The Bazaar tradeskill market is shifting

[Marteeny]

Everyone has their own opinion on this subject.

If people were selling MTP's for 10-20pp and you sell at 10pp, you are not undercutting. You are keeping the market where it is at. If you went to 8pp, you are undercutting. Intentionally lowering the price to sell your stuff faster.

It is what eventually drives all the markets into the ground. Someone sees that you dropped to 8pp, and they go to 7pp. So-on and so-forth. Eventually there will be no point to them other than skilling because the sell prices are so low.

It is a free market, and nobody has the right to tell anyone how to handle their pricing. Although they do have a right not to like you for it.

[Silound]

Undercutting comes in two flavors. There is the bad type, which is where you intentionally price something under street value as to sell it faster, and there is hte good type, which is where you work as a balancing force. I'll use myself as an example of the good type:

I make MTP and sell at 10p each. The current going rate is 15-20p each, which is up from 3 months ago where it was steady at 5-7p each. The reason I keep steady at 10p each, is because if the price were to stay at 15-20, more people would start a baker mule and make their own, thus killing the market value and also adding more 200+ bakers to the already growing number who try to sell their wares. More bakers and more picnics equals more supply over hte demand, thus depreciating the market value of a picnic. My goal is to steady the market extremeties and control prices to keep the above from happening.

If I were to sell at a plat or two less than the lowest eprson just to sell mine first, then I would be an example of bad undercutting. This only leads to undercutter's wars and will also depreciate market value of picnics. This is bad, and is what I avoid doing. If someone starts to undercut me, I simply up my prices while he is on or has stock. As soon as I can, I lower my prices to a steady 10p each.


Also, the linked post above can explain a lot, although its truthfulness is questionable. The price of platinum online if you buy it has gone down o under 1 dollar per thousand plat (89 bucks per 100k last I looked). Even Prexus' low and flakey economy is shifting up again. It's actually profitable to farm things like FBSS' once again, as they jumped from 900p each to 2200 in the last month. Just about everything is less common now in the bazaar, and easily costs more. Even simple farmed tradeskill items are up in price. After my last post on this thread I checked bazaar, there were over 20 BD's for sale ranging from 290-450p each.

Less related to that, why is it I see more and more people buying Skyshrine MQ's again? A friend and I now farm them just to sell, nothign sells for less than 1000p...odd considering its easy to buy gear better than SS stuff for the smae price normally on Prexus.

[Lilosh]

Originally posted by Zzirf
but as I was getting closer to 250 I was ending up with piles and piles and PILES of them.

So does everyone else selling.

Originally posted by Zzirf
My reasons for doing this were not to screw over the person that was selling for 20pp, but that I wanted to sell them (crazy huh?).

But the thing is, so does everyone else.


You are not somehow different, or more deserving because of either of these two points. Everyone has piles of these, and EVERYONE wants to sell them.

Setting a price equal to the low end of what is currently being charged is one thing. But coming in, and charging 75% or 50% of what you see is a bad thing. Know why?


Because someone will come in and do it to you.

Zzirf: "Hrm... MTPs are going for 10-20p. I'll match the low end"

This isn't so bad , until:
Billy001: "Wow, all those MTPs at 10p. I'll be clever and put up 4000 at 8p! I'm so smart!"

then, 2 hours later:
Bobby001: "Wow... 4000 MTPs at 8p? Well, I think I'll just cut in line, and sell mine first. Im so clever, let's put these 500 up at 5p"


It just seems like undercutting is a way of saying that it's more important for you to come in, and sell your goods then people who were already trying to sell theirs. While, to most people, it IS more important to sell their own goods, it must be realized that this is acting out of self interest, and when others object to your lack of courtesy, IT MUST BE SEEN AS SUCH.

When a group a traders work together, to set a general price range for their goods, many people can share a market. When everyone deicdes that undercutting is the answer to sell OMG RIGHT NOW, insinuating that they have more of a right to sell then everyone else, then markets go to hell, and people cut their own legs off to have a market to themselves, and anger everyone in the process.


-Lilosh

[Itzena]

Sad thing is, the inflated prices on the other servers is the normal prices on Vallon.


Of course, if there is a dupe (and it's looking more and more likely, IMO) all the people who are posting 'Nope, no price changes on my server' are doing is attracting dupers to their server to stock up on cheaper gear.

Edit: Having checked the VZ bazaar (after not being able to log on to EQ for about a week) prices have gone up here as well.

[Zzirf]

I just wanted to say a quick 'thank you' to the people that responded to my question. I was hoping to get some reasonable and logical responses, and I did.

Thanks again,
Snoopp

[Jhales]

price wars and price fixing

When a group a traders work together, to set a general price range for their goods, many people can share a market. When everyone deicdes that undercutting is the answer to sell OMG RIGHT NOW, insinuating that they have more of a right to sell then everyone else, then markets go to hell, and people cut their own legs off to have a market to themselves, and anger everyone in the process

In a free market such as this, it's not my desire to share the market or make all the other sellers happy. What I want is to sell as many items as I can for as much as I can, thus making the most profit. If 5 traders have 200 MTPs each for 20p (for example), then yes, I'm going to come in and sell mine for 18p. That's the way supply and demand works. When there are more sellers and thus more MTPs for sale, then the prices will come down. If another seller comes on with 200 more MTPs and puts them up for 17p each, that's just a larger supply bringing down the price. When the supply is really high, like if 20 people are selling 200 MTPs each, then the price very probably would come down to 5p or so.

While, to most people, it IS more important to sell their own goods, it must be realized that this is acting out of self interest, and when others object to your lack of courtesy . .

A free economy is based on self interest. I want to make as much as I can from the goods I sell. How much anyone else makes (be it 0p or 100k) doesn't matter much at all to me. And I don't want to give anyone the "courtesy" of letting them sell at artificially inflated prices at the expense of not being able to sell as much myself.

If someone wants to sell their MTPs for 30p each, he needs to accept that he's probably not going to sell all too many, though he will make a nice profit on each sell. On the other hand, someone selling them for 4p each won't make as much profit per sell, but will sell a lot more MTPs. It's each seller's choice where on that curve they want to be, where they think they can make the most profit. If I feel I can make the most profit on the lower end of that price curve, that's where I'm going to set my price.

No one can sell MTPs for 30p each and expect to sell a lot of them at the same time. And no seller has any right to dictate to others that they must sell at a given minimum. If a group of sellers agree that they are all going to sell for a minumum price that's fine, but they aren't in the right to demand that everyone else join in on their price fixing.

- - -

A good trader can also profit from other traders' willingness to undercut and "sell OMG RIGHT NOW". I'm always seeing things for sale that are brought down by price wars. Tea leaves (for example) will be 6p on one trader, 7p on another, 9 on a third. I'll buy them all, mark them up to 30-50p each, and sell them within a week. I don't know, some people might not like that I do that, but that's they way things work in this economy.

I'm not trying to upset anyone, I'm just trying just to make profit where I see opportunities, be it buying goods that are marked too low from price wars and reselling them, or undercutting other traders myself.

[Lothay]

This has gotten down to rants...

*punt*

[Lilosh]

Re: price wars and price fixing

Originally posted by Jhales
In a free market such as this, it's not my desire to share the market or make all the other sellers happy. What I want is to sell as many items as I can for as much as I can, thus making the most profit.

Originally posted by Jhales
A free economy is based on self interest. I want to make as much as I can from the goods I sell. How much anyone else makes (be it 0p or 100k) doesn't matter much at all to me.

As I mentioned , this is the prevailing viewpoint. But when the rest of the vendors call you impatient and selfish, Nine times Out of ten , the undercutter won't admit to it. They claim that they're just doing what's "Fair" and "right" because they have "needs".


Like I said, there's nothing wrong with giving a finger to professional courtesy. Nothing makes you play well with the people you co-exist with. No rules or laws say you have to.

Just don't expect other people to call it anything other than it is.


And, as previously mentioned, a group of people constantly pushing prices down only hurt themselves. A group of people working together will prosper a lot more then a group of people infighting, and cut-throating.

-Lilosh

[Soulfiend]

Save the Bluediamonds, and make Artisan seals and sell them for a fortune

[Aeght]

Silly question, but who should decide what any given persons accaptable profit margin should be? Or their acceptable losses for that matter?

This controversy dates way back to the early days of EQ, when there barely were trade skills...

I was not a tradesman back then... but I do remember a commodity known as the Stien of Moggok (brownie badge to anyone who can tell me its original name!).

The stein is quested, and still to this day a rather nice item... int 10 primary/secondary all/all.

Those doing the quest in those days started to farm it, and would sell it for up to 1k, rather a lot of money in those days...

But others started to learn of the quest... and started to farm it... and as it is not that difficult a quest (for chanters), started offering stiens at lower prices.

I still to this day remember the person who taught me the quest doing shouts screaming at those sellers he felt were offering the stien for less than he felt they were worth. His arguements were based on what he felt his time was worth.... on what he could make not farming the quest...

He could not seem to get it through his head that a 12th lvl chanter can do the quest just fine, and their opportunity costs are much lower (keep in mind no books back then and usually no ports... quest took at least 3 hours).

Funny thing is the market low back then was about 200pp....

I often see stiens in the bazaar for 300 -500 pp in these days where plat is much easier to get.. but only rarely do I see them at all....

It is all supply and demand, and opportunity costs..... no malice, no conspiracy... just an economy at work....

[Lone_War]

Of selling...

Ahh the glowing stein quest... just sold 2 the other day for 750pp, one of them was probably the 3rd or 4th made on Tunare...

As for undercutting is it always undercutting?

I am currently gutting the market on Tunare on Ethereal Sheets and Rings. I have priced mine at roughly half the price of the next highest seller.

Why did I do this? Because a 1600% profit on rings and 3300% profit on sheets is enough profit for me. You see, my only cost for these sheets and rings is the temper, which costs ~3pp to make. The bricks are free to me, and as a matter of fact for the last several months, before I needed them I was selling them to merchants, because I got more than I could use in my standard experience groups. If those other sellers want to they can happily buy my stock and resale it, it wont bother me, but otherwise I am happy at my sell through rate and thus see no reason to either raise nor lower my prices.

As for baking... umm baking is free to level up for the most part, I have spent maybe 100pp to get to my current level of 206 skill, and I estimate that it should take me ~20pp to get that to 222. And about a year ago I sold 5 hobgoblin surprises at 5kpp each thus allowing baking to pay for itself forever...

[Melinia]

Sometimes undercutting isnt to be mean or to control the market. I have an alt/bazaar mule that was chuck full of stuff. I had other stuff to sell but needed to get rid of the stuff that was gathering dust (the pelts were starting to stink). So one weekend I cut all my prices in half.. literally everything but one ruby veil. pelts, silks, gems, crushed gems, enchantie spells, pots (even at 5gp the pots didnt move). It was the only way to sell anything. After clearing out 2 bags I was finally able to bring stuff back up to the usual "market prices".
I always check the prices while in trader to make sure I'm offering the "fair market price", but sometimes one has to make room for the fresh inventory.
What sells one day, might not sell the next. For awhile i was able to sell various pelts for 15-20pp each with in minutes of going into trader. Now at 10pp for most of the pelts they still dont move. what is a girl to do?

[Aeght]

Precisely... Traders are selling to make a profit... if the market is saturated, then traders will lower prices until the market stabilizes.

Cartels and Oligopolies only work where there is limited entry into the industry... And frankly, that is what those complaining about undercutters really want... a marketing board or some other form of cartel... Sell at 'their' price, or be labeled some sort of nasty anti-vendor person....

[eniamn]

Re: Of selling...

Originally posted by Lone_War
As for baking... umm baking is free to level up for the most part, I have spent maybe 100pp to get to my current level of 206 skill, and I estimate that it should take me ~20pp to get that to 222. And about a year ago I sold 5 hobgoblin surprises at 5kpp each thus allowing baking to pay for itself forever...

make some hmp and mtp. alchemy components ****. buying a stack at a time i can lose several hundred pp for a run. i am not quite planar yet so dont suggest it. prices for planar parts are rediculous.

[Quesci]

I gotta agree with Lone_War on the undercutting part. I have no problem going with the crowd on an item with moderate markup. Golden Idols, Mistletoe Sickles, other high ticket items with a margin of profit of about 30-50%, I will stay with the pack.

But darnit, it costs me 5pp to make a Kaladim Constitutional--and that's if I pay Bazaar prices for CE. I am NOT gonna price it at 25pp. That's insane!

Ethereal sheets cost me 25pp to make if I buy the bricks in the Bazaar. Ethereal rings cost 15. I price them at 100 and 40pp respectively. I would feel slimy selling somehing for more than 4 times the cost to make it.

Ethereal silk swatches and cured ethereal energy are worse. I am not high enough to make them yet, but my goodness the threads sell on merchants for next to nothing! I could pick up 1000 of them on a run through PoT with just a couple of K. I look in the Bazaar and there are none for sale, or when someone makes them they price them at 300pp. How do they sleep at night? (Answer: on top of piles of money).