I'm frustrated (Vent follows)

[Doomspark Deathfire]

First off, I really appreciate all the work that Ngreth has done on tradeskills since he started working for Sony. I definitely appreciate the feedback that he leaves on various threads. That said... I'm venting anyway.

I'm extremely frustrated with the apparent mind-set that high-end tradeskills should be the sole province of the filthy rich and/or high level. I'm speaking mainly of smithing and tailoring.

This started with the advent of the cultural armor, when you HAD to get to mid-30's or so in order to farm your cultural temper and (in the case of tailoring) the hides. With Velious, it got worse because you need to get to the early 40's to farm those zones safely.

Then comes PoP, and the bar for the high end tradeskills gets reset to 46, the minimum for Planar access. BD cultural is introduced - which requires levelling further since farming in the planes at 46 is close to suicidal. Now we have the DON cultural which requires a GROUP of 65 minimum (my opinion) to get the glossy drake hides and metallic drake scales for the Grandmaster armor.

I think it's quite obvious that Sony intends the high end tradeskills to be for high-level characters. The PoR trophies are one more bit of fuel on the fire. My level 33 smith cannot complete his Journeyman's trophy, as it requires drops from Velious, Luclin, and GoD that he cannot get by himself.

Here's some suggestions:
1) Add an option to get the Beginner's Trophy tasks for low level (pre-50)characters so they can get their trophies without having to spend hours farming plat to buy the components.

2) Lower the required level on PoP tradeskill items to 30. Lower the recommended level on the BD cultural armor to 30. This would improve the market for these goods.

3) Replace the sapphires for Innoruuk, rubies for Brell, etc, with a single "soulgem" (name it what you will) that costs the same regardless of deity. Currently, some folks pay significantly more for their deity's gem (Brell and Innoruuk) than others (RZ and E Marr for example) and SOME deities are drop-only (Mith Marr, Bertox, and The Tribunal). This would even the playing field for everyone.

4) Make the humming luclinite mallet and vah shir anvil vendor purchasable (with faction). This would reduce the PITA factor of shadowscream slightly.

5) Modify the reinforced jeweler's kit to accept the PoP jewelry combines. Modify the Spell research kit to accept the 16-60 spell combines. This would reduce the over-all number of specialized kits that tradeskillers need.

6) Add a cultural Loom to each city.

[Strokker]

That was venting??? Boy where I come from that would be called a quiet chat. I have a ton of low level toons and I agree that some trades are out of sync with levels...after all they have opened up trades so you can level them all the way up from level 1 unless < and I may be mistaken as I dont have toons in the classes > it is class or race specific..I have a lowlevel gnome but he is over 16 already and that was where you could start tinkering might be different now.

I however agree that the game gets twinked for high end players more than the low levels but they have made leveling a lot easier I took my Gnome SK from one to 17 in a day with shammy made potions...Sold a lot in Gloomingdeep after people saw me solo the Overlord AND his 3 other companions at level 6...tehe <gotta love them spikes>. However they do not want to loose their player base and a lot of that is High end Gamers, it is difficult to make it great for all levels and there is soooo much old content that would have to be changed...It is cheap enough to skill up with vendor bought items now in most trades.

I guess what I am saying is I feel your pain and would like to see things made better for all concerned but they just don't have the man power and selling ideas to the Powers that be can be difficult especially if they might also play high end game..

I wish you luck and if you want to you can really get steamed, but you know like I do that it wont make much difference. Hang in there, it might just get better.

[Doomspark Deathfire]

That was about the 5th draft of the vent to be honest. I try to be polite when I'm griping in someone else's backyard.

[Itek]

Ok, I can see it's a vent.

"It seems that SOE want's high-skill tradeskills to be for high-level characters."

Read that sentence again and ponder it for a minute.

Wouldn't that... be ... the point?

I've been playing a long time, and tradeskilling since I started. (my first character, a monk, had better tailoring skill than hand to hand for a while) I don't have a single character with a skill over 248, and those are brewing. Most of my skills hover in the 168 range.

Because I don't dedicate the time, energy and plat to high end tradeskills.

Be honest in response to this question...

Would you be even 10% as interested in tradeskills if they could all be mastered (300 skill) in 20 hours (for each skill) by a level 10 character from storebought materials?

No.

Everyone likes to say "it should be a -little- easier" but let's face it we know it's a slippery slope. If you got A a bit easier wouldn't it -also- be nice if B dropped just a touch more often? All diety-specific gems become generic to make getting them easier... well why not make them available from NPC vendors... sure a quest to refill the vendor after buying 800 sounds ok. Well, maybe 1600... Heck, so many people doing it now can the re-stock items drop more too?

IF it were easier it wouldn't mean as much when you get your name on the 2100 list. Don't give up too easy. Just determine what you want your EverQuest goal to be. For me 2100 isn't the goal, but if I come upon a good skill up path I'll see how far I can go. But there are other things I prefer. If tradeskills are what you want one way or the other you will get there.

Note: I'm saying this while I take a mental health break from a college coding project. I've literally not logged in to EQ, or even read my guild's website, for 17 days. And I'll most likely not log in for at least another 7 to 10. For me real life is more important than getting Qvic flagged. (Heck I am probably even gonna miss out on the Snow Bunny Hat.) People who aren't "u0-bah" get their tradeskills up and you can do it. Keep the "faith."

[Winenose]

Someone somewhere said EQ was a multiplayer game.. in the sense that you can actually buy and SELL (instead of farming plat) stuff at any level.

[Doomspark Deathfire]

"It seems that SOE want's high-skill tradeskills to be for high-level characters."

Read that sentence again and ponder it for a minute.

Wouldn't that... be ... the point?

You've misquoted me. What I said was:

I'm extremely frustrated with the apparent mind-set that high-end tradeskills should be the sole province of the filthy rich and/or high level

Note the first part of that. If you have enough platinum, you CAN master every tradeskill because you can buy the drops that you can't get for yourself.

Would you be even 10% as interested in tradeskills if they could all be mastered (300 skill) in 20 hours (for each skill) by a level 10 character from storebought materials?

*snort* I am NOT asking for that, and you know it. Quit trying to make me look like an idiot, ok?

Everyone likes to say "it should be a -little- easier" but let's face it we know it's a slippery slope. If you got A a bit easier wouldn't it -also- be nice if B dropped just a touch more often? All diety-specific gems become generic to make getting them easier... well why not make them available from NPC vendors... sure a quest to refill the vendor after buying 800 sounds ok. Well, maybe 1600... Heck, so many people doing it now can the re-stock items drop more too?

You're misquoting me again. I didn't say make the *deity* specific gems generic to make getting them EASIER, I said make it FAIR across all deities. The vast majority of gems ARE vendor bought right now.

Itek, I've been around these forums probably as long as you have even if I don't post as much as you do. I don't appreciate your attempts to make me look stupid by misquoting me and taking what I say out of context. I *know* you're not stupid, so I can only conclude that you are doing it with malice aforethought.

[Doomspark Deathfire]

Someone somewhere said EQ was a multiplayer game.. in the sense that you can actually buy and SELL (instead of farming plat) stuff at any level.

So instead of spending hours farming plat by killing spiders and spiderlings, I spend hours farming plat by buying and selling in the bazaar? Same difference.

[Flehmen]

The problem comes from the fact that there is no fair way to make tradeskills doable at lvl 38(my artisan, for example) without making it easy for a lvl 70 to either buy or farm the required components and "waltz" through the combines. (And don't give me the BS about how you had to click as often as I did, at lvl 70 there is a bunch of AAs, and extra stats to get skill-ups faster too. It is also faster, if the path is open to you, to farm baz.)

The only thing that even came close to fair was trivial loot code. It encouraged the downward movement of plat, a lot of farm bots, XP while farming, etc.

We all know how that worked out. There were far too many problems to go into with required drops for quests being impossible to get at higher lvls being a pretty big one. The other strike against it is that it makes the game more fair for all(ie. harder for those at the top), so annoys the top end player, the biggest customer base.

I can't think of a good solution to the problems you mention except how easy it is now a days to lvl up a toon to 70. As I keep getting told, just do it.

Anyhow, I'm not complaining as I choose to do what I do. I just try to have fun and forget about doing anything others might find useful in the game. I certainly don't try to make my tradeskills self-supporting. As such I've not tradeskilled in a few months as I don't have the plat to get much beyond where I am now. At some point I'll find farming stuff for my artisan fun and do that for a while and take up TSing again.

Take care!

[Ngreth Thergn]

5) Modify the reinforced jeweler's kit to accept the PoP jewelry combines. Modify the Spell research kit to accept the 16-60 spell combines. This would reduce the over-all number of specialized kits that tradeskillers need.

Because of the way things work. This is not modifying the container... this is actually modifying all of the recipes and then they would not longer work in the old containers. Current code will not allow it to work in both (spell research was done in an odd way)

[Lucian Celeste]

Also just for the record Itek didn't quote you directly. If anything they were paraphrases.

[Silverfish]

To Address Your Points

I'd like to take a shot at your points, because I've been where you are now, and I think I can add some perspective.

1) Add an option to get the Beginner's Trophy tasks for low level (pre-50)characters so they can get their trophies without having to spend hours farming plat to buy the components.

While I agree that it's not a bad idea, it's susceptible to "gaming the trophy". Sure, one can get an easy task and then level up the trophy, but there are only two ways to handle this. For the first choice, get a beginner trophy at any level, but then you have to skill it up normally. Who would be mad enough to do this on most trophies, considering that the trophy only gains experience if you're doing non-trivial combines? You'd have a level 1 trophy at 250, and you'd need to do thousands of non-trivial (to a 250) combines to get it to expert level. For anything but brewing and baking you'd have to be insane. For the second choice, you'd get the simple trophy and "auto-evolve it" somehow, possibly by doing a tough task. How is that functionally different from what we have to do now?

2) Lower the required level on PoP tradeskill items to 30. Lower the recommended level on the BD cultural armor to 30. This would improve the market for these goods.

Sure, it would improve the market. The problem is that most PoP tradeskill items are way too powerful for that level, even considering that they're recommended 61. This would be unbalancing.

3) Replace the sapphires for Innoruuk, rubies for Brell, etc, with a single "soulgem" (name it what you will) that costs the same regardless of deity. Currently, some folks pay significantly more for their deity's gem (Brell and Innoruuk) than others (RZ and E Marr for example) and SOME deities are drop-only (Mith Marr, Bertox, and The Tribunal). This would even the playing field for everyone.

There are lots of race-and deity-specific things in the game. A level playing field isn't necessarily what the developers are looking for.

4) Make the humming luclinite mallet and vah shir anvil vendor purchasable (with faction). This would reduce the PITA factor of shadowscream slightly.

The PITA factor is part of the quest. Shadowscream armor is a very cheap (in plat) route to skill up smithing. The hard part is the time sink. This is actually a bow to the lower level tradeskillers, who can reasonably farm the components without needing the high-level access that you complain about.

5) Modify the reinforced jeweler's kit to accept the PoP jewelry combines. Modify the Spell research kit to accept the 16-60 spell combines. This would reduce the over-all number of specialized kits that tradeskillers need.

Ngreth addressed the reasoning on this above.

6) Add a cultural Loom to each city.

I'm not sure if the developers intended for this or not, but since cultural sewing kits aren't really that hard to make, I don't see it as a big deal. Sure, I'd love to skip having yet another container in the bank, but that's the nature of tradeskilling. That is, it'd be nice, but it's not a showstopper.

Silverfish

[Ilona]

Your character _should_ be able to complete the book quest with the assistance of a group of characters of his own level. I believe it has been stated before (regarding the tradeskill trophy quests, but I should think the same applies here) that not everything should necessarily be soloable. You can make any level of the DoN cultural armours with just the newbie book though, it is just the books for the augs that require a little more tenacity.

As for the "not able to get the ingredients to skill up". Well, at level 33, what reason do you have (apart from the "I want to be 300 skill") to expect to be able to get those ingredients? There isn't a role-playing reason for you to be able to get them*. If the armour is meant for lvl 65+ characters (in the case of GM armours) or 55+ (Master's armours) or even 40+ (BD cultural), then it makes good roleplaying sense for the ingredients to be available to those characters/levels that can actually wear it. Again, at the minimum level to wear those armours, it is expected that you may well need a group of similar levels to help you aquire ingredients. Alternatively, you can make friends with higher level characters who can help you get the ingredients in exchange for your skill. That also makes good roleplaying sense (as you get better in skill, your reputation will spread and more people will hear of you). Why should something where ingredients only drop in a lvl 46+ zone (planes) be wearable from level 30? If you can't get the ingredients, why should you be able to wear the armour? As it is, nothing stops you for making it for a friend of higher level if they bring you the ingredients.

In EQ, things were never supposed to be equal across the board. That is why some races/classes had XP penalties. Some races found it harder to find merchants etc that would sell to them due to faction. Some deities had higher opinions of themselves and so required their followers to show more devotion my hunting or spending more money to acquire the drops for their cultural armours

As for the vah shir anvil and hammer. Consider the time it takes to make them as the time spent "faction farming" for other things. It is reasonable to expect that the Master Smith giving the quests won't just give them to any Tom, Dick or Harry that comes along and says "hey, I wanna skill up". Instead of requiring high faction with a merchant, there is instead a quest that can be done. The quest can even be shortened since one of the items partway through it is droppable. If you are on Quellious you are welcome to borrow my tunic to bypass some of the quest.

Disclaimer: Yes, I currently have two level 70 characters. However, I have been tradeskilling for years, and had problems for a long time getting ingredients. Eg I had to wait about a year after the shawl quests came out to get my 8th shawl, despite having the skills enough to do it. I got by on what I could find on vendors (without having a lot of pp!), what I could get myself and also what my (higher level) friends were willing to save for me.

*NB you can skill up your smithing to 300 in Plane of Knowledge alone, on sickles.

[Itek]

Ok, I can see it's a vent.

"It seems that SOE want's high-skill tradeskills to be for high-level characters."

That's a para-phrase. Notice the lack of me quoting someone else. It's my take on not only the OP but the general statement. New Tannan Craft Mastery is level restricted. 51 to spend AAs. Getting 18 AAs at 51 would be such a horrific nightmare it doesn't bear contemplation.

Be honest in response to this question...

Would you be even 10% as interested in tradeskills if they could all be mastered (300 skill) in 20 hours (for each skill) by a level 10 character from storebought materials?

No.

I asked an honest and relevant question. I didn't call anyone stupid. I pointed out that "sense of accomplishment" is -directly-tied- to difficulty. If everyone CAN do it, doing it loses something.

I commented on diety specific gems with the intention of speaking about the "imbued gems" (some dieties it's HARD to find someone to imbue them, and they generally charge a TON) rather than just the drops. As others have pointed out SOE makes no secret that some races / classes have it tougher ON PURPOSE.

IF it were easier it wouldn't mean as much when you get your name on the 2100 list.

Don't give up too easy.

If tradeskills are what you want one way or the other you will get there.

... and you can do it. Keep the "faith."

Four times I -directly- say that you can and will get there. If you believe that's malicious intent I really can't be bothered to explain the difference.

[GrimwoodCT]

As I have mentioned elsewhere in a few threads over the years, I own a gourmet ice cream shop. Its been in my family for 38 years, I've worked there for 22 of them, 15 of them as the owner/operator.

When Mom and Dad started the place back in 1969 then had very little money, Dad worked full time as a mason during the day and then drove home to help Mom at night. They bought the cheapest machinery, the cheapest refrigeration/freezers they could find. As a result the ice cream was...average.

Back in those days there was little competition in the area so they managed to break even. In the process they learned a little more about the industry by observing how others ran their businesses, spoke to others in the field and just plain used common sense.

Mom accrued a list of recipes, Dad upgraded the building, they had a larger cash flow to draw upon, they bought upgraded machinery, they became better at making high quality product and began to branch out.

After years they developed a business that is famous in our area, but only through hard work, life lessons, a lot of money and thousands of mistakes.

Tradeskills are like that too. You are going to need cash, you are going to need supplies, you are going to need machinery/containers, you are going to need real life experience/levels to be successful.

Twenty two years ago I could barely pull a cone. Now the recipes we create are quickly coppied by shops all over the area. Just like in real life, in EQ you need to have that type of experience and cash base to be successful.

Whether it be business or tradeskilling, you can start out with a mountain of cash and no experience and do nothing other than make average products. Or you can be an experienced business person/tradeskiller with no money and buy cheap materials and machinery and also make nothing other than average products. (GIGO.)

But when you combine experience, venture capital, common sense, real-life experience and "hours in the field" experience you have the recipe for success.

So yes, I would say that you DO need to be of a higher level to really cash in on the high end tradeskilling. I think its the way it should be and has to be. If everyone was a 300 tailor then why would anyone want to be?

Doing without IS an option. No-one has the "right" to see Time or Theatre of Blood or even the Nest. Similarly no-one has the "right" to be a Master Artisan. But if you apply yourself, level up, spend your time constructively then you can position yourself to do great things within the game.

[Doomspark Deathfire]

Well -

Ngreth - thank you for the reply about the tradeskill containers. I was hoping to reduce the number of kits that I have to keep on-hand.

Flehmen - yes, you put your finger on the problem. What I can do at my current level of 33 can be waltzed through in half the time by a character at level 70.

Silverfish - If you limit the ability to get the beginner's trophy task to characters pre-50 (or perhaps pre-40 in today's game), then I don't think it's too unbalancing as these younger characters will have run into the same brick wall I have of being unable to get materials to do the higher level trophies. You may be right about lowering the levels on the PoP gear, although there is pretty much zero market for it on The Rathe.

Ilona - At my current skill of 220 smithing, I would have to make the Master's level armor to gain skillups. Ergo, farming midnight stones in PoN or metallic drake scales in Creator missions, neither of which I can do solo or grouped. Therefore the DoN smithing is not a viable path.

You offer me MCS's as an option - I'm nowhere near rich enough to even consider that as a skillup path. But that's one of the recipes I was thinking of when I said that high-end tradeskills belong to the rich. If you have enough platinum in the bank, you can level pretty much any tradeskill to 300 at level 1.

Considering the number of hours I would have to spend farming shadowscream components (and competing with other would-be smiths), I don't think it's unreasonable to chop SOME of the time off by making the anvil and mallet vendor purchaseable. I appreciate the offer of the tunic, but I'm on The Rathe, not Quellious.

The entire tone of your post seems to be one of "you have no business wanting to make high-end tradeskill items at level 33 so quit whining". Why then does the game permit it at all? Why REMOVE the level caps on Research and Alchemy if not to open up high end tradeskills to the low level character?

Itek - I'm not going to debate with you. You will only take what I say and exaggerate it to extremes and then use that to try to make me look like an idiot.

Grimwood - As I said to Ilona, since the rules of the game allow for it, why shouldn't I expect to be able to work my tradeskills to 300 without having to grind up to 70 and spend hours farming plat and/or components? Those same rules put various restrictions on the zones you mention, so it's not a valid comparison.