More modern Blacksmithing Guide

[Baalmakuug]

Short list (without all alternates) (for those who dont care why and just want the best path)

1-18 Metal Bits
19-32 Sheet Metal
33-52 Lanterns
53-74 Scaler, dairy spoons, filleting knives
75-188 Banded Armor
119-152 Golden Ornate chain
153-188 Platemail
189-212 LDoN Platemail
188-224 Enchanted velium bits
220-227 Acid washed Breastplates
224-252 Ceramic smith clays
224-267 Shadowscream
232-278 Tungsten, Titanium and tantalum glove templates or Magnetic armor
260-300 Masters legs and Breastplates
250-300 Old BD Cultural Armor

I would love to know any useful alternates that are a more efficient use of materials if anyone has any suggestions, I have not seen any on these boards.
If you wonder why the ranges overlap and some stuff is skipped read the whole article.

I wrote this like 2 years ago, but it is more current, useful and comprehensive than anything else I have seen. Multiple toons by myself ans several friends with sucess.

Baalmakuug MasterSmith
Povar

Norrathian Blacksmithing in the new Age, A guide to being successful and efficient from 1-300. By Baalmakuug Master-Smith of Povar

Note: this Guide is circa late 2007 so some things may be dated, but most all is current to best of my knowledge or is noted as out of date.

**Note: I try to focus mostly on the what and how rather than the why, but I do tend to wander and add some errata for interest.

Many changes have been made to the tradeskill system and I have never seen a higher level of interest than now in the 8 years I have been playing. This guide is intended for experienced players with considerable resources, but much is of use to even the newest players. Feel free to skip over any portions you wish at your own risk, but things have been much smoother in my experience done in this specific order.
Overview:
First thing off Blacksmithing is probably not the best trade to start as your first. It requires a considerable investment and pays off relatively late. Be assured though that you can make a considerable amount of profit with a fairly low level of skill if you have good knowledge of the materials that pass through your hands. There are a large number of fairly common items sprinkled all over the worlds of Norrath that you can add considerable value to with a simple combine. This applies to many tradesmen’s skills.

Also, much of developing your skill is an exercise in logistics; knowing what you will need and acquiring it. Much of this essay is geared towards that as the rest is fairly simple to learn, especially since the introduction of the tradeskill interface.

Tradesmen’s Trophies: I would advise you, for all trades you pursue, to begin seeking the trade trophy immediately, upon gaining the required skill(over 50), to start the quest. It is fairly simple when you are starting and quite difficult to do once you have gained some considerable skill.


Hoard List: This list is not complete but I will list most of the more useful items you will likely see pass through your hands that will be of use. My advice would be to bank all of these you can while you are going about your business to have them ready when you begin the next level of training. Plentiful Sources in ( ) The value in [ ] is relative market value Platinum Pieces based on vender purchased alternatives, the level of the combine, alternate uses and rarity of the item, and many other factors. Markets vary widely and shift as new sources are found in new expansions. At best to be taken as a rough guide wholesale price. The market is really micro system, so many principles are counter intuitive to us that live in the Earth world macro system. Things of low individual value in large quantity command a premium not a discount. Things of high value in large quantity though usually carry discount. This is not the forum to discuss this but I assure you it is generally true because the value of a player’s time is so high, no one thinks to factor it in and most all production can not be done in mass, and sales can not be done in mass for most things. These principles are generally of advantage to low level players and against high level players giving the economy a low level base.

1. Spiderling Silk (Crescent Reach) [ 5 ]
2. Shadeling Silk (Shadowweaver’s Thicket) [ 9 ]
3. Low [ 5 ], Medium [ 10 ], and High [ 30-200 ], Quality Cat, Wolf, Bear and Rockhopper Pelts
4. Leather Padding [ 25-50 ]
5. Swirling Shadows (Shadowweaver’s Thicket and Twilight Sea)
6. Steppes Ore (Gnolls in Steppes) [ 100 -250 ]
7. Small Brick of High Quality Ore (from Fine Steel weapons) [ 10-15 ]
8. Pond weed, Ice Lichen, Sand verbena, Goblin Bones, Gargoyle Granite (LDoN zones as drops and forages) [ 25-100 ]
9. Velium pieces, small brick, large bricks and Blocks (Crystal Caverns, SkyShrine and Velkator’s Labyrinth)
10. Rhenium, Tungsten, Cobalt, and Titanium Ore (Most zones 65+ level Mobs) [ 100-500 ]
11. Bonded [ 200 ]and Soluble [ 2000 ] Loam (Most zones 65+ level Mobs)
12. Blue Diamonds [ 260-450 ]
13. Magnetic armor, bricks, Patch-plates and Bolts (Muramite Proving Grounds) [ 500-5000 ]
14. Lightning Cores (Muramite Proving Grounds) [ 500-20,000 ]




First step Away from the Forge:
To start I would recommend working a faster and less costly trade to an extent first, you will make mistakes and learn from them cheaply. I would most highly recommend developing skill in brewing to at least 190 before ever picking up a hammer. This can be done very quickly and for a few hundred platinum pieces and has many benefits. The largest is that for Blacksmithing projects are much easier to accomplish if you can do the brewing yourself required for many Blacksmithing recipes. The second is that if you are one of the many people that do not find such activities appealing you can figure that out with minimal cost in coin and time. I will let you find your own brewing guide and path, but needless to say, you can easily push brewing skill to the 240s without considerable expense or ever leaving the Plane of Knowledge.
As an addendum I would also recommend improving your Pottery skill to about 190. This can be done very quickly, with little expense, in Crescent Reach most efficiently. This will be extremely useful for Blacksmithing if you choose certain paths for developing your skill and making items for profit. Beyond that if you do not have the time and patience for these small tasks; it would probably be well advised to give up on Blacksmithing before you start as it is much more challenging and expensive in coin and time by several orders of magnitude.

Step up to the forge:
There are many skill paths and I have seen and experimented personally with several. The route I advise is my favorite for reducing the cost and overall time and minimizing the strain on your storage space. First try to clear a good deal of space in your inventory to allow you to work faster. I am assuming you have already followed my earlier advice and gained familiarity with certain universal elements of the trades. As I progress I will be less precise with the instructions as I will assume by this point you have gained some familiarity with the basic elements involved.



Apprentice Blacksmithing, The first leap: This stage is best done in one sitting and goes fairly fast you will need a few hundred platinum pieces and about 40 bag spaces to work most efficiently. This can be done in most every city in Norrath and most certainly in the Plane of Knowledge.

Skill 1-18 Make metal bits: Get a 4 stacks of “small pieces of ore” and 10 stacks of “flask of water”. Combine 2 “small piece of ore” and a ‘Flask of water” in a forge to make “metal bits”. You will trivial these fairly quickly but go ahead and complete them all and maintain them in your inventory.

Skill 19-32 Make sheet metal: Get 4 stacks of “small block of ore” and combine 2 at a time in a forge with a flack of water to make “sheet metal”. Complete all them all and maintain them in your inventory.

Skill 33-52 Make lanterns: Take the “metal bits” you made and combine with “a bottle”, “a flask of water”, and “a lantern mold”. Continue until you reach 52. Sell off the lanterns, buy more molds as required. Sell all lanterns and remaining lantern molds when 52 skill is achieved. Make more metal bits as required. Also procure one ‘file mold” and combine with 1 “metal bits” to make “a file”, keep the file you will need often.

Skill 53-74 Making Scalers, Dairy Spoons, and Filleting Knives: I prefer these as all 3 use the same components, just in different quantities, they are inexpensive, and most of the produced items stack. Start with Scalers which is “a flask of water”, “a Scaler Mold”, and 1 “metal bits”. Once these trivial at 68 skill, advance to Dairy spoons which are “a flask of water”, “a Scaler Mold” and 2 “metal bits’ until these trivial at 71 skill. I bet you can guess the recipe for a Filleting knife(Trivial 74); “a flask of water”, “a Scaler Mold” and 3 “metal bits”. Sell off all the scalers, spoons, and knives.

At this point I strongly advise you to get the quest for the Apprentice Blacksmithing Trophy. Complete it as you will, but get it now, before your skill advances beyond the apprentice level; requiring you to receive a more difficult quest. This should only take you a few minutes as the book from the Plane of Knowledge book in West Freeport is in the same area as the quest giver to the south west outside the gates and away from the guards. I would advise completing it as soon as possible as it has a skill modifier and advances and evolves with you as you learn you art.



Journeyman Blacksmithing

Skill 75-118 Making banded armor: Advance through banded armor to 118 skill is my recommendation, it is relatively inexpensive and the components are widely available. This is fairly straightforward and you should still have some sheet metal you made earlier if you are powering through this.

Skill 119- 152 Making Golden Ornate Chain: There really are many paths to choose at this point but I recommend Golden Ornate chain for its speed and reasonably low cost. Why not silver or platinum? Well training with the silver is really a waist of the other components and the platinum is way to expensive at this stage of your training. There are many, many other paths, but I have found them very slow, very expensive, or very difficult to find the materials. To reduce the cost further you can melt down fine steel weapons to get the ore if you are in a position where you receive them as drops. I still do this and sell the ore for others to use in their training as I find fine steel weapons on corpses. If you are of a level where you hunt in areas where Fine Steel regularly drops, it is a fine example of value added as the ore is worth much more to players than the weapon is to merchant vendors. Skip the silver chain and start right off with “Golden Ornate Chain Coifs” until they trivial at 135 skill. Next move to I recommend making “Golden Ornate Chain Tunics” until they trivial at 152 Skill. Sell all the Golden ornate you make to venders, you will find little market among players for it in the modern economy.

More Chores: At this point it would be very helpful to learn a bit about tailoring. As you move towards hammering out platemail items you will require. These items can be obtained from other players, but it is usually much faster and less expensive to make them yourself. Tailoring while, not nearly as simple as Brewing is fairly easy to advance to over 100 skill if you have some skill with brewing and Blacksmithing. The level of blacksmithing you have gained at this point is also sufficient to support these tailoring projects.




Becoming a Master Blacksmith

153-188 Making Platemail: Believe it or not in the beginning this was the pinnacle of the art in the ancient past. I used to use some pieces myself in a time that seems so long ago. I was able to make a considerable amount of money on this armor many years ago when it was the best that many people could find and afford. It was quite difficult to make and as the components were very bulky, heavy, and available only in remote locations slow to make and expensive. I made a considerable amount also making the folded sheets; as they were much less bulky and heavy and highly sought but those practicing Blacksmithing with a forge available close to the source of supply. (this is gone now as ore is widely sold and stacks now) That time now is in the ancient past; with new technologies it is much easier to produce in most any city and very suitable for improving your skills. Completed pieces sell for about the cost of the vender purchased components. You will just loose a little for the value of the “leather padding” making the armor and selling to merchants. You can make this yourself if you have any tailoring skill at all or purchase it from other players at widely ranging costs. I still produce leather padding from most all materials for it that pass through my hands. Even purchasing materials from other players; it is a simple way to add value to something common and pocket a few coins. Another good example of a simple way to easily add value to items that pass through your hands.

Platemail requires Medium Quality ore which is available in many locations, but not everywhere, the most obvious though is the plain of knowledge. All types of molds desired for platemail are also available so it is a good neutral location to conduct this business.

If you are developing skill in blacksmithing for a quest or to support some other trade, this is probably a good place to stop. Things become much more expensive and time consuming at this point.


189-212 Making LDoN Platemail: These recipes are basically the same are the platemail you have been working. They use a vender sold padding and a different hammer, both available in the Plain of Knowledge. They do however require a temper made from dropped or foraged components from LDoN instances. The temper components are widely available in the economy most of the time.(update: these are becoming rare as LDoN is rarely done much now) The finished tempers are not and usually carry a premium when they are sold. Having a substantial skill in brewing will always give you a route to put a few coins in you pocket making these tempers. The completed armor pieces will gladly be purchased by merchants for a little less than the costs of the components excluding the temper. Making these tempers yourself will likely save you much time and money. This is another good way to again to add value to things that pass through your hands.




Master’s Works

You have stepped up to a threshold now where things will become very expensive and time consuming to advance your skill, however you also now will be able to start effectively making things which you can actually sell to other players or make for your own use.


213-224 Skill Making Enchanted Velium Bits: There are many choices at this point but none of them is easy of inexpensive to do in the quantity required. Enchanted Velium Bits require fairly common materials and are not too expensive. They are however No-Drop so you will receive nothing back monetarily from them and just probably need to destroy them as you make them, but it is a learning experience in many ways. These require 2 small bits of velium, a copy of the “enchant velium” spell (sold in Thurgadin), and 1 “Coldain Velium Temper”. It cost almost as much to make the tempers as to buy them so probably best just to purchase them. You may need a friend purchase them or have to brew them if you like me have tangled with Dain Frostriever IV many times in your youth.

220-227 Skill Acid Washed Breastplates: These have a minimum skill requirement close to their trivial but not quite. This is part of a Planes of Power Trades Master quest, { Aid Grimel } I consider this step completely optional. This requires “dilute acid solution” which is easily brewed and a quest piece given on request { Aid Grimel } These are not fast to make, but the cost of this training in coin is minimal and most all in the Plane of Knowledge. The downside is you have to run back and forth each combine in the Plane of knowledge. You probably spend time hanging out there anyway, may as well be doing something useful.

224-252 Skill Ceramic Smith’s Clays: These require some uncommon components and you can not sell them as they are No-drop, but they can be produced in decent quantity fairly consistently. They require “a file”(which the recipe used to be bugged and consume), “a large block of enchanted clay”, and 1 “steppes ore”. The clay is easy to acquire as any level 12 enchanter can enchant clay. A very small donation is suitable if you find someone available not too much advanced beyond this level. Also very often sold by players. The “steppes ore” is not an uncommon drop and fairly well recognized as having value. Players usually will be selling it for 100-300pp. If you are in you high 60 or 70s you might want to target more of your grouping to the Steppes. The time required to gather the materials is not too great if you start while you are working through earlier stages. Working with the many other combinations of techniques at this stage is also advisable if the materials come to hand. There are also several options for combines with various Templates, but I have found these to be difficult to gain in quantity and generally much more expensive to make for training purposes. If you are the appropriate level and fighting often in the right places these components may be gushing out of your backpack. Mistletoe sickles are another option if you have lots of money and want to get this done as fast as possible real time rather than online time.

[Baalmakuug]

Baalmakuug's smithing Guide Part II

The road to Grand master: The last 50 points of skill are by far the most difficult in some ways and certainly by far the most expensive. There are several options and paths but they are all full of difficulties and generally involve large investments of time and/or coin. The fastest and least expensive route is likely to work most of them as the materials are available. Some paths are not available for some races and are much cheaper or easier for those to whom they are available.
Another consideration to remember is that you will need a fairly large number of combines to evolve your tradesmen’s trophy. It may be more efficient to work things with a lower trivial in quantity at a much lower rate of skill up than to do a few very expensive ones that have a high rate of skill increases. You are going to need something around 700 combines to evolve the Trophy from Master to Grandmaster. Evolving the trophy as quickly as possible is highly desirable as you do not want to still be “training” the trophy loosing time and money after you have mastered the craft skill.

224-267 Shadow-Scream Armor. This quest is terribly annoying to most high level players as it can be complete by a level 20 as quickly as one that is level 80 mostly and is very time consuming if you have not done it before. The biggest sink for time if you have experience with the geography of Luclin is the first step. The Bloodling carapace drops are fairly rare, the spawn is not large, and 16 are required. They can be completely wiped out by someone who is level 5, but someone higher will not have much luck. However none the parts for the first step are No-Drop. Happily pay a premium for the parts and skip this step if you can find one for sell. Swirling Shadows are actually almost as fast to farm from Lesser Shades in Shadow Weaver’s as in Twilight Sea and can be easily done by a level 10. They have a very large and fast spawn over a medium sized area. Also they will drop a large amount of “Shadeling silk” which can be used to make “leather padding”.
Making this armor you will want to start out with Gauntlets if your skill is still under 252 then move to cloaks trivial 267. If you skill is under 224, just bank the materials as you have much faster and less expensive options to train.
The advantages to Shadow-Scream is it requires very little coin if you wish to farm and the components can be farmed by most any level in great quantity. They are available for purchase irregularly at widely ranging prices. Kits of the basics required for the quest sell for a premium but can be acquired from industrious persons and well worth the money if you are just needing Shadow-Scream pieces in small quantities, such as for a quest. If you are low level and want to make some money find and aspiring Master-Blacksmith and farm these components for him. I employed many low level assistants in farming these components and everyone was happy with the arrangement. The Shadow-Scream pieces also have decent tribute values, but they are not valued by merchants much at all. Any pieces made should be used as tribute or sold for such purpose. The obvious disadvantage is that this is very time consuming even with assistance at all stages. It is also usually very expansive to purchase these materials from players. Your money could be spent to more effect and less effort on other paths. If you have characters in the 30-50 level range and have people to drag along, you can get the drops adventuring. If you are trying to skill up and want to get as much training in as fast as possible this is also then viable. You can most likely farm more combines in the same amount of time rather than other paths, but it is not likely to produce anything else but boredom and frustration.

252-278 This is an interim period when you have many possibilities, but none of them are cheep or plentiful. There are several options in this skill range you can make that can usually be sold for a profit, but it is hard to sell most of them in quantity. To work most of these in a cost effective manner you will need the Blacksmithing AAs and Salvage AAs completed. With this it is also to be considered that it may be more efficient to try much harder combines and fail often if you have your primary statistic over 400 and already have the salvage AAs completed failing often and getting salvage is often better than a success. Very often the finished products are worth less then the materials. To the point if you are not finished with the AAs it is usually better to finish salvage AAs first.

Tungsten templates are my primary recommendation for this skill range. The gloves templates, 312 trivial, are a single dropped component and you can recover the cost of all vender components selling back the finished products. Tungsten ore drops primarily from mobs level 50-75. This is a level range hunted my the vast majority of the community. Enough can usually be purchased to pursue this at a steady rate though this range. Cobalt glove templates, 350 trivial, are also very effective in the same manner but cobalt is usually a little less common and more expensive. If you have the salvage AAs but not the trade skill AAs, it is probably the best choice as you will have a high number of failed combines with chance for salvage. The same relationship also applies to titanium; but to larger degrees.

Magnetic armor is another alternative. It has been highly favored and is in demand usually so it is very expensive and currently the products are worth far less than the raw materials, but you can at least recoup something out of it. At the very least the finished pieces can be worked with a hammer into bricks to make more sheets making it at least easy to maintain your training. The supply of the damaged pieces to work is usually very limited and very expansive and it is difficult to store as they do not stack. I would hoard the bricks and plates prior and repair pieces as you find them, but even with a very large effort and considerable resources using Magnetic armor as a sole path is very slow because for the low volume.

Another alternate is Rhenium templates and Masters armor. Rhenium is actually often is rare drop from mobs over level 65; so many higher players will never see it in zone where they normally group.
This has many advantages the first being finished pieces can usually be sold to players for a modest profit. If you have the Masters level symbol quest completed there is usually a large market for these symbols. Few Grandmaster Blacksmiths make them in my experience as the operation requires considerable bank space better used for other things, but they can usually be sold for a small profit and can be made in good quantity as they are not race specific. I would advise however hoarding most rhenium in this skill range unless you have someone needing the products as the Chest and leg pieces final combines have a considerable bonus to skill increases. These are very good for skill ups at a later point and the ore is usually better employed at a later point.

The final sprint. The last 20 skill increases are usually the hardest and take the longest; but I and several others using similar techniques often find they go very fast. By this point the system for the logistics or acquiring the materials is usually worked out and often a considerable amount has been stockpiled. Working the best combines, the skill increases often come very quickly. The hard part of this really is knowing what is needed and acquiring it is sufficient quantities.

278-300 Most recommend: Masters and Grandmasters Chest and leg final combines and Masters Chest and leg symbols. These items can most always be sold for a substantial profit and fair quantity and skill increase very fast. I have found both with tailoring and Blacksmithing these combines are about 5 times more likely with masters and 10 times more likely Grandmasters to skill increase than other combines of the same trivial range. Do not mistake, the Grandmasters is more likely than Master per combine. The masters dropped rare components for final combines though are often much more common and often attainable at 10% of the cost of Grandmaster equivalents. The failure rate is much lower also which is of note as this armor can usually be sold for some profit, though usually not at near the volume you will be making it. The same applies for the Masters and Grandmasters symbols for legs and chest. These use the same drop materials, but give a much wider choice of products than can be made for sale to all classes and all races. (Note: this works very well for tailoring also and pretty much everything applies. I have used for both on multiple characters and have advised friends who had success with same.)

250-300: Prime alternative: Old-world Blue Diamond based cultural armor is also good for training. The rare components are blue diamonds, Velium, and cultural tempers. All of which are easily stockpiled. Not all races have this option and for some the Tempers are rather difficult to get in mass. This works especially well for certain races, especially dwarves as their temper materials are usually available in large quantities in bazaar for a low price. The pieces all have a trivial of 335 so you will have a lot of fails unless you have tradeskill AAs. This method is not good as a primary if time is important as supply sources you can get will likely be small. The advantages are that the items have a good sale value and are profitable assuming you succeed more than you fail. This varies greatly by armor piece, race, and deity. The tribute value difference can be a 300% from one deity to another. Boots and Breastplates are the normal best but different for every race. Examples: best for Dwarves is boots for Bristlebane. Ogres is Breastplates for Innoruk and boots for Cazic. Reference Lucy to find the best ones for you. Generally I have been able to make items that will sell for profit in a 1/8-9 ratio of PP to tribute. Often value of tribute items is as high as 1/5-6 ratio which yields large profit margins. Normally I can sell as many as I can make as fast as I can make them at 1/9.

[Zopharr]

I applaud your effort, and it brings back a lot of memories as it is very similar to what I did when I first skilled to 250 back in the velious/luclin days and then moving on to 300 before the cultural revamp. It's also good to read for someone completely new to smithing, so they can see some of the various options they have (such as making blue diamond cultural for tribute).

But I do think that in terms of recipes, the Complete Tradeskill Guide 5.0 ( http://mboards.eqtraders.com/eq/showthread.php?t=30177 ) or the Complete Tradeskill Guide 6.1 ( http://mboards.eqtraders.com/eq/showthread.php?t=33385 ) will provide a faster path for most.

A couple of reasons:

- with some exceptions (such as perhaps shadowscream) it is faster to farm for the new ores used for templates than to farm for components for other recipes that you recommend.

- The new ores are also global drops, and people know they are for tradeskilling - so they often find their way to bazaar. If you are patient and plan ahead (i.e., willing to take two months to hit 300) you can generally get what you need for skilling up very cheaply.

- markets obviously vary between servers, but on my server, at least, the market doesn't really exist for a lot of the items (magnetic armor, intricate armor/sacred symbols, , etc.) [Note that what you refer to as masters armor is now 'intricate' armor and grandmaster's in 'elaborate.' The turnover is so slow, and the bazaar mule bag space required so large (you only get 80 slots of items to sell) that it often is not worthwhile maintaining significant stock, particularly with the defiant armor avialable. With three GM smiths (two for races with few/no smiths on my server) I think I have sold one piece of cultural armor in the last two months, and no tells/inquiries.

It is worth pointing out - as you allude - that intricate armor and sacred symbols provide a 5% bonus to skillup and elaborate armor/eminent symbols have a 10% bonus, IIRC. So worth cruisng bazaar to see if the loam for these two is available chaep, or set up a buyer. Blue Diamond cultural is good for tribute, as you noted - my dwarf still does bracers for the 7k tribute. But IMO many of your other alternatives are more costly, complicated or time consuming than the routes in the other guides.

[Baalmakuug]

Further Notes an Clarifications

I see all your points and understand what you are saying. I will make some minor adjustments, but I belive overall my failure was in hammering home a few points, not understood by many at all, that are the basis for the method.

I said too much how and not enough why. It is always fun to have intelligent feedback and dirrected or inderect questions that are informed. A lot is skewed as it is written in 2007 so lots changed on the market, granted. I dissagree with your conclusions though. I have found the lower level ores very difficult to find in quantity and slow to farm the drops are off mobs in zones that have no player base.

Obviously any combines that come to hand are good to do, but the lower level ores are rarely in bazaar and I think it is faster to work though will all vender component stuff, besides leather padding to 188 without much possibility of debate on that point.

The LDoN Tempers are much rarer now than when I wrote this guide, but I see quite a few in bazaar. It is still a gap though as the template ore for that range are also rare with few players killing mobs in that range of levels. I have never found velium in short supply for small peices and super easy to farm so would just start that sooner and cover the gap on the LDoN tempers.


The steppes ores usually in good supply or multiple alternatives to push into the range where you can get the scribe for making the Intracate armor. [B]The temptation is going to be to use rhenium glove templates to push from 220-250 if you based you acquisions on avilibility simplicity and cost. I believe that this is not wise and other alternatives should be found though more difficult now to speed progression at a later more difficult point.

You need to understand how the bonus work. I think the part people do not understand and I guess I did not hammer home is that the bonus is to the base chance which makes it large. You are with most combines at 2-3% chance to skill up in 250+ skill range. The bonus is like 3%+5%=8% not how most interprit it like 3% * 1.05 = 3.15%. Is that is more clear? Basically the Intracate/masters BP/Legs is nearly 3 times the skill up chance and the GM/Elaborate is like 3%+10% = 13%, over 4 times as likely. Without that point being understood you would be looking at doing glove templates to maximize combines, like those guides you linked suggest. I submit it is a waist to do Rhenium glove templates.


Basically I submit that the method as stated with some minor tweeks to the working ranges is still far superior and more effient in time, resources, and whatever else you care to measure it in, becuase of these generally misunderstood points.

I will make some tweeks based on your comments, it is always hard to see the mistakes in your own work. I have a tayloring equivilant for this that is mostly the same and between them have used it 5 times myself and had several I advised use it with great success.

[Gorse]

I see all your points and understand what you are saying. I will make some minor adjustments, but I belive overall my failure was in hammering home a few points, not understood by many at all, that are the basis for the method. I said too much how and not enough why. It is always fun to have intelligent feedback and dirrected or inderect questions that are informed. A lot is skewed as it is written in 2007 so lots changed on the market, granted. I dissagree with your conclusions though. I have found the lower level ores very difficult to find in quantity and slow to farm the drops are off mobs in zones that have no player base. Obviously any combines that come to hand are good to do, but the lower level ores are rarely in bazaar and I think it is faster to work though will all vender component stuff, besides leather padding to 188 without much possibility of debate on that point. The LDoN Tempers are much rarer now than when I wrote this guide, but I see quite a few in bazaar. It is still a gap though as the template ore for that range are also rare with few players killing mobs in that range of levels. I have never found velium in short supply for small peices and super easy to farm so would just start that sooner and cover the gap on the LDoN tempers. The steppes ores usually in good supply or multiple alternatives to push into the range where you can get the scribe for making the armor. The temptation is going to be to use rhenium glove templates, which is a waste, clearly . You need to understand how the bonus work. I would recomend to shifting towards lots more tungsten glove templates based on your comments if all others are too rare and would still hoarde the Rhenium and Cobalt ore for the last 30-40 points. I think the part people do not understand and I guess I did not hammer home is that the bonus is to the base chance which makes it large. You are looking at like2-3% chance to skill up in 250+ skill range. The bonus is like 3%+5%=8% not how most interprit it like 3% * 1.05 = 3.15%. Is that is more clear? Basically the Intracate/masters BP/Legs is nearly 3 times the skill up chance and the GM/Elaborate is like 3%+10% = 13%, over 4 times as likely. Without that point being understood you would be looking at doing glove templates to maximize combines, like those guides you linked suggest. That is innefficient and much slower overall. You want to do just chest and legs armor, needing to hoard the ores for the finals for those combines for skill ups once you have the skill to scribe those recipies. Basically I submit that the method as stated with some minor tweeks to the working ranges is still far superior and more effient in time, resources, and whatever else you care to measure it in, becuase of these generally misunderstood points. I will make some tweeks based on your comments, it is always hard to see the mistakes in your own work. I have a tayloring equivilant for this that is mostly the same and between them have used it 5 times myself and had several I advised use it with great success.

First, please use a few more paragraphs. It is very hard to read one mosshed entry like this and most will jsut give up.

I'll argue your "how most interprit it" assumption, as I have yet to have a discussion with anyone who even thought about this being the case, mainly because thanks to input from developers (like a certain house trained ogre) we have been told (and player data supports) that 8% / 13% is accurate.

I agree with most of your thought processes and what you are trying to do / make as a guide. If nothing else it will be a helpful tool when/if you decide to work some of these tradeskills on other toons.


A few points:

1. In order complete the cultural combines and take advantage of the extra bonus, you have to complete the extra tasks. These often take a lot of time and can be beyond the requirements of many (often low level) tradeskill mules.

2. While the specific tiers of cutural armor give the bonuses "which is a waste, clearly" is NOT clearly as waste. It may seem a waste to you, but often players can find a good source/farm spot (like Rhenium Ore in Halls of Honor) and get those parts readily, rather than having to move on to a harder spot.

3. In the same idea for reason 2, some ore sells for less beaxuse of the lack of need, and you can often pick up these parts extremely cheap.

4. Finally on why Rhenium (and other off tier ores are not a waste), the templates that are created can be sold back to the vendor for about 90% (10% loss) of cost of the vendor purchased items. This makes these (even with failures) a possible route.



Gorse

[Zopharr]

re: further clarifications

Written in 2007? OK, that explains the references to master and GM armor and the like and why some recipes that are left out.

I think it’s a good start. It could be very beneficial for people new to tradeskilling in general, and smithing in particular. I think it could be written more clearly and concisely – yes, I remember binding at the forge in Freeport and gating back from Highpass loaded with ore and what a Brellsend it was when metal plates finally stacked (when I was already 238 smithing) but color like that probably isn’t of interest for players who weren’t smithing ‘back in the day.’

You may also want to review some of the newer recipes out there – sunshard dust, for example, provides a path to 170 (as well as working pottery, JC or tinkering along the way, a twofer) and sunshard pebbles to 255. Both of these are often available pretty cheap, and if you are patient you can often put up a buyer and get enough to get you to 220-230 over the course of a month or so, server economy permitting. Even sunshard ore is starting to get cheap at the lower end of prices (at least on my server), and all of the energeiac armor can be sold back for 90 percent of cost ofthe vendor purchased components (i.e., all but the sunshard).

You may also want to particularly say when some recipes may be wise choices at a certain stage and why they might be bad choices. For example, you say “The temptation is going to be to use rhenium glove templates, which is a waste, clearly.” I’d argue that that is patently false, depending on conditions. Yes, if you have access to bonded loam, then yes, it is a waste – make the intricate armor for the 7.5% chance for skillup vice the 2.5% or so chance. On the other hand, if the only bonded loam available is going for 500pp a shot but you can get scads of rhenium at 10pp each, getting the rhenium ore and using most of it to make templates can make a lot of sense; same with cobalt ore and soluble loam.

I’d suggest that you rewrite it and put it on the smithing boards to ask for comments and additional recipes for consideration, then after it has been ‘peer reviewed’ repost if here and ask to have it stickied. I still think that the ‘complete tradeskill guides,’ with their conciseness, apre probably more useful for experienced tradeskillers who have already worked to 300 in one or more skills (and thus probably have a pretty good idea about how tradeskills work), but there is a real gap in terms of guides for people who are new to tradeskiklling, and this could help fill that.

[Baalmakuug]

Thanks

I greatly appreciate the points and suggestions. It is hard to find the proper words and way to make things clear so they are understood without making them so too long to be useful. Further opinions and views are very helpful.

I have assisted in the use of this method as you suggested to help finish out the last slog in Tinkering, I supplied the templates and my friend made the finals tinkering. It is probably more useful for Tinkering than with the smithing as the options there are much more limited for simple combines in the 260+ Range. I do not have the overall knowledge with the tinkering to write a guide on it though. I do know a modern guide working tinkering up in conjunction with smithing would be very useful to many.

I will look for any additional combines I can add to smooth out the spots or supplement the gaps that have appeared with the changes in zone habits and such. The jewcraft crossover I am experimenting with now and I expect it provides excellent smithing training with the at the top end. I have done a little work with that now and I am testing it to get points worked out.

I would especially like to find something that would not require Rhenium ore and work efficiently in the range for skill ups from 224-260. Right now my suggestions would be Tungsten and Titanium Templates and what I have used in the past on occasion, but pricier and rarer than I would like. Steppes Ore often is available, but not always. The magnetic armor is always small bits. I do not like the Shadow Scream as it is farming, if quick; but still many people have more interesting ways to spend their time.

I will work on further revisions as I have time. If anyone has a good alternate for the 224-260 range, please share.

[Baalmakuug]

Gorse, I cleaned up the paragraphs. I know you are correct that it was poorly written as my points were lost and at times understood the opposite of what I intended.


I would argue that the way the bonus was stated was not clear and I have found lots of people struggling when they would have succeeded had they understood. It made a huge impression on me as I was upset as Blacksmithing had been made tremendously easier. Honestly I think it makes it too easy.

Do you have a suggestion for my current gap 224-260?

[Gorse]

The last two submissions were much better. Thanks, it really helps.


My point has always been that the tradeskiller needs to evaluation what works for them. They need to self evaluate what will work best and meet their needs in terms of cost, time and component availability.

Most of the time I have tried to focus my comments on alternative (and a lot of times, but not always, cheaper) options. What a player doesn't know can burn them out quickly on tradeskills. Find a source that is good for you, is within your cost/benefit evaluation and your play time requirements and go from there.

Plenty of people these days don't mind an expensive route, as long as they can skill up as fast as possible, while others (especially the casual gamer) don't have the bank account to drop (literally) millions of plat into the fast skill up routes.

Also new items change then entire landscape of some tradeksills (binding powders for INT researchers anyone). In this case, and yto answer your question of the 224 to 260 gap for smithing, I would suggest ore barbs:

Ore Barbs:
(just combine ore with file in a forge)

..62 - Thalium Barbs
112 - Fulginate Barbs
184 - Rhenium Barbs
222 - Cobalt Barbs
242 - Titanium Barbs
255 - Tantalum Barbs
268 - Vanadium Barbs


It doesn't get much easier than that, especially with the amount of Titanium, Tantalum and Vanadium or coming into the game right now (specifically out of the SoD zones).


Gorse

[Nolrog]

Short list (without all alternates) (for those who dont care why and just want the best path)

189-212 LDoN Platemail

LDoN armors aren't a good option these days. They require a drop from the LDoN instances (e.g., Gargoyle Granite to make the granite temper). Since people don't do the LDoNs very much, it's not easy to get those drops to make the tempers.

[Thulack A.]

used the tradeskills guide for my smithing on my ranger on mayong. cost me 25kish to get 300 smithing. just setup a buyer buying all the ores and i got around 3k ores i sat down and grinded 1-300 out. Much easier then your guide.

[Baalmakuug]

Confused

Thuliak, I think being one of extensive experiance you are not really the audience for such a guide and the assumption of one having knowledge and capacity to work in the manner you suggest would be another guide in itself towards logistics or tradeskilling.

Second I would dispute your conclusion. Basically my method in the higher range concentrates on ores so you would have to be talking about greater ease in the lower range.

Third The primary gap in mine is in the 220-250 range which is also gapped using ore templates.

Forth I think that is is untenable position that it could be considered easier to do the training from 1-188 with dropped ores. Vender sold components in any measure of time, cost, or ease. It just happens to be nearly equivilant in the highly specified system you already had in place.

Basically I do not understand your what you mean in any way that seems to apply. Please expand on what you are putting forward?

[Baalmakuug]

Note on LDoN

I assume servers vary but there are many LDoN tempers or components in the bazaar on my server. Notice also I have that portion overlapped so it is an alternate. Of coarse situations will continue to change and be different when different people are involved. I do not think it makes sense to remove it as an overall choice path All other elements past those tempers being very easy and generating items that sell back and/or tribute well.

My focus overall is towards overall real time first, play time second and cost as a last priority. Obviously you would make adjustments based on your priorities.

If you have further alternatives to suggest, please send them? I thin the whole range for my method could be improved in the 190-250 range.

[Zopharr]

Thuliak, I think being one of extensive experiance you are not really the audience for such a guide and the assumption of one having knowledge and capacity to work in the manner you suggest would be another guide in itself towards logistics or tradeskilling.

I believe that he means that if one is patient (i.e., willing to wait a few months to collect all of the necessary ores), it is pretty easy to just set up a buyer to buy the ores at cheap rates, and then use the ores to skill up making templates. Been awhile since I did this, but if you are willing to wait, you can get some surprisingly large amounts of ore for 5-10pp a shot. No fuss, no muss, no hours of scanning bazaar or camping...it just requires thinking ahead, being patient, and be willing to wait a couple months extra to achieve your goal. If time is more important, your more active path is preferred.

* * *

I also disagree with your characterization of shadowscream: "[one can] most likely farm more combines in the same amount of time rather than other paths." Once I was able to work the Hollowshade wars - about 20 minutes of searching and reading - I was able to get enough material for about 40 combines an hour. (This with a level 70 group-geared SK and a 66 or 68 level cleric AOEing.) I wouldn't say do this rather than hunt in a level-appropriate content for ore drops, but if you are looking at farming grays, I think that this may be hard to beat, at least for AOE clkasses or those with access to one.

I would also tweak the area for 'masters and grandmasters' to the modern names (intricate/elaborate), as a true smithing newbie will be lost by this.

I would point out that for intricate armor/sacred symbols you need to do BP/legs to reach 300, but that any of the elaborate/eminent combines will get you to 300, as well as any tungstan, cobalt, and titanium template combines.

You may also want to point out at some point that you need to be 240 (IIRC) to do the intricate/sacred combines, and 270 and up to do elaborate/eminent.

Lastly, for the Blue Diamond Cultural, check your tribute examples. Mischievous Platemail Boots are 6097 tribute, while Mischievous Platemail Bracer is 7742 tribute. Imbued gems are also something to set up a buyer for in bazaar, or auction in general for the impatient.

Decent guide, though - huge improvement.