only games. Which makes sense. If someone walked into EBgames later this month, saw the box for Serpent and said "gosh, this looks cool, I've never heard of EverQuest before, I'll install and play it" they'ed be sc-rew-ed roy-al.

No friends. No community. No idea where to start. Why should I re-map auto-attack from "a" key ? No plat. No gear. No one to give you a leg up. Any serious attempt to get help gets "shut up n00b" answers...

Everyone that gets a bad experience tells 10 people, everyone that gets a good experience tells MAYBE two people. (Ask the business and marketing folks, rules of thumb, your mileage will vary, don't quote me on it, don't flame me on it, just take it as a point of faith.) The last thing EQ needs is to attract 10,000 true newbies and {self-edit} tick them off ROYALLY with bad play experience.

So if SOE has decided they no longer want to please Wally-World and EBgames and the like by letting them skim some of the "retail box" profits.... It's a bad sign and a good sign.

Bad Sign: They won't be putting a lot of SOE boxes on shelves for ANY upcoming products real soon. (Wally-World especially has a long memory.)

Good Sign: If they are making more profit they will keep the servers up longer. (And they are in business to make money, so it's obvious they believe this will make them more money in the long run.)

I'm -in-favor- of anything that keeps the servers up longer.

[Nolrog]

SOE Profit on a retail box = (roughly) a buck or two, maybe MAYBE five bucks...

SOE Profit on download = nearly pure ....

That's true, however most people did the downloads anyway for pure convenience. Others preferred the boxes or didn't have an alternate means of paying for a digital download. IMO, they won't be making significantly more money from making the expansion DD only than they made off the last expansion. They do save on the costs for making the boxes and putting them in the stores though.

SOE has apparently decided they don't have a serious "store shelf" market for online-only games. Which makes sense. If someone walked into EBgames later this month, saw the box for Serpent and said "gosh, this looks cool, I've never heard of EverQuest before, I'll install and play it" they'ed be sc-rew-ed roy-al.

For this expansion, it doesn't make sense. They are positioning this as the re-introduction of Everquest/EQ 1.5 expansion, aimed at drawing people into (back into) the game, with an increased advertisting budget and everything. People will see the ads, and go to EB and say, I'd like to take a look at that EverQuest thing, and the EB guy will say we don't sell it, but here's this WoW thing/DAoC thing/AC thing/NWN thing/Lineage thing/DDO thing/Guild Wars thing/etc thing. you can look at instead.

No friends. No community. No idea where to start. Why should I re-map auto-attack from "a" key ? No plat. No gear. No one to give you a leg up. Any serious attempt to get help gets "shut up n00b" answers...

Pretty much how everyone else started (I'm almost positive they moved the auto attack key by the way. I had already remapped mine, so I never payed it much attention.) At least now there's a much better tutorial.

Bad Sign: They won't be putting a lot of SOE boxes on shelves for ANY upcoming products real soon. (Wally-World especially has a long memory.)

A veeeeeeeeeeeeery long memory. SOE will want to put other things on Wally's shelves, and Wally will say, no thanks, we'll put up something else instead. Even a limited run will help in numerous ways to a) keep Wally happy and b) give those people that can only pay cash a way to get the expansion.

Good Sign: If they are making more profit they will keep the servers up longer. (And they are in business to make money, so it's obvious they believe this will make them more money in the long run.)

The profit on the expansions are there to pay for its development for the most part. Sure there's profit but the real profit comes from the monthly accounts which is what pretty much pays for everything else.

It's better to put that box on the shelf, and take only a 5 dollar profit, for the 15 dollar a month account that they'll get than to not get that person in the game at all.

IMO, boxes on shelves keeps the game visable, and brings new people into the game (how do you think I got here.) Digital Download brings more "instant profit" but less potential for adding new customers.

[pilanthas]

the game doesn't need to be visable in stores

every gamer knows about everquest and can pretty accurately guess what it's like to play it.

[Bobaten]

I believe the idea is:
Once a year release a compilation pack in retail stores (only) that has all of the current expansions for $20.
Release 2 new expansions each year through digital download (only) for $30 each.
The next compilation pack (Titanium+PoR and TSS) should hit stores in January (Christmas would be better of course, but EQ2 is getting the Christmas release slot).
This way new players get started with every thing they need, and there is no confusion as to what they should buy since the compilation has everything. Existing players don't need to see retail boxes to know about the new expansions, and they are the ones most likely to buy them.

[Nolrog]

the game doesn't need to be visable in stores

every gamer knows about everquest and can pretty accurately guess what it's like to play it.

There are still new people out there to be had.

[Itek]

Nolrog -

This isn't, and should NOT BE, the official forums debate / debacle about this issue.

There are strong reasons to publish "retail boxes" and incentivize them.

There are -also- strong reasons to NOT publish "retail boxes."

My point, again, was that when there are boxes and the "prize" is in the box one side of the community complains. Then when there is no box the other side complains.

Precisely HOW would you suggest pleasing both sides ? *crickets chirping*

Finding a "new" (as in, never played an online game, never heard of EverQuest/WoW/DAoC/Lineage/DnD-Online) player is so extremely unlikely as to be vanishing returns.

"People who can only pay cash." ... This is a spurious arguement if not an actual "strawman" tactic. If you are under 18 you must have your parents ACTIVE permission to play. (see the EULA) If you are over 18 and can't get a debit card with your checking account... how are you paying your internet fees? Those check-cashing places are E-B-il.

As for the idea that "the expansion only pays for itself, i.e. development costs of the expansion" ... First, I'd wager you're completely wrong. (Very few people aim for "break even" in their business plan.) Second, expansion keeps the game alive. Fail to expand and die. Name a game doing as well (or less badly) on player subscription rates as EQ that has not released at least one expansion a year.

More profit = servers stay up. Without real numbers I'm going to have to guess that SOE believes this is in their best interest. What's in SOE's best interest is in MY characters best interest. (if not my best interest, personally I'd love to keep the money in my wallet rather than theirs)

....

See it coming.... Yes, yes... They COULD release both, and give the "prize" to both. And still that would NOT please everyone.

"Why do the Digital people, on whom you make more profit, not get a better deal?"

"Why -should- I buy a "retail box," and improve your relations with Wally-world, if there isn't a bonus in it for me ?"

/sigh ....

[Nolrog]

Nolrog -

This isn't, and should NOT BE, the official forums debate / debacle about this issue.

Silly me. I thought this was an open forum for people to post their thoughts and discuss things. Then you tell me it isn't a debate, then go on to debate me.

The fact of the matter is this. The current paradigm is: Boxes on shelves bring in new players. DD caters to existing players. A box on the shelf means less profit now, but more recurring profit later. There are some players that will see the new ads that are up, and go for the DD, but I still believe people will go to the store to look at it.

So which is better? The recurring accounts are, because that's more profit in the long run, and as we know, profit keeps the servers running (plus, as I mentioned before, most people will DD it anyway, so they aren't losing that much in the profit by putting some on the shelves.)

SOE is trying to change the paradigm, that part seems to be clear. But in the process they are upsetting a lot of people, including Wally and some players that cannot pay any other way but cash (believe it or not, there are some people that refuse to carry any sort of card, be it credit or debit or whatever. They are currently shut out of the expansion because of this decision.)

SOE tried to change the paradigm before with LoY, and ended up putting out a limited run of boxes (in which they began the in game reward item.)

We also must not lose site of the forrest for the trees as well. SOE puts out a lot of other things, both in terms of MMOs and console games that will need to be on those same store shelves. As was argued earlier, Wally has a veeeery long memory (I will add that Wally can be vindictive as well.) So it's better to put some boxes on Wally's shelves and take a bit less profit now. That keeps Wally happy (and it gives those people that cannot pay any other way happy) because next year, SOE will release a new game, and will want Wally to display it prominently.

Precisely HOW would you suggest pleasing both sides ? *crickets chirping*

You can't please both sides, because there is no both sides. The people that complain this time are the same people, for the most part, that complained last time, and the same that will complain the next time. These same people complain about everything. DD only: complain. Store only: complain. Both: complain that store has a better reward, or complain that the store has no reward, or complain they have the same reward.

[Maevenniia]

IIRC, SOE does plan on releasing a boxed version in january (unfortunately they said they will miss the Xmas season release "window"), that may also be be another compilation of everything up to & including TSS.

I agree, since TSS was supposed to be a "stand-alone" expansion where you can level 1 - 75 and don't need other expansions (excepting classic eq), that it would have been ideal to attract the newbs, but by releasing it in January, after lots of the initial bugs (not caught in Beta) are worked out and content is further tuned, might be just as good.

Now, play nice you two, hehe

[Nolrog]

IIRC, SOE does plan on releasing a boxed version in january (unfortunately they said they will miss the Xmas season release "window"), that may also be be another compilation of everything up to & including TSS.

I read that too. That's disappointing.

Now, play nice you two, hehe

We're playing nice. We're just having a conversation where we don't happen to agree. Once Itek sees it my way, everything will be fine again.

[Elyssanda]

Once Itek sees it my way, everything will be fine again.

Ya know.. I try this tactic with hubby and kids sometimes.. never works there either...

[Maevenniia]

We're playing nice. We're just having a conversation where we don't happen to agree. Once Itek sees it my way, everything will be fine again.

Knowing Itek, you are doomed to diappointment then.

[Angelsyn]

Besides preferring to "own" disks and "own" software...

I've never liked the idea of pre-buying something. I'm willing to pay subscriptions, but I don't pre-order stuff. Too many possible problems with delivery.

I also prefer to wait until at least the first "fixes" have gone in. For instance, though I could get Windows Vista for my computer when it comes out... I won't buy it until after the first major batch of patches come out.

I want to know that what I'm buying has been tested in the "real world"... not just special testing environments.