Announcement

**Takeshi** · 09-18-2003, 12:18 PM

A better comparison might be the various armor sets. For you the intended set is the rec. level 32 leather from miragul's. 48 points per piece. So it would take you about 16 adventures to get one piece of this. If you compare to the level 65 armor (two sets, 760 and 1490 points), it would take about 16 wins for the cheap or 30 wins for the expensive armor. It seems to me that this is how they balanced the point scheme. The better effect and stat augments are likely intended for higher level characters.

Now, where their scheme breaks down is that the level 35 character will probably gain a couple levels in the 16 adventures it takes to get a piece of armor, and will definitely gain alot of levels in the time it takes to buy a full suit of 8 pieces. You'd probably be in the range for the level 48 armor by then. Maybe this planned obsolesence seemed like a good idea to them, but I think it stinks for lower level players of ldon. The lower level player will be better served by gearing up in the bazaar and saving adventure points, as few as they gain, for later on in their career. Level 65's of course don't have to worry about out leveling their armor.

**Eumerin** · 09-18-2003, 12:32 PM

There's an even better example than the armor.

Specifically, I'm talking about the new spells that were introduced, and the costs for them. Take, for example, the new inspect/disarm/unlock spells that the casters received. The level 14 spell costs 26 points, which doesn't sound like much until you realize that at level 20, you're only getting 1 point per trip (if you're lucky - I've heard of the odd person getting no points for a successful low level job), and earning half a level of experience. At that rate, you'll be 30 before you can afford your first spell (let alone all 3), and be more interested in the level 24 spells of the same line anyway...

Well you would be, except that the level 34 spells (which are the final version) are just around the corner and purchaseable for a 'mere' 60 points.

**Rewde** · 09-18-2003, 01:19 PM

To be honest, I am not worried about getting any armour from the adventure points. At level 36, I have equipment that a level 50+ would be pleased to have. I do wear a couple piece of halfling cultural that I won't have full stats on until I am around 46. I currently sport a wisdom of 247. I hate to say that I NEED some form of mana regen, besides the drogmar I have, but, I do. It takes over 6 min to get my mana back to full inside a dungeon. I have only been on 2 adventures with an enchanter in the group. I would very much like to get the FT item that is purchaseable. I just don't like the time I am going to be required to spend in the dungeons in order to slowly acrue the amount of points I am going to need to get it. And, Karana forbid, if I fail on a dungeon, which I have failed 5 so far, I am getting experience and no points. So, I then have to go and do more adventures, meaning more time spent in the dungeons and not getting goals met and other content seen.

I think they should have made the starting level 14, and at each level you get 1 more point that you are able to get if you succeed in your dungeon until you get to the 51 points you can get at level 65. But, that is just the opinion of 1 person. I am sure that the people at Sony are much wiser and more aware of what players need than I am. Up until this came out I soloed. I liked it. I did group with others, but at my choice. But...... nevermind..completely different gripe.. dont' want to derail the original thought that the point system sucks for lower level players.

**Iannyen** · 09-18-2003, 02:26 PM

Interesting. I think they actually got it right.

You get good xp for your level running adventures, good loot and cash loot drops, and you get bonus points with which to buy armor. Can you go to a spoiler site and expect to be able to get the best armor and gear from an expansion in a week? I'd hope not.

Items with FT (you call them baubles??) go for 60+k in the bazaar on EMarr. Heck, the only FT item that I can think of that goes for less than 30k is the Solstice Earring. There no reason that you, at 36, should reasonable expect to fill slots with FT items.

Get used to time sinks. I'm not trying to be harsh, but the tradeskills required, not to mention camps required for the 8th shawl is unlike anything you have ever ever ever seen. I compare it to an epic.

And you're working on your epic. That in itself is hard work. This isnt' the Legend of Zelda. You can't beat the game in a week. Take your time and relax, have fun. Good stuff happens when you slow down and play.

Enjoy the ride, get some more levels under your belt. Meet people, join a guild. Set up a scheduled play group. Meet every Tuesday night at 6pm EST for adventure.

And if you aren't having fun, don't play. Its a game. Its only a time sink if you let it be.

**Sylphan** · 09-18-2003, 02:50 PM

This is a copy of a little diatribe I posted elsewhere:

Suppose I start a new enchanter and get him to level 20. At that point I play exclusively in LDoN and save all my points for spells. I win the adventures every single time, never failing for any reason, but it does take more than an hour for each adventure because I'm not twinked (much). All my gear (including every one of my Kunark spells, PoP spells, etc.) comes from bazaar. I never hunt in Kunark, Velious, Luclin, or even Odus at all, ever, not even to do quests... so of course I'll never get my epic or quest armor or anything from any raid anywhere.

I decide to save all my points to buy LDoN spells. No items whatsoever, just spells. Therefore I never adventure in Guk or Miragul's either, because my spells aren't sold in those themes. I also skip some of the less important spells such as Ordinance, Bounce, Protection of Alendar, and the lower level trap spells, only going for the spells that are irreplacable:

Wuggan's Greater Appraisal (L34, 60 points)
Wuggan's Greater Extrication (L34, 60 points)
Wuggan's Greater Discombobulation (L34, 60 points)
Reflect (L58, 450 points)
Bulwark of Alendar (L63, 650 points)
Color Cloud (L63, 650 points)
----------------
totals: 1930 points by L63

Level 20s often get zero points per successful adventure, I kid you not... but let's assume I always get at least one point. As I level up I'll get more and more points. Here's how it will probably break down:

Levels : adventures : points

20-29 : 25 : 25
30-39 : 33 : 100
40-49 : 40 : 240
50-54 : 25 : 300
55-59 : 30 : 600
60-62 : 20 : 650
63-64 : 15 : 750
----------------
totals: 188 : 2665

I'll be able to afford all three trap spells sometime around level 44. I'll ding level 63 before I get enough points to buy my level 63 spells. And this is a pretty extreme example. Any normal player would want to experience some of the other zones in EQ, do his epic quest, do some raids, buy some items with type 3 slots, etc., and would probably fail a few adventures. So he'd end up with far fewer LDoN points.

I believe that the points rewarded for successful adventures should be increased, or perhaps the point cost of spells should be decreased.

**Silound** · 09-18-2003, 02:50 PM

They got this expansion exactly right. No matter wat your reason gor doing an adventure is, you will walk out with some XP/aaXP, and you will walk out with some cash (I average 250pp in a 45 min adventure, my celric averages 50). You complain about high levels getting the good stuff, or it taking too long to accumulate points. This is why the expansion is good: As you adventure to accumulate those points, you aslo level up, which allows you to get more points per adventure. Of course you are going to get rewarded well if you are level 65, after all, you dont thing a GM *gave* that person level 65, do you? You can hit 65 easy in LDoN from level 37, and by my calculations, caome out with approximately 130kpp and near 8,000 adventure points. That's pretty good in my opinion. Congo rats SoE, this was well designed.

Silound

**kiztent** · 09-18-2003, 03:21 PM

It'll take you a lot longer to get FT2 outside of LDoN Rewde, considering you'd need to be level 65 with probably 30ish AA before you could app to a guild that would kill any target that would drop a FT item (I think anyway. maybe you could sneak in to one at 60).

Or you could buy an ornate leather bracer in the bazaar. Which you can't use until you are level 55.

Or you could do the 8th coldain prayer shawl, except you won't have a prayer of doing it before level 60 unless you have alot of friends or cash (Velium hounds hit pretty hard you see).

The problem, such as it is, that leads you to believe that you need mana regen is that you have too much mana. A level 36 with 247 int? Insane.

Too much mana leads to obscene med times. Try dropping your mana pool down to 1300 or so, you'll notice a lot quicker mana regen. You'll also run OOM chain casting a lot more.

**Iannyen** · 09-18-2003, 03:31 PM

I will agree that the spells should either be drops or researchable. I compare spells for casters with weapons for melee. Its our primary function. Plenty of nice weapons drop on adventures, lets see some spells drop.

**Eumerin** · 09-18-2003, 04:18 PM

Sil - 245 pp in a 45 min adventure?

I don't think I've ever pulled in that much even staying in the dungeon the full 2 hours.

And for those who bring up item drops - I can honestly say that I haven't seen a single one since the first day (when I saw one, maybe 2). I know the mini-bosses drop the items, but I honestly haven't seen a single mini-boss since the first day. Even a spot marked 'mini-boss' on the map didn't have one.

So what it comes down to is that I'm basically relying on a so-so cash flow (I could do much better in LGuk, except that LGuk no longer gives exp), NO drops (since nothing but mini-bosses drops gear), and a paltry sum of points to keep me equipped.

Yeah, right...

And while the points seem about right at 65, I think the points are WAAAAAY too low at low levels. As was pointed out, just the basic spells take an awfully long time to acquire. I don't think Rewde has the right idea about points - I think a straight linear increase rate would make it too easy for lower levels to get the high end gear - but I do think the point totals for under 65 characters need to be bumped up. 20 points at level 60 is a joke.

**Morgrist** · 09-18-2003, 04:37 PM

Agreed. The point gains are sad at low levels-I won't be seeing my plate armor for two levels of xp,at this rate. Assuming I did nothing but adventures.

The spells should have been vendored,as without them 1/2 of the objects in LDoN can't be touched.

**Rewde** · 09-18-2003, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by kiztent
It'll take you a lot longer to get FT2 outside of LDoN Rewde, considering you'd need to be level 65 with probably 30ish AA before you could app to a guild that would kill any target that would drop a FT item (I think anyway. maybe you could sneak in to one at 60).

Hmmmm.. Boots of Flowing Slime. FT III, available to anyone in the bazaar when they are for sale, anywhere from 65k to 85k depending on the day, required level of 51. Other items also available in the bazaar too for larger amounts, sometimes less, of pp. I already have my Earring of the Solstice, which has FT I (but that does not kick in until level 44) and my Xanthe's Earring of Nature. It comes down to plat. I can get it. I GM'd baking. I am almost constantly in trader mode selling MTPs when I am not adventuring or baking. My other skills are doing well too.

Or you could do the 8th coldain prayer shawl, except you won't have a prayer of doing it before level 60 unless you have alot of friends or cash (Velium hounds hit pretty hard you see).

I am currently working on my 5th shawl, thanks. Yes, I do have friends that will be helping me acquire some of the components for the last 3. I do know what is required to finish this quest. My friends have theirs and have told me about the arduous journey it took to get it.

The problem, such as it is, that leads you to believe that you need mana regen is that you have too much mana. A level 36 with 247 int? Insane.

I wish my int was as high as my wisdom.. lol.. Seriously, I see no problem with having a wisdom of 247 at level 36. With that, I can generally solo quite well and still have mana left over from fighting mobs. It has also helped me when it comes to doing my tradeskills. But, when it comes to being the main healer in the group, it doesn't fly, especially in the LDoN dungeons. I have not completed a dungeon yet being the main healer.

Too much mana leads to obscene med times. Try dropping your mana pool down to 1300 or so, you'll notice a lot quicker mana regen. You'll also run OOM chain casting a lot more.

There is no difference whether I lower my mana pool or not, as I am constantly being moved at about only 20% of mana when in the dungeons. It still regens in the same amount of time. I would just like to be able to acrue more in the amount of time given for med breaks. Even if my mana pool was cut in half, and they let me med to full mana, that is time taken from the adventure that could be better put to use.

Then again, I could just get an enchanter in the group and get clarity every time it wore off. I have had 1 group with an enchanter, the MT went LD and never came back and the cleric and I wound up doing the meleeing. It is not a guarantee for every group to have a chanter. I could, however, just bide my time until I hit level 46 when I can get KEI. I don't get the luxury of being able to get it at lower levels like a lot of the people now playing were able to do.

Next thing I know, people are going to tell me I don't know how to play my character, or manage my mana. I do. People don't want to be sitting around waiting on mana regen in these dungeons, they want to get the task finished. As soon as I have enough mana regened to snare, root, DS, succor if need be, we are on the move again. It's just the way it is.

What it comes down to is that you are racing against time. In LDoN time = points. If you don't finish it in time, no points. Plain and simple. That is what people are there for. Not to go from level to level. They want the points. I want the points. I want my group to get the points.

**Eumerin** · 09-18-2003, 05:02 PM

There is an FT item available in Hollowshade, although getting it requires manipulating the Hollowshade War, and either a full group or an extremely high level. I *think* it drops off of one of the Owlbear bosses, although I could be wrong. Its also No Drop, so you'd need to loot it yourself.

I think there are also some in the various camp raids in Grimling Forest, although I don't know how difficult it might be to get those to drop, as there are quite a few items on the loot table for the relevant mob.

**Traska** · 09-18-2003, 06:01 PM

Succinctly enough:

At 34, you get about 2-3 points, I believe. I know my 38 rogue gets 3 points.

At those costs, it will take you 20-30 adventures (let's assume 20) to get one spell.

Let's assume you get 40% of a level each time you go in (about what my rogue does at 38)... although you'll be gaining levels, so let's be fair and say you average 35%.

That means those 20 adventures will net you 700% of a level... and now, you're 41, and can just now afford your first spell.

That. Is broken.

I love absolutely everything else about the expansion, and love my new charm (it's the only charm any one of my characters owns, period). But having to complete 60 adventures before you can even think about those boxes, unless you have a rogue along (who will eventually get you killed, anyway, alas) is... wrong. Just wrong.

The level 14 spells at the very least should be vendored. The level 24 should cost, at most, about 15 AP. The level 34, 25 AP, again, at the most.

My other idea: Grab Bag items.

You loot a MOB, and there it is:

Sack of Mystery
NO DROP
Wt 2.0 Size: Small
Class: ALL
Race: ALL

What is a Sack of Mystery? That's just it, you don't know *what* it is until you plop it into an augmentation sealer and hit combine. Sometimes, it does absolutely nothing. Sometimes it deathtouches you. Sometimes it gives you a few plat, a couple percent EXP, even a random item or aug...

...and sometimes, it gives you a couple of AP. What can I say, I'm a sucker for a grab bag. =)

**Malthorn** · 09-18-2003, 06:40 PM

I will agree that the spells should either be drops or researchable. I compare spells for casters with weapons for melee. Its our primary function. Plenty of nice weapons drop on adventures, lets see some spells drop.

I think I should be able to spend pp at npc vendors to buy new and/or upgraded weapons every couple of levels. Plenty of nice spells are sold for pp by npc vendors, lets see some weapons availible.

Announcement

LDoN points

LDoN points

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment