LDoN points

[kiztent]

Originally posted by Traska
I'm not asking for a silver platter. I'm asking to be allowed to obtain my spells. A 20th level character trying to obtain all three 14th level spells would need to do a *minumum* of 75 adventures to get all three. Admittedly, he would be leveling during this time, so he'd outgrow the need for the 14th level ones before he even managed to gather the points for a single one.

All I can say is don't EVER start a shaman if you feel this way.

Personally I can't be bothered to arse about with the traps (playing with chests causes losses), so not being able to get the spells is utterly meaningless to me.

[Heartsong_Steelsoul]

reasonably be able to afford it from points earned in LDoN dungeons, unless they die about a dozen times each level and succeed in every last quest they undertake. And even that might be overly optimistic. If your character isn't already twinked, then you shouldn't be in LDoN, period. You should be out acquiring gear, and you can't do that in LDoN.

Disagree. I am a carefully geared but untwinked cleric (mostyl these days) and I am getting good money. After I buy my 34 spells, I will still have 300-400 plat in the bank, and still saving up to buy some nice stuff. I've also gotten 2 +2 wis augments and some minor resist augments, which helps make my gear last longer, too.

[Silound]

I like the idea someone posted of your level-15 = # of points you get, and I support the thought that spells may be too hard to get at some levels. *But* I dont see it unbalanced. In the end, I still see it just as fair as the xp-level balance system in groups. And I understand that on Test, they are playing with the points per adventure/level ratio to better it off. You are missing in your counter arguments the point that by gaining 6 levels (theoretical) you also will be getting the maximum number of points possible when you group with people your level. So it's a point-level curve, not a straight line. There is a drastic difference between gaining 20 points towards a 410 point spell than gaining 51 points towards it. A 150% increase in points per adventure. You went from 21 adventures at 20pt each to about 8 at 51 each

Example starting at level 58 with 0% towards level 59, average group level is about your level, normal difficulty:

Adventure 1: 20 points, you now have 58 2/5 XP and 20 points.
Adventure 2: 20 points, you now have 58 4/5 XP and 40 points.
Adventure 3: DING! you now get about 26 points. You now have 66 points and 59 1/5 XP
Adventure 4: 26 points, you now have 92 points and 59 3/5 XP
Adventures 5-#: Point/level curve increases until...
Adventure #: DING 65! 51 points. You now have X number of points and are level 65. Further adventures from here net you 51 per. You should by now have collected near 400 points by now, and further collections are drastically simplified because you now get the max number of points per adventure.

Thus, you gain your points required, and you happen to hit 65, which is a good thinig, no? What many seem to still be missing is that LDoN advances you level wise, assisting in your goal by a sideways method. That is why an example saying you would need 75 adventures at level 20 to get level 16 spells is unbalanced. You would more realisitically need closer to 40 adventures, and in the process should be near level 25 at least.

My post about old-world and not having it easy is directed towards the path of no one had it easy in those days so dont complain about how easy it is now, not towards "Ok, lets remove all these nice additions and fixes." It was directed at people who have started since the release of SoL, and have never experienced the hardships a lot of us did, but yet still complain about how hard it is. Since some of us suffered through old-world (Pre Kunarkian times especially), and we know what it's like to have to grind out something and end up getting it at a point where it's no longer as useful to you as it was when you started.

Sil

[Leana Soulwarden]

Rewde,

Please, don’t take what I say to be a flame. It is merely an observation, something for you to consider. It appears to me that you are bound and determined to be unhappy. Regardless of what people say, you will debate it, painting the expansion in the worst possible light. If someone says items drop in the dungeon, you immediately claim you have never seen any. They say money is pretty good; you say you can get better money elsewhere. I could go on, but the point is made. Consider evaluating your viewpoint again, and considering what others have said. Perhaps it isn’t as bad as you think it is.

If it is really that bad, then go elsewhere in the game and don’t play in LDON. It really comes down to one point. You either enjoy playing in LDON, which makes it worth while doing, or you don’t. If it isn’t worth your time, all of the old zones are still there, complete with all of their uber loot.

Now, I’m going to agree with you on one thing. Spells are way overpriced in this expansion. Most of the spells appropriate for level require an insane amount of effort. That really goes for equipment too. To get a fully upgraded BP appropriate for my level will require me to go on 80+ successful missions. SOE wasn’t dumb about the way they set this up. They aren’t just handing out uber loot to people. It will take considerable work to get what you want, more so than you can get camping specific items already in the game. By the time I could do enough missions to buy FT2 boots in LDON, I could probably win 3 pairs of Boots of Flowing Slime, camping CT.

There are zone drops. I have upgraded two pieces of my equipment since I started playing LDON. I have seen two other pieces drop that would upgrade two other pieces of my gear. Although I am not the best equipped level 65 in the game, I consider my gear fair for a pre-planar cleric. Yet, I have killed mobs that could upgrade four slots of my equipment. I certainly don’t consider that bad.

The cash income in the game is as others have described. I did two back to back missions last night and earned about 800 pp. Granted, both missions were long running, but that cash is respectable, and much better than planar drops. I am certain that cash drops in lower levels is considerably less, but what you described sounded pretty reasonable, too.


Now, for a bit of advice:

Don’t expect to deck yourself out in LDON armor, regardless of level. Anyone that thinks that they are going to do that had better take a reality check. The amount of effort required to do that would be insane or the armor you deck yourself out in would be useless at your level. Instead, get good equipment elsewhere in the game, and then fill in a few of the holes in your gear with key LDON pieces.

Spells are insanely expensive for what they provide. Consider not getting the spells, or consider buying lower level spells. You can always upgrade them later.

If you are leveling up, consider saving your points. Your level will quickly outpace most anything you can afford to purchase. You’ll be glad to have the points later.

Contrary to what people tell you, chests are not worthless (almost worthless, but not quite). I have seen drops from chests that include two dex augments, one wis augment, on hp augment, and some pretty good money items. However, chests are extremely dangerous to deal with prior to completing your mission. A chest would have to have a pretty sweet item in it for me to consider failing a mission worth opening the chest. You have 30 minutes to clean up in a dungeon after the adventure is over. This is the time to open chests. Augury spells are nice. They will tell you if the chest is even in your domain of influence without risking setting off traps.

Not every expansion suits every player. If this one is not for you, do something else.

At any rate, good luck and good hunting,

[Eumerin]

Originally posted by Silound
I like the idea someone posted of your level-15 = # of points you get, and I support the thought that spells may be too hard to get at some levels. *But* I dont see it unbalanced. In the end, I still see it just as fair as the xp-level balance system in groups. And I understand that on Test, they are playing with the points per adventure/level ratio to better it off. You are missing in your counter arguments the point that by gaining 6 levels (theoretical) you also will be getting the maximum number of points possible when you group with people your level. So it's a point-level curve, not a straight line. There is a drastic difference between gaining 20 points towards a 410 point spell than gaining 51 points towards it. A 150% increase in points per adventure. You went from 21 adventures at 20pt each to about 8 at 51 each

Example starting at level 58 with 0% towards level 59, average group level is about your level, normal difficulty:

Adventure 1: 20 points, you now have 58 2/5 XP and 20 points.
Adventure 2: 20 points, you now have 58 4/5 XP and 40 points.
Adventure 3: DING! you now get about 26 points. You now have 66 points and 59 1/5 XP
Adventure 4: 26 points, you now have 92 points and 59 3/5 XP
Adventures 5-#: Point/level curve increases until...
Adventure #: DING 65! 51 points. You now have X number of points and are level 65. Further adventures from here net you 51 per. You should by now have collected near 400 points by now, and further collections are drastically simplified because you now get the max number of points per adventure.

Thus, you gain your points required, and you happen to hit 65, which is a good thinig, no? What many seem to still be missing is that LDoN advances you level wise, assisting in your goal by a sideways method. That is why an example saying you would need 75 adventures at level 20 to get level 16 spells is unbalanced. You would more realisitically need closer to 40 adventures, and in the process should be near level 25 at least.

My post about old-world and not having it easy is directed towards the path of no one had it easy in those days so dont complain about how easy it is now, not towards "Ok, lets remove all these nice additions and fixes." It was directed at people who have started since the release of SoL, and have never experienced the hardships a lot of us did, but yet still complain about how hard it is. Since some of us suffered through old-world (Pre Kunarkian times especially), and we know what it's like to have to grind out something and end up getting it at a point where it's no longer as useful to you as it was when you started.

You're overlooking a very basic fact here. This game depends HEAVILY on gear. Check other messages (on this board and others) and you'll see the complaints about characters trying to tank in PoP zones with 900 ac and 2k hp. Yes, level is important, but gear is also critical as well, and you can level til your blue in the face, but you're still not staying in my group if you don't have some decent gear.

Yes, it is a big draw to level up because at this time, five levels will provide a roughly 250% increase in points earned (I'm earning about 20 per trip at level 60). But what's the point of getting my paladin to level 65 if I can't buy the gear to properly tank?

[Rewde]

Originally posted by Leana Soulwarden
Rewde,

Please, don’t take what I say to be a flame. It is merely an observation, something for you to consider. It appears to me that you are bound and determined to be unhappy. Regardless of what people say, you will debate it, painting the expansion in the worst possible light. If someone says items drop in the dungeon, you immediately claim you have never seen any. They say money is pretty good; you say you can get better money elsewhere. I could go on, but the point is made. Consider evaluating your viewpoint again, and considering what others have said. Perhaps it isn’t as bad as you think it is.

Like I said, I enjoy the crawl. And the people I have been meeting are great. I have seen augments drop. I even got to claim a couple of them. The money, well, evidently I am not as high a level as it seems of most people visiting this board, but, when you are only getting between 20 and 50pp for 90 min worth of work, it's not bad, but not great either.
Again, I have NEVER seen an item drop that was not just vendor fodder. I am not saying that good items do not exist, I just have not seen them.

Now, I’m going to agree with you on one thing. Spells are way overpriced in this expansion. Most of the spells appropriate for level require an insane amount of effort.

Well, when they implement spells for characters of a level, 14, that can't even get into the dungeons, that is just plain stupid.

Now, for a bit of advice:

Don’t expect to deck yourself out in LDON armor, regardless of level. Anyone that thinks that they are going to do that had better take a reality check. The amount of effort required to do that would be insane or the armor you deck yourself out in would be useless at your level. Instead, get good equipment elsewhere in the game, and then fill in a few of the holes in your gear with key LDON pieces.

I can't say as I really want to get any of the LDoN armour, just the augments that are for sale to upgrade the armour I do have. (I'll have to get a magelo profile so you can see what i currently have)

If you are leveling up, consider saving your points. Your level will quickly outpace most anything you can afford to purchase. You’ll be glad to have the points later.

Don't take this the wrong way, but unless you are lvl 65 and full of AAs, then you will be doing some kind of leveling when you are in these dungeons. I have completed 2 of 10 missions. I have a whopping 7 points saved up. Not every mission is successful, and if all of yours have been, I am happy for you(you as in genreal population not singleing anyone out). I am very quickly outpacing the spells I can get. And with the luck I have had in completing missions, I will have extremely outpaced the spell level by the time I have acrued enough points to get them.

But, back to the original point of the message, is that I believe that the point system is skewed. I am not the only one. There are people who have posted here, and on other boards, about the discrepancies in point variations per level, 51 points at level 65 and 20 at 60 and 0 to 1 at 20. And, the spells should be of lower point value, or NPC vendored for pp.

But, then again, that is just my opinion.

[Axterix EnObelix]

Don’t expect to deck yourself out in LDON armor, regardless of level. Anyone that thinks that they are going to do that had better take a reality check. The amount of effort required to do that would be insane or the armor you deck yourself out in would be useless at your level. Instead, get good equipment elsewhere in the game, and then fill in a few of the holes in your gear with key LDON pieces.

The problem here is that with current costs on the low level gear, there is no filling in. By the time you can afford 1 or 2 items, you've moved up to the next rank.

Low level armor and spells need to take into account that people are levelling and levelling quickly at that range. While at 50+, it takes 10 or so adventures to level, in the lower levels, it does not. It works at high level, but not at low.

If, between the time a person got the recommended level for armor set X and the recommended level for the next set, he got enough points to buy 5 or 6 pieces of armor of that req level, that'd be fine. At current costs, you can't. Spells are the same deal. By the time you can afford a spell, you need the next level of that spell. It's better, you're going to want it, so why waste points on the previous one when you have to get the next one anyway?

You wind up constantly looking to the future. Because you don't want to spend hard earned points on things you've already outgrown when you can afford them.

It's silly and rather stupid. Having played in it with some of my lower level characters, I've decided there isn't any point. Stuff the level of my low level alts costs too much. Don't make enough points to bother to save for the future. Level faster in other places where groups form faster and make more xp per time period, when you factor in group forming, buffing, looking for replacements, and the like. Better to go the whole outdoor route.

Just not worth it.

[Zacatac]

I think they should make the spells you buy with points tradeable. That way a level 65 can buy some of the lower level spells with the points and offer them up for sale for pp.
It's going to take a very long time for the lower level people to get those spells.

As for the armor and other augments, I think the system is about right. You really don't want level 40 people earning 1500 points a week and getting armor that's beyond Velious quest armors.

Yes, the level 65's get the most points. But they also have the best armor and most AA's. And those 1492 point items still take awhile to save up for them. And if a level 65 is "upgrading" by buying those 1492 point items, that says something for the quality of the armor.

[Eumerin]

The game already has tools in place to keep low levels from getting overpowered armor. Simply slap a "required level" on the armor, and the problem is solved. In fact, all of the armor has a recommended level on it at present.

However, that doesn't change the fact that even if they increased the points earned at lower levels, you'd still level up faster than you'd earn enough points to buy a single piece of armor. While I spend most of my time with my main character, I have used my alts a little, and my level 24 enchanter earned a half level of experience during a quest. That means that he earns roughly 2 points per level. No, I don't think he's in danger of buying the high level armor any time soon, even if he earned 5 times as many points per adventure. He is, however, in danger of not being able to afford anything remotely resembling useful gear for his own level.