Help w/ High Elf Smithing (188 and beyond!!!)

[Cavel]

Quillium... PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Tell me who will buy HIE cultural? I have not been able to sell this stuff to players unless they ask me for it... And that is once in a blue moon... I have gotten 3 requests for Old world Cultural since I have made 200 smithing and have actively advertised and had friends advertise for me. The old world stuff does not sell at all!

Look at the old cultural armors they trivial at the same levels as mine but do not require any more than 1 temper and a store bought, plus an OPAL is only 4pp more than an Emerald...... and if you do not mind sitting on the Cyclops island in OOT then the rest of the temper is nothing to get... So as a human you can get your smithing from 220 (LDON Plate trivial) to 242 with Sea Temper, considering that it takes an average of 20 combines per skill up for a total of 440 combines to get to 242, you will be saving approximately 89408pp 8gp 8sp over a HIE doing the exact same combines.

To explain my math even more:
Human Freeport Cultural
Sea Temper uses fish wine 3sp per bottle
Manipulating the bricks to rings and Blocks uses water 1sp
Imbued Opals 18pp

Moonlight temper uses Morning dew 25pp per
Manipulating the bricks to rings and Blocks uses Morning Dew 25pp
Imbued emeralds 14pp

Now with farming the other 2 componants of the temper the Tempers alone will cost:
Moonlight temper 7480pp
Sea Temper 13.2pp

We are talking about a 3 sheet combine here in the BP that we are using for this example:
Human Fine Steel Floded sheets 52pp + 1sp (Water flask) No Enchanter Required
HIE Folded sheet of ENCHANTED Mithrial 54pp + 25pp Morning dew + 25pp Morning dew (We must combine 3 enchanted large bricks of Mithrial to make an enchanted block of mithrial using Morning Dew then combine the Block with another Morning dew to get the sheet).
Human Total cost for sheets based on 440 3 sheet combines 68641.32
HIE Total cost (Assuming no paying a 49+ enchanter to enchant the Mithrial) for 440 3 sheet combine is 137280

Human Chain Jointing:
Ore Cost (220 large bricks of ore) 440pp
Water Cost to make Rings 2.2pp
Water cost to Make Jointing 4.4pp

HIE Chain Jointing
Ore Cost (220 ENCHANTED bricks of Mithrial) 3960pp
Morning Dew to make Rings 550
Morning Dew to make Jointing 11000

We assume that the Human and HIE both Farm Padding so that is a wash
Both use a Breastplate mold so again a wash.

Imbued Opals 7920
Imbued Emeralds 6160

So Doing the Math the Human spends the following for 440 BP combines using Freeport Cultural:
77021.12

The High Elf spends the following for 440 BP combines using the ONLY cultural available:
166430

For a Difference of:
89408.88

So a High elf spends more than twice as much as a human to go from 220 to 242 on comparable items of the Old cultural. Now you claim that people buy the HIE items based on the following difference in Stats HIE old world cultural BP(Tunare ONLY) Has the following Stats different from Rodcet Nife ONLY Human BP:
+2ac +1wis +10Dex –2sta +6Cha
Only other real difference is that HIE cannot wear the human one and Humans cannot wear the HIE one.

The only race that might come close to cost is the Dwarves who are forced to use Rubies in the old world cultural. However the difference there is only 52K PP.

If I have made a mistake in my math please correct me I would truely like to know if I am making a mistake with these figures or not. If I am I will stop posting here about this topic however If I am not then I would hope that some of you folks would lend me a hand in sending feedback to the GM's.

OHHH and one last thing you said make it a Rare for the Manipulation I would give you this, make it something that humans cannot readily get and must rely on another race to get... Like say Halflings.

[Iannyen]

You are missing the point. Morning Dew is free. Its forraged, and a ground spawn. Water isn't. So actually, the Human temper is more expensive. You are just too impatient to forrage it yourself, or get an alt or guildmate to do it.

Does it take more time? Yeah. Is it more costly? Well, only if you let it be. But you really can't complain if you are paying for something you can pick up off the ground for free.

As for selling the Elvel cultural, the non-imbued items are great for Woodelf and half elf bards, and the imbued is great for Tunare paladins and clerics. When I sell items, they usually sell in sets. 1curiass, 1 greaves, 1 vambraces, 1 gauntlet, 1 helm, 1 boot, and 2 bracers (sometimes... there are some other wrist items with lower ac but higher wis for the same price, just depends on how the buyer wants to twink his baby cleric..).

It sells on my server, and at a decent price. Do I sell 500 pieces a week? No. Nothing sells that quickly.

Smithing is expensive. Its time consuming. But its doable. I'm proof of that.

Frankly, I hope no other high elves on my server get their smithing higher... :/

~edit:

So by my math, I see an error:

Human Chain Jointing:
Ore Cost (220 large bricks of ore) 440pp
Water Cost to make Rings 2.2pp
Water cost to Make Jointing 4.4pp

HIE Chain Jointing
Ore Cost (220 ENCHANTED bricks of Mithrial) 3960pp
Morning Dew to make Rings 550
Morning Dew to make Jointing 11000

should read:

Human Chain Jointing:
Ore Cost (220 large bricks of ore) 440pp
Water Cost to make Rings 2.2pp
Water cost to Make Jointing 4.4pp

HIE Chain Jointing
Ore Cost (220 ENCHANTED bricks of Mithrial) 3960pp
Morning Dew to make Rings 0
Morning Dew to make Jointing 0

[Quillium]

Now.. bearing with me that its like 5am here and i may get into a little bit of a rambling mode, i'll try to address your response coherently :>.

Cavel said:
----
Quillium... PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Tell me who will buy HIE cultural? I have not been able to sell this stuff to players unless they ask me for it... And that is once in a blue moon... I have gotten 3 requests for Old world Cultural since I have made 200 smithing and have actively advertised and had friends advertise for me. The old world stuff does not sell at all!
----
I'm not a High Elf, but i do have a friend who was a High Elf Smith who started at around the same time i did. One of the things that irked me was that she was able to make a living selling stuff that she could make as soon as she cleared fine plate. If i were guessing looking at the high elf cultural, she was selling the Enchanted and Imbued Elven Chainmail to baby twinks. Both trivial well below the 188 at which fine plate will get you to, and mercifully have STATS on them. Iannyen detailed far better than i would who would be looking to buy some of your smithed items and maybe he gave you some ideas on how to sell to it.

Cavel said:
----
Look at the old cultural armors they trivial at the same levels as mine but do not require any more than 1 temper and a store bought, plus an OPAL is only 4pp more than an Emerald......
----
If there is no market for it, then all these items you keep heaping onto my price is just money i bleed from sell back to vendor. Back when searching for ways past 188, I gave Field Plate a try. I dutifully farmed and accumulated 60 combines worth of material. Paid the 3K for the ore and ran the set. IIRC, i got 0 bumps, quite a few successes, and when i tried selling these statless wonders back to vendor, I found it sold for like 25pp. So i basically had to pay a minimum of 25pp per combine for the right just to run *a* combine. Furthermore, this doesn't include the lumped in price of possibly buying leather padding on the market, temper materials, or whatever.

The thing that makes fine plate so nice is the fact you get back the cost of ore and mold. You can choose to farm the leather padding or no, if you do farm you get back almost of what you paid for the combine, but not quite. Had the sellback to vendor on cultural even entered the zip code of the price of ore and mold, it might have actually been something I would have considered over Shadowscream. Oh ya.. and as a human warrior at lower levels it wasn't possible to 'farm' Starfury Cyclops's out in OOT :>. I suppose its possible i could have killed 1, maybe, but after that i spend half an hour regenning hp. So the cost on Mugs of Sea Foam was 10p per... or 2 per temper. You also didn't factor in.. that Saltwater Seaweed used to both be no drop and non-stackable. It didn't take a lot of Seaweed to fill up your inventory and there isn't exactly a brew barrel to run your combines out in OOT with. And nothin says lovin like the boat back to Freeport :>.

The other option was to do Qeynos stuff, and if you think Morning Dew is bad.. Essences of Sunlight would run anywhere from 75-200pp on server and the drop mobs weren't anything I could even contemplate soloing at lower levels.

Cavel said:
----
and if you do not mind sitting on the Cyclops island in OOT then the rest of the temper is nothing to get... So as a human you can get your smithing from 220 (LDON Plate trivial) to 242 with Sea Temper, considering that it takes an average of 20 combines per skill up for a total of 440 combines to get to 242, you will be saving approximately 89408pp 8gp 8sp over a HIE doing the exact same combines.
----

Why do that when i can save all that money by taking that same farming time, probably less, and just farming shadowscream at no cost? At least i don't bleed money every combine, and since there is hardly a heartbeat in human smithing before you start doing Heraldic stuff, I don't have to worry about marketing it. As such, nobody uses Human Cultural to level off of with SS an easier and cheaper alternative both in time and cost per combine. Personally, if you think the grass is so green over here, level a Human and find out. You'll see cultural is just not an option for us to skill up with. Thanks.

-Quillium Lifehammer
65 Warrior Fennin Ro

[Cavel]

Iannyen Water OK water then only cost 5cp by your standards as you CAN combine 3 pods of water to make a water flask.

Ohhh wait a moment... Hmmm HIGH ELVES CANNOT FORAGE!!! wow revelation! So I HAVE to either Level up a toon that will sit in Lesser/greater FD and mash the forage key... OR convince my guildmates to do that for me? Would you do this for a guild member?

Iannyen would you give up your game time to raise a Wood elf to level 30ish just to have it sit for HOURS on end to gather Morning dew? I Refuse to use cheats like some people and leave a forrager on to Macro some Morning dew.

Also you miss the point DO ANY OTHER RACES, ANY OTHERS need to rely on another race to get ANY Portion of the Cultural Temper... NAME ONE.

Quillium To answer your post I will say Fine let us factor in 20pp into the equation for the SeaFoam... Then let me see... Ohhh 20pp per Moonlight in the Bazaar... 2 Moonlight for each temper... OK now lets look at Seaweed Maybe 20pp Per in bazaar... Swirling mist 20pp per.. OK so My temper is still more expensive to buy then yours.

I have claimed this as a skill up route based on the information presented not only on the Main site but also in the Smithing guide that EVERYONE states is the best out there Zeralenn's Economical Smith Version 2... I have yet to go over Version 3.

Essence of Sunlight is Easy if you know where to hunt and have a good healer and Slower. I have given away to human smiths 2-3 Stacks of the stuff. People are afraid to loose buffs when fighting.

Just My 2 Bits

[Iannyen]

I was going to quote your contradictions, but I ran out of patience and started flaming.

Have fun smithing.

[Moonlilly]

Re: Re: Re: Swirling mist?

Originally posted by Taushar
I belived he was referring to Swirling Mist not Swirling Shadow. While Swirling Shadows drop from Shades on the other island, the Swirling Mists do indeed drop from Air Elementals on the main island. As many has posted, the middle of the main island is where you get ported in to so it's a pain to be KOS to them. One thing to remember is that Air Elementals are invisible on that island. If you want to hunt them, you need see invis on to see them.
Taushar

Actually Swiling Mist drops from the water elementals not the air

[Cavel]

Iannyen Please show me contriditions. I have had several other people read this post and asked for honest opinions. None of them found a contridition.

Infact one of them stated that I undershot the price of Morning Dew by 10pp per. Also I mentioned in my original post that both the high elf and the human were buying 1 part of the temper and the item used for subcombines.

Lastly ground spawns of the items happen only once every ninty minutes last I checked, cept for the time that BBM was having fits. so doing the math there again for 440 combines of 3 sheet items:

1 Dew for the Temper 90min * 440 tempers = 39600 minutes
1 Dew for the Bricks to Blocks * 1320 sheets = 118800 minutes
1 Dew for the rings * 220 large bricks = 19800 Minutes
1 dew for the Jointing * 440 Rings = 39600 Minutes

Grand Total Time for picking up the Free Morning dew (Assuming you can find it) = 217800 Minutes OR 36.3 hours.

Total time to Buy all the stuff needed from a Vendor for the Human or OTHER race smithing MAYBE 2 hours.

Again I am speaking only of the Temper and Sub-combine items here. Dwarves have to rely on an enchanter from a different race to enchant the Brellium.

EDIT:
I would like to point out that I was not talking resale value on any of the posts only raw cost... Plus if I were to get say 352 BP's out of the 440 Combines (Figured an 80% rate over all) I do not think I would be able to sell them to players. They are after all specialized Cleric or Paladin Items based on the stats.

Realistically I would say that the cultural armors should all be suitable for lower level characters (Stats and AC wise).

I also realize I was a bit harsh in one or two of my past posts and for that I am sorry.

[Iannyen]

You are firstly, focusing on the subcombines, which, if you do that, to a degree, you are correct, the subs are more difficult to do. But skillups (ie the point of smithing) only come from final product combines.

So I will concede, that, the HIE subcombines for mithril jointing is harder than human jointing, and more expensive.

But please take a second and look at the armor that they make.
Yeah, you might not sell every item you make as a HIE, but compared to the humans, you at least have a chance at breaking even, by selling some of the final product.

Now. Contradictions:
____________________________________________

Brownies in Lfay brownie village now drop Morning dew as a rare drop... I suggest making a WoodElf Ranger and foraging with that character in Lesser Fay, or if you are in a guild ask them to keep an eye out.

One method I used when I was in a smaller, younger guild was asking druids to bring me 2x the materials needed for the chain tunic and belt (By far the best sellers I had). If you are successfull on the first attempt you have some extra for yourself, if not then you have another attempt for them. Most people accept this as a standard thing when you ask someone to do a combine.

Good Luck!


__________________
Baron Cavel Cade
65 Paladin
227 High Elven Smith
Draconis Valorim
Tunare

Ohhh wait a moment... Hmmm HIGH ELVES CANNOT FORAGE!!! wow revelation! So I HAVE to either Level up a toon that will sit in Lesser/greater FD and mash the forage key... OR convince my guildmates to do that for me? Would you do this for a guild member?

Iannyen would you give up your game time to raise a Wood elf to level 30ish just to have it sit for HOURS on end to gather Morning dew? I Refuse to use cheats like some people and leave a forrager on to Macro some Morning dew.

Also you miss the point DO ANY OTHER RACES, ANY OTHERS need to rely on another race to get ANY Portion of the Cultural Temper... NAME ONE.

Now, looking at those 2 posts, by you, you don't HAVE to be a forraging race to get morning dews. Would it be quicker? Yeah. I don't like having to buy tons of morning dew to smith. But I do, because, at a reasonable pace, I can make armor, sell it, buy more dew, and get skillups. You said yourself, that brownies can drop it occasionally, thus negating the need to forrage. You commented that your own guildies foraged some and would give it to you. With the new butcherblock LDoN's, plenty of forragers are running between BB and LFay, so thats 2 zones to run thru to get morning dews, to and from an adventure.

Does it help speed things up be relying on others help, their generosity, and donation of dew and time? Yes. But this entire game is about co-operation, something that is all too often forgotten.

I like to feel that I'm getting my skill raises the way it was meant to be. By making armor, and selling it to the player market, not mass producing it and selling it back to NPC's for a few coppers on the plat.


What I dislike more is that human BD cultural gets to use Infused Velium rings, while we have to use folded Velium. So humans get 2 rings from a large brick of velium, whereas we get 1 sheet from a block. Now thats injustice if you ask me.

[Koru]

Um, wouldn't it be easier to just kill the fairies for morning dew than to make a forage alt to forage for it? No one seems to be really mentioning that as an alternative.

Ok, so not the most RPing logical thing to do but it's not as if the little buggers are used in any major quests and it would speed up the process. I mean I'd rather not want to hunt the Twilight Sea elementals for my race's temper components but I imagine eventually I'll either have to sacrifice that faction or accept having to take a slower route. The option is still going to be in there though.

Although if personally I'm doing LDoN armor to skill up for as long as I can. I get the temper components while fighting in dungeons from drops and by now I have very well dressed alts. It's quite nice to skill up if you do the adventures. Once I finish with them I'll do SS (or possibly velium combine, not sure which yet). I've already done a lot of farming for it and I'm quite far from uber in any way, so it's not as though that's a requirement to do SS. In some ways clerics have it better in SS farming than my paladin smith thanks to their PBAEs.

I know I'd rather have a foraged and dropped component than only foraged as I'm going to need for tailoring soon. That being said, yeah it bites that the elven cultural uses morning dew for basic manipulation of ore. Why not ask for something similar to the dwarven situation with drops of mercury? A storebought combine rogues could do to refine one of their poison components into morning dew. I'm sure it would make the rogues happy since there's not a lot a rogue can make with that skill that anyone other than another rogue can use.

[Cavel]

Iannyen,

You are correct, if others that can forage remember to hit the button it will be faster and Possibly free... And I was indeed focusing on the subcombines mainly.

And Yeah I suggested it as a possibility to make a Ranger to get the Morning Dew But my point is that we should not HAVE to do that.

High Elves can use rings to make the high end Caster Cultural but Not many folks want it as most casters do not follow Tunare, thus an unsellable item.

Koru... I am Beyond the LDoN stuff but I do recommend it as a skill up path (Especially the Chain).

I am going to try a bit of an experiment this month in that I will Get a Human Cleric of Rochet Nife up to Level 30 or 35 and Smith with him to see how bad the Human Freeport cultural is. Now I am going to use my Higher level Characters to farm and Fish the other 2 parts of the temper but that is only because I do not wish to get the Human Cleric to 65.

[Taushar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Swirling mist?

Originally posted by Moonlilly
Actually Swiling Mist drops from the water elementals not the air

Are you sure about that Moonlilly? As I have stated, I don't hunt at the Twilight island. However, I do remember hunting in Steamfont for Swirling Mists and they dropped from Air Elementals. I don't remember seeing Water Elementals in Steamfont at all. Of course it's been ages since I hunted there so my memory can not be trusted 100%.

Taushar

[Cavel]

100% sure on the Water Elementals for Swirling mist... The Air Elementals drop Essence of wind for the Combine Acrylia temper.

The Steamfont MNT. Elementals were/are Steam Elementals.

[Moonlilly]

We're both right Taushar! I remember mist dropping from air elementals in steamfont "back in the day" but like you its been ages since I've been there. But I am 100% that only the water eles in Twilight drop them.

[Iannyen]

Aren't the elementals in Steamfont "Steam Elementals"?

Its definately Water elementals in TS.

[Cavel]

Yup they are Steam Elementals not air elementals.

http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.shtml?zone=58

Shows no air elementals in Steamfont.