Omens of War

[Drakh]

My personal impression, from what I heard at the Fan Faire and what I've managed to piece together, is that GoD and OoW were supposed to be one expansion.

And this is the dilema - many feel (myself included) that its imorally wrong to charge twice for one item even if it comes in two parts.

If you bought a car for 5,000 and when it arrived had no engine would you be willing to pay another 5,000 to have the engine put in it when it should have had one in the first place?

[Dunthor Warsmith]

The feeling I got when OOW was announced was kind of akin to feelings I got just before I stopped playing Magic in '99. "But we just HAD an expansion!" Granted, M:tG started doing expansions ever 3-4 months (don't recall which), IIRC, which is considerably more than SOE is doing.

Interesting analogy - I quit buying Magic stuff when it felt like they were just stuffing expansions down our throat, and rampantly inflating the power/mana ratio of the cards (making older content obsolete). It changed it from a semi-expensive hobby to a money sucker, and just robbed the fun from it.

Its been "feeling" like EQ has been releasing expansions more rapidly lately (although someone went through the dates a little while back, and the pace was relatively consistant), and the gaps between tiers of players feel like they're growing at an increasingly rapid rate. It feels like I'm being isolated from my high level friends (Elementals) and my lower level friends (low 50s, pre-twilight sea quest armor-tier gear) and stuck somewhere in the middle, that can't really interact with either group. Friends are leaving or playing less, and even when they ARE on there's little I can do with most of them ...

{sigh} Just me ranting ...

As for the designers and artists having nothing to do? their are many many graphical bugs/improvements that currently exist that they could be working on....

• scaled wolf illusion is bugged as the head is covered with a mask, completely obscuring the eyes, when cast on someone with a hat graphic.
• Old world guards still use the old models and have no updated version for
• luclin released models
• X shaped trees
• Non- partical Fires
• static objects
• doors that open into walls
• NPC text that doesnt work properly (Lars McManus says "Time to Die Drak" ! )

I have a feeling most of those would wind up being primarily programming tasks. The system to display the new-style artwork would have to be developed before the artists could be unleashed and take advantage of it. The X-trees and X-fires especially seem like primarily programming aspects, figuring out how you're going to generate the new version. Creating new high-poly old world models is an art job, but making them work with the rest of the game is programmatic - adding new toggle switchs of some sort to allow players to disable them, or revamping the graphics engine to permit them to run acceptably on older hardware, etc. All of the things you listed seem, to me, like they would have nontrivial programming aspects.

*Kunark = Ability to do Epics
*Velious = Advancement beyond 50,

Wasn't 51-60 a Kunark "gimmick"? I remember from the FAQs, SoV and SoL would both let you go to 60 without RoK, but I'm pretty sure 60 was a RoK feature originally. (have been wondering if LDoN or GoD would let you get to 65 without PoP ... miss those silly old expansion FAQs ...)

[Elyssanda]

(have been wondering if LDoN or GoD would let you get to 65 without PoP ... miss those silly old expansion FAQs ...)

While I have all expansions... I did level 56-65 almost completely in LDoN...(60-61 was a one day deal in Droga helping some friends) I'm a bard and when LDoN came out I was 55 and I've always loved dungeon crawls (old D&D player from early 80's)

Now at 65 and 40+ aa I'm visiting the Planes sometimes, but mostly for flagging. I do love the Books for travel as I run everywhere... faster for me to run than to hang around waiting for a ride.

[Cantatus]

Wasn't 51-60 a Kunark "gimmick"?

Yes, Kunark raised the level limit to 60.

[Drakh]

Adding new toggle switchs of some sort to allow players to disable them, or revamping the graphics engine to permit them to run acceptably on older hardware, etc.

with the DX9 revamp every single player will need the graphic specs to run everything pre-luclin anyway (not sure if the same thing can be said for the other DX updates) so as i say an overall graphics update is way overdue. add to the fact that SoE have a database listing ever subscribers system specs, can retrieve system information directly and knows exactly what expansions every account has activated means they could quite easily do the research to update old world without impeding peoples ability to play.

As for the X trees needing to be programmed in. to create real looking trees simply required more polygons and moving parts (branches) these have already been used in Kunark and beyond yet still pre expansion trees look like an X from the top down. Static particals are also in the game (poFire trees for example).

simply replacing old models withmore uptodate ones is what im refering to here - not a totally global reprogramming of how they work.

Wasn't 51-60 a Kunark "gimmick"?

Yes, Kunark raised the level limit to 60.

i couldnt remember myself when the level limit was raised above 50 so i grabbed the nearest manual i could find...

Quote: Scars of Velious Manual, Page 2 - Features Title -

• The ability to advance beyond level 50 with Everquest characters.

in hind sight maybe both Velious and Kunark provided you with this ability, im still looking for my kunark manual so cant say either way

[Dunthor Warsmith]

with the DX9 revamp every single player will need the graphic specs to run everything pre-luclin anyway (not sure if the same thing can be said for the other DX updates) so as i say an overall graphics update is way overdue.

I guess I don't understand what you mean. I have all the Luclin models off, and spend most of my time in PoP either staring at the ground or in a slideshow (makes for fun tanking, heh). When I just had Vah Shir on (since they're on by default) my performance was noticably worse - now I'm wishing I could turn off Frogloks, too. I still get progressive laggier, which implies to me a memory leak somewhere, which basically puts a finite cap on any given session, old world, PoP, or elsewhere. Add in replacing the old-world guard and other non-player-models with Luclin-polycount models would pretty much change even oldworld EQ from a FPS to a Top-down game for me, with the LoY maps as my view of the world. Not a positive change. I know I have better systems than plenty of people who play EQ, so undoubtly there would be others who would have problems, too. Hence the need for a toggle of somesort. Well, either that or officially raise the official hardware specs and put out refunds again, like with Win95 and DirectX9.01b (or whichever version it was that was put out right after MS support for Win95 ceased) - not necessarily a bad option, actually....

add to the fact that SoE have a database listing ever subscribers system specs, can retrieve system information directly and knows exactly what expansions every account has activated means they could quite easily do the research to update old world without impeding peoples ability to play.

I guess, how would that change anything? Even the existing graphics strain some machines. Adding to that would cause even more problems for the lower end of the spectrum - knowing the population's specs would allow you to better guage how many players its going to be bad for, but I don't see how it would fundamentally help it work better, since programming around the low end's specs would be toning down the existing graphics, not increasing them.

Plus the sending hardware information is an option, disabled by default if I remember correctly (for privacy reasons).

As for the X trees needing to be programmed in. to create real looking trees simply required more polygons and moving parts (branches) these have already been used in Kunark and beyond yet still pre expansion trees look like an X from the top down. Static particals are also in the game (poFire trees for example).

Most Kunark trees are X's, too. Velious has mostly polygon trees, but have no leaves. Modern trees now are polygon with leaf "bubbles", like in Knowledge, or just one big bubble. I just wonder if changing the X trees to polygon bubble trees would really be considered an "improvement" though, considering how much people complained (and still occasionally complain) about the graphic lag of the existing Kunark X trees - the many-polygon and assorted textures has got to be more cpu-intensive than two animated sprites.



I guess a part of my point is that a lot of these things sound like more complex changes, that would result in new demands on the client's hardware. Considering how poorly some hardware people use deals with existing EQ, it seems like anything that increases those demands purely for the sake of increasing them would necessitate some way to use the older, less complex version. Much like with the Luclin models and high quality textures (which included the three pre-existing expansions) - they added new purely visual aspects, so to keep compatibility the older versions were still capable of being used. Things like the change to DX9 engine have been sold as "making it *easier* on the processor" (even though for many it had the opposite effect) thus not necessitating the same kind of backwards compatibility to keep with the old hardware requirements. Whatever system is used for that compatibility is going to take programming time to create or modify to work with the new additions.

I'd still argue that a lot of the changes you listed would still require programming time along with the artist time to implement anyway (the toggle/compatibility issue aside), but without actually knowing the existing tools and code, its all theoretical anyhow so not much point in pursuing that point.

in hind sight maybe both Velious and Kunark provided you with this ability, im still looking for my kunark manual so cant say either way

Kunark, Velious, and Luclin all advertised the ability to advance beyond 50 to 60. PoP advertised the ability to level beyond 50 to 65. For LoY, LDoN, and GoD, I have seen no commentary about their effect on the lvl 50 cap - I'm assuming they at least allow levelling to 60, but I don't actually know.

-----

I have a feeling this is ultimately something we're just going to agree to disagree on.

[Maddoc-the-Wayfarer]

Rumor squashing time again:

My personal impression, from what I heard at the Fan Faire and what I've managed to piece together, is that GoD and OoW were supposed to be one expansion.

Is completely untrue.

Random inquiry based on comments in this thread:

I'd also be interested in hearing what you guys think about the changes in today's update, specifically regarding Gates zones. I encourage you guys to check it out and maybe fire up a post here, or on the General Boards, with your thoughts.

-- Maddoc

[kiztent]

I'd also be interested in hearing what you guys think about the changes in today's update, specifically regarding Gates zones. I encourage you guys to check it out and maybe fire up a post here, or on the General Boards, with your thoughts.

Making content easier doesn't fix class balance problems.

[Maddoc-the-Wayfarer]

Making content easier doesn't fix class balance problems.

First, that wasn't the point of my post nor my request. Second, this isn't the place for game-balance concerns.

We've posted all sorts of information about your specific concerns in various posts on the new EQ Forums. Feel free to add to the posts to voice any balance concerns you have.

In the meantime, check out the content and let me know what you guys think. Constructive posts are preferred.

-- Maddoc

[Kheera]

As for the designers and artists having nothing to do? their are many many graphical bugs/improvements that currently exist that they could be working on....

One that's bugged me a lot, and has been broken since Luclin: Luclin model male darkelves in plate. The left plate wrist is an incomplete graphic, the chain doesn't extend up to meet the sleeve; which means the "naked" elbow shows instead of armor -- so all male darkelves with plate wrists have mismatched elbows, one red cloth and one whatever their armor is.

Pity the poor darkelves who try to look all dramatic in, say, all-black... and have the red undershirt sticking out the elbow. So much for the smoooooooth image.

[Iannyen]

I started a thread in General to respond to Maddoc with constructive feedback (note that doesn't say positive, just constructive) on the GoD revamp. That way we can keep our rumor mill about OoW in here alive and well, while keeping the GoD content discussion separate.

Huzzah.

[Maevenniia]

Random inquiry based on comments in this thread:

I'd also be interested in hearing what you guys think about the changes in today's update, specifically regarding Gates zones. I encourage you guys to check it out and maybe fire up a post here, or on the General Boards, with your thoughts.

-- Maddoc

Well, the Eye of Zomm and Eye of Tallon spells are NOT fixed. Doors still won't open.

As for God zones, I don't venture into them, because if I die early on, instead of having an enjoyable time xping and exploring, I have a nice long CR & there goes my night /sigh

SOE needs to allow people to bind in some of these zones, and needs to add ports for Druids and Wizards. These two things would help, imo.

[Brodybeard]

After reading the patch message, my druid decided to start exploring Natimbi, since she visits the Wayfarer Camp to vendor mine. I didn't have much time last night, but had a good time and will probably return this weekend and report back.

The most amusing thing is that a little wood elf can forage and eat 15 pounds of Hynid Meat with no problem.

Does anyone have a feel for how the experience in Natimbi compares to a first tier PoP zone like the Plane of Nightmares?

[Leafrat]

Although I dread the grinding it will lead to, I kind of like more levels.

/ducks

No, but really. I like hearing about my SK friend solo'ing Faydedar, which, when I had to kill him for my epic, was a 25 person raid. I LIKE being able to solo Phinny for my wizard twink. When my character was leveling for the first time (to level 60), I heard about raids on these beasts, and being able to kill em by myself or with a few others is fun. Yeah, Its easier than it used to be. So what? Instead of thinking of it as "trivializing" content, think of it as "letting you experience it with less hassle". To speak from a tradeskill point of view, its why we bother skilling up. Its more fun to succeed than it is to fail...

[Naedea]

in hind sight maybe both Velious and Kunark provided you with this ability, im still looking for my kunark manual so cant say either way

Kunark spells went up to level 60.
Torpor, Divine Intervention, Sunstrike, etc.