Why the elitest attitudes?!

[xaanru]

Well, if you think things are bad here, try Serverwide.eqtraders

I made the mistake of asking a question there ONCE.

[Quinner Sparrowhawk]

I sense a disturbance in the force as if a million tradeskillers (ok maybe a thousand) released primal screams of angst.......

There is a dark undercurrent in America right now and the EQ Universe is not immune to its influence. We have been on a crash course of negativity brought on by a culture built on egocenticism. In everything there seems to be this mentality of us against them.

As for requests for information, a great deal of anger can be avoided by how the question is phrased. When someone posts for the very first time in the Tailoring section and asks "How can I use <insert illegal program here> to get my tailoring to 250" or "what items will make me the most money" there are bound to be old time craftsmen who are annoyed and feel they must correct the errant individual. And when someone drops in the channel for the very first time with a question like "How much will you suckers I mean tradeskillers pay for x and where can my bot farm tons of it" or "What's the recipe for misty thicket picnics" they are bound to get the same response.

One should post comments first before asking for help or chat in the channel before asking for a recipe. Why? Because it establishes a relationship. Anyone in sales or management could explain it to you (Yes, I have read Carnagie<sp>). Just blurting out questions makes the other posters or chatters feel demeaned, as if they only exist to provide answers.

I hope this all is considered constructive. My biggest barrier to posting more often is the fact that my school system has firewalled anything with EQ in it .

[TheGiantOne]

Hehe...

Okay I gonna try and be nice about this or some big ogre :::looks over my shoulder::
is gonna eat me alive.

My view is the following. Did I ask for any help IN GAME for advice on any of the 7 tradeskills I completed. Hmm..nope I got my information by going to eqtraders.com and using that "search" button.

Now I have no problem helping others reach my plateau in any tradeskill as I don't consider them as a threat or competition to me in any way, shape or form.

I do have a line of patience however when the following happens in-game.

Player A: Oh yes I heard you are a Grandmaster of all Tradeskills.

Me: Yes I am..how can I help you?

Player A: Can you tell me what the easiest way to get up to 250 in fletching is?

Me: Sure no problem. The fastest way if you don't have a problem with spending plat on the skill is making bows right in front of the Fletcher NPC in Shadowhaven.

Okay so no problems up to this point so all is good. This is what transpired over the next freaking 3 hours btw hehe after the first conversation I had.

I got at least 1 tell every 10 min from same person regarding how he was having problems from finding the NPC merchant in SH to how much he should invest in making bows to how he was having problems making skillup points to what material should he use for each type of bow to where was the best place he should sell the bow to he wanted to know how much he could make once he reached 250 in the skill in Fletching to weight allowance. You name it I answered his questions over a 3 hour period.

Okay in the meantime I have 20+ tell windows open helping others out also.

I held my tongue with the above person and helped him but this is what broke the straw on the camels back. This same person after all of that needs help in 2 other skills they are working on. I tried to be patient with him but I also started pointing him toward eqtraders.com of which I informed him WAS the best site for any info on tradeskilling out there. LOL...okay thought I was going to have a moment of rest when "presto" guess who is back? I spent the next 30 min explaining to him how to alt tab out of game to visit the website.

I don't mind helping people out in tradeskills as I have a huge vat of knowledge built up in my lil barbarian brain. But all of us GM Tradeskillers do have a breaking point after a while.

For instance put yourself in our place for a sec. You as the tradeskiller are hunting in an LDoN group which as you know is non-stop. Every 5 min you get to either see a tell screen pop up in front of you asking for help in tradeskilling or right in front of you in chat box. Now I know what some of you are thinking right now. Why don't I just stick my tells in another chat box all together and just minimize it. Thats great except then people who are asking for help think you are ignoring them.

So I have come up with a simple solution now. When I am tradeskilling I keep my tell windows open. When I am not I have an afk message stating that I am away hunting and can help out with tradeskilling later and to leave a message.

So before any one person uses the term "elitest" please put yourself in our place first. As a Grandmaster in any tradeskill also comes a responsibility and we know this. We do strive and help you out whenever we can. But you have to admit after seeing the same question asked over and over again on same boards it does get tedious and yes some people will get straight to the point and suggest "why don't you use search". What will it hurt if you spend just 15 more seconds using the search function and find out your answer. Or maybe you won't. If you don't then by all means post your question but at same time also post you couldn't find the answer anywhere on boards.

Please also remember we went through all the aggravation and frustration you are going through when we were working toward being a GM tradeskiller.

It all boils down to what I have read and yes god help me I have read these boards and threads everyday. The compilation done by the moderators of the boards, by the GM tradeskillers and anyone contributing information to these boards is a tremendous boon not only to the Tradeskill community but also to the average player out there who wants an item made. And the MOST BEAUTIFUL part is: Its available to everyone and not just tradeskillers by using "SEARCH" function.

Use search then post like this.

I have searched these boards and can't find an answer to my problem so would appreciate any help you can give me concerning :::whatever subject::.

But we all have to remember that on both sides of the equation there is a "REAL LIVE HUMAN BEING WITH FEELINGS" using that keyboard.

LOL..okay this elitest (woops never been called that) needs some sleep now.

[Rhyianna]

Nicely put Giant.

there are 2 sides to this (or possibly many sides?). i had been active on the local eq forum for a while. this was prior to my upgrading my machine btw... asked in the channel (politely i thought) that i couldnt find my notes on xyz simple recipe, was brain damaged and my equipment does not allow me to window out (really it would lock everyting up..) i was read the riot act on how no one is there to spoon feed anyone else.... really realy left a bad taste in my mouth for every asking a question again. i knew at least 60% of the folks in the channel too . /remove channel from autojoin.

i also have been asked questions on how to make things. i myself do not have the patience of Giant, wow, i applaud you. but how long can it take to direct someone here, give them a few pointers (read the faq, search the recipes, they sort by trivial too). also been asked to smith stuff. *i have all the components, can you come do this?* ummm, i am arse-deep in the deep atm, took me hours to get here, and i dont see a handy forge. feel free to ask me tho when i am not in the deep lol.

hrm, in a mood to blather today.

[Ngreth Thergn]

I no longer go to "our" channel.

I wish it was not named after our Site, because frankly people ARE rude on that channel. Yes some people DO deserve the rudeness... but I do find that many people do not even read the whole question... they just imidiately attack as soon as someone asks a question... This is one of the reasons we do the "We are not affiliated wiht the chat channel"

But such is life, we don't controll all things. and we try to keep it better here We are not perfect on it, but it is better than the chat channel.

[Sanna]

In a sense, it hurts to hear that said, Ngreth Sir. There are still a relatively large handful of us who consider ourselves to honestly care about what goes on in channel. Oddly enough, a portion of those regulars are the people who most often get used and abused for their knowledge, then get fed up with the abuse, then answer a question with 'go to eqtraders.com and use the search function', and then get called rude, elitist, or worse.


To sum up the general point of the post: We can't win. We either go out of our way to spoon-feed, or get walked over and hated.


There is always, of course, Lilosh's amusing story about the druid who was /convinced/ that the clay she needed for her epic could be bought, and angered the entire channel because she could not understand that she was being given clear, explicit, and correct directions on what to do.

There are so many people like that, 'noobs' if I may bend a term, that enter channel and want copious amounts of information spoonfed to them, and possibly complain about BSoDs if they try to window. BSoDs are not our problem; self-research in the long run is the best option. But there <i>simply is no way to say this without running a high risk of being called elitist</i> by people who don't deserve to be slinging that adjective around.


server.name01: How do I skill up fletching from 21-250?
channel.regular25: Go to eqtraders.com, look around, you'll find all the information there.
server.name01: I can't shrink the screen, my laptop will crash.
<i>(Sanna's note: My roommate plays on a laptop that barely meets game reqs and she can alt-enter juuust fine, thanks. Sure, it takes 3 minutes to load a page, but she doesn't BSoD.) </i>
server.name01: you guys won't tell me anything, what a bunch of lame-os.
marr.Tinkbang: /sigh....


Give a man a 1 lb saltwater tuna and he will eat for 30 minutes. Tell the man where to go to learn how to bake that tuna, and he will throw a hissy fit. We can't win.

We can help. We can teach. But 'you' have to be willing to learn. Otherwise 'you' WILL call us names, names we don't deserve, mind you, and if we ever try to defend ourselves, 'you' will merely repeat your barrage as though it answers everything. Too often I have seen the people slinging that E-word around because they're not getting tradeskills handed to them. I did my research. Do yours, please.


That's why it pains me, though I understand why, that the site has pulled away from the channel. I, for one, have only ever seen the channel defend the site.


-- Sanna

[Tinile]

One of the semi frequent questions in the channel (used to be more frequent) is:

newbie: What are the potc gifts?
oldie: stein, idol, sickle, pie, mtp, cabbage, robe, rod, champagne
newbie: in a forge?
oldie: yes
newbie: what skill do i need to have?
oldie: none, it's no fail. many have gotten smithing 1 on their combine.
newbie: cool, thanks
oldie: sure np

few minutes pass

newbie: how do you make potc robe?
oldie: go look it up at www.eqtraders.com
newbie: wth just tell me
oldie: uh no, it's quite an involved recipe and you should go look it up
newbie: complains a few times more about elitist tradeskill snobs
newbie: fine, how do you make the sickle?
oldie: /camp

This is not made up. This is not an exaggeration. In fact, this is a mild representation. It happens *all* the time, and usually a lot worse. People refuse to help themselves, and honestly, that is rather sad and one of the huge problems with society today. If it makes me a bad person to say "look it up on eqtraders.com" then fine, I'm a bad person.

[Ngreth Thergn]

Yup. But I do see people ask for something simple, and just becasue *YOUR* old laptop can task switch... doesn't mean someone else doesn't have a problem. (not that I think some people also don't lie about it... but...)

When it is a complex mess I see refering people to the site.

It jsut gets me when people instantly jump on the "don't be lazy" bandwagon (which I saw happen) before they have read the whole question. They don't bother to say "That is too complex to go over in chat... you really need to go hit the site" They don't bother to look and see that that particular question DOES have a simple one line answer... They imidiately jump on the "don't be lazy" bandwagon.

I am not saying people don't abuse the channel. But the Channel abuses people too :/

[eniamn]

i have told people the entire potc recipe as well as the recipe for mtps. when they wanted sub combines it was time to look t the sight though.

do ceramic lining take large or small blocks of clay?
is it the normal or the high quality firing sheet?

both should have gotten responses. now its the my learned list. i will never need to ask again.

[TheGiantOne]

Well...

Lets put it this way. I very rarely come onto the serverwide channel. I am kept busy enough just with my reputation as a Tradeskiller without the channel on.

Again all I can suggest is the following:

If you are really busy in game and cannot help someone don't just ignore the person or be rude to them. Say very nicely can we chat instead in about an hour when I am not so busy so I can really concentrate on helping you.

I have noticed a huge dropoff on questions being asked about recipies now since the new UI came out.

Also another suggestion I use all the time is the following: Player A comes to me working on say tailoring or smithing but doesn't have the plat to buy this and that or the patience to farm (yes we all hate that word) the items for the combines for the skillups so I hire them to go out and get stuff like I would need for leather padding or velium bricks etc. They get paid what the going rate is for buying in bulk for those materials. They save me time and they have the plat to go up the ladder in their skillups.

But I can understand how irritatting it could get if you get what we call a "leach" hehe who latches onto you and follows you all around asking you a ? every 10 min. But after a while very politely let them know that they could find the answers a lot quicker by going to eqtraders.com. Why? LOL...Because all of us tradeskillers don't have everything memorized in our brains to give an answer to every answer in tradeskills. Yes I even have to alt tab at times to refresh my memory on something. So I let the person asking a lot of questions this so one they don't feel slighted and in a way in the end they feel more confident in themselves when they find out the info they were looking for.

Now in answer also the the "hungry ogre". You are absolutely correct on some rudeness happening and yes it does reflect on the rest of the tradeskill community. But lets reflect on this for one minute. Just like the community in general in game has problems with economy because of duped plat, buying and selling of items for US dollars, etc this does fall over into the tradeskill community unfortunately for when someone buys a EQ account they are buying ALL the skills that come with that person's account including tradeskilling.

There is really no way to differ between a real tradeskiller who is not a GM in that skill and one that is a bought character. Therein lies a huge problem as what do you do in that case. Some of this resentment as we call it is caused from a overflow of questions brought forth by bought characters which is a shame indeed. How do you combat that? You really can't. You have to treat everyone the same and develop a reputation for yourself as a fair but hard working GM tradeskiller.

People think that GM Tradeskillers go for tradeskilling for either the titles or the plat they can make. Not so for the proud amongst us GM Tradeskillers who make many many many friends along the way to that title.

Another false truth is that GM Tradeskillers compete with each other. LOL..if anything we help each other out with controlling costs on items we make, on helping each other out with supplies we need at the lowest cost etc. Oh sure you get the occassional we are going to cutthroat your prices to try and put you out of business GM Tradeskiller and what do we do with them? We let them sell their items first and they go home happy and we are rid of them.

So the next time someone is is coming up the ladder asked you what to charge give him that advice as he/she will tell two friends and so on and so on and so on. You get the picture.

Hehe I am on a roll so another false truth is WE ONLY do TRADEskilling IN THE GAME period. Hmm..not so my tradeskilling character is also my main and only character in EQ and has been since April 1999.

Now I do have a confession though to make. One I have been doing tradeskilling way before I came to these boards posting. Two I very rarely post for a few reasons. I am too long drawn out in my explanantions and a few times I have seen people who have gotten answers from people turn around and flame the same people who are helping them and 3 I spend time in the game itself on my server helping out people who btw I have never been called an elitest or a pompous butt-head or said I ignored them or that I was greedy well ok except for the one time uhh..hmm..umm stole that large muffin from that ogre next door ::ducks::

With that in I go into the game again and leave you all with a message. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

And also remember that "TWO WRONGS DO NOT MAKE A RIGHT"

[TheGiantOne]

Okay..

I went onto the serverwide.eqtraders:eqtraders chat channel and most of what I saw on there in a 2 hour period wasn't so bad.

Several people were helped out and it looks like that channel has quieted down as far as the rudeness factor I have heard about at least for today

[Nhin Impious]

Several people were helped out and it looks like that channel has quieted down...

Bring an attitude of helpful courtesy into the channel and improve the average mood, it does more for the channel than any number of complaints about "elitest" attitudes-- or, frankly, any number of complaints about anything.

I stand by the channel. I wouldn't have met any number of good friends without it. I'm glad to see you found it helpful today.

Nhinx Aphsion

[Daikoku Ashikaga]

To be honest I not want to even take a stab at the channel, not comming from my spot in EQ. that doesnot bother me, I can find 99% ofwhat I want on the site anyhow

Dai

[Lilosh]

For the most part, the previous posters have hit it on the head.

We almost ALWAYS , in the channel, respond to recipe questions and "What's the fastest way to XXX" with "Check www.eqtraders.com , and use the wonderful searchable database they spent hours on".

And which point there's inevitably something a long the lines of

"Wut the helll, I came here for an answer , not for a dumbask remark".

At this point, all of the regulars come out with our little sharp teeth, and point out that we're doing other things, and we can't drop everything to figure out their subcombine problem for Complex_Recipe_001.

99.9% of all blowups I've seen have started with a POLITE referral to the site being met with a mean, rude remark from the questioner. :-)

There is the 0.1% that get started by grouches in the channel. (*whistles innocently*)

But by FAR, it's normally someone who takes "Please go check eqtraders.com" as a personal insult, and threat to their masculinity.

-Lilosh

[Moraganth]

I've only been onto the channel a couple short times.. looking for a certain hobbit to sacrific.. er.. just looking, i guess...

I found most people fairly helpful, but a few with absolutely no sense of humor. I'd hate to have to pay for their Prozac supply.. or whatever the current flavor is...