Comprehensive study of Hollowshade war

[Xorshaik]

I've read alot, and I've been working at the war hardcore over the past couple weeks and I'm sure many have more experience than I. I know it's been discussed alot (and I'll try to link other discussions in this post for reference when I get a chance)

I'd like to try to consolidate what answers we have, sort out what answers are solid, and what answers are not so solid.. And ultimately find out what questions are perhaps unanswered as of yet for possible study (which I am willing and eager to be part of)

I'll start off mostly with my general understanding of what others have said and with my own personal experiences.

At the very basics:
-Once Hollowshade Moor comes up, there are 3 warring camps: NW caves have Owlbears, NE caves have Sonic Wolves and Southern islands and SW wall have Grimlings.
-These camps attack eachother, and these attacks are usually accompanied by zone messages.
-In these zone messages, the camps are referred to as North (owlbears at zone startup), East (sonic wolves at zone startup) and South (grimlings at zone startup). (This naming is what folks usually use in discussing HS war, so that's the conventions I will use)
-Wailing and Shrieking substances needed for Shadowscream (popular smithing skillup path) drop best when Owlbears or Sonic Wolves respectively own the South camp, and the good drop rate only applies to the respective creatures within the South camp (particularly the islands, even though more than the islands is included with ownership of the South camp)
-When one camp attacks another, the defending camp will spawn a batch of defenders (number depends on the species involved) which are rooted and which will summon if they are not at full health.
-When one camp attacks another, the attacking camp will spawn uniquely named attackers which will be non-agressive to PC's and which will head towards the defenders.

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I think all of the above is basic and not in dispute.

In the interest of smithing skillups it is desirable to be able to control this process, as 2 species are desired within a camp that can only hold 1 at a time. (side note- for sonic wolf bane weapon quests, the zone status as it is at zone startup is desired)

Can it be controlled and how effectively? This is the big question and the best way of doing so is the answer everyone seeks.

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The above are basic facts. The rest isn't necessarily as concrete IMO.

Popularly believed is the fact that without player intervention, defenders will always win. I personally have seen camps taken over shortly after a server reset, and with nobody present in the zone. I'm inclined to believe this is not always necessarily true.

Some folks will say you can get a camp to go on the offensive by taking out its boss mob. Some might say this gets that camp attacked... I've seen it happen both ways, and I've also seen nothing happen. Is there a pattern? Is there certain conditions where this does or does not work?

Obviously when one species owns all camps, the zone is stuck until reset. Does this happen in other states? Druzzil Ro is presently owned by wolves in the North and East, and Owlbears in the south. I've been there many hours over the past 4 days and seen no attacks, and tried all combinations of provocation. Will owlbears only attack from their caves? Will Wolves only attack if someone else is in a position of potential aggression? Why is it that in a startup setting that many attacks take place not involving a wolf or owlbear being aggressive towards the Grimlings in the south?

More thoughts later, time for lunch~

[Arou]

Re: Comprehensive study of Hollowshade war

which are rooted

They are not rooted in the sense of the spell Root. They will certainly follow and attack if you move off a short distance... I frequently pull 1 away from the others to avoid taking on all at once. What they will not do is follow you very far. Finding a comfortable spot between where you can draw them off and where they will summon you takes practice.

the attacking camp will spawn uniquely named attackers

They are not uniquely named in the sense that they are named mobs. They have a special name different from the wanderers and static spawns.

Can it be controlled and how effectively?

Of course it can be controlled. How effectively it can be controlled depends only on other players, not on the mechanics of the war itself.

The ideal situation would have all three up after a reset. A team would wait in the south until either wolves or owlbears attack the grimlings. When the defenders would spawn, they would kill the defenders. The attackers would win and the south would have one of the two desired races. You would then farm this. When you have enough of the particular substance, you would wait for the other race to attack the south. Kill the defenders, then the other substance you need. Simple enough, eh? I personally have done this and seen it done.

The problems arise from other players. If you are slow to get there after a reset, someone may have helped the grimlings take over wolves or owlbears. Also, while you have wolves or owlbears in the south as I described, someone may take it on themselves to change the situation by helping an attack on one of the wolves' or owlbears' native camps.

To avoid problems with other players, you have to negotiate and be willing to take action. I have had to intentionally killed invaders to avoid a camp being taken over by people unwilling to let it be. With work, you can ensure that no camp is taken over from the ideal situation listed above, but it may not be easy if people will not play nicely. Also, there will be times when you are not there... others will certainly have plenty of time to mess with your carefully setup zone then.

Popularly believed is the fact that without player intervention, defenders will always win. I personally have seen camps taken over shortly after a server reset, and with nobody present in the zone. I'm inclined to believe this is not always necessarily true.

In scores of hours and fighting in and around the war in this zone, this has never been the case for me. Unless you have seen the attackers win, you should not believe they can win. A sufficiently high level person could intervene with the defenders in a very short period of time; one Upheaval from a 55 cleric and all defenders will be dead.

Defenders will always win. I have physically watched the defenders win in almost every combination dozens of times. Usually, they dont even lose a single member. At level 41, I threw in my lot with the attackers and was unable to swing a victory; the defenders are much stronger.

Some folks will say you can get a camp to go on the offensive

I personally have never seriously tested these theories. I have camped named mobs for 4 to 6 hours at a time and it did not generate attacks every time they were killed. In my experience, attacks are simply randomly automated. I feel that it is coincidence that people have seen attacks shortly after named mobs are killed.

Obviously when one species owns all camps, the zone is stuck until reset.

There was definitely a time when this did not happen. I am still curious if there is a way to successfully manage the complete cycle of the war. If there is, it is probably very fragile. The war does frequently get stuck.

Druzzil Ro is presently owned by wolves in the North and East, and Owlbears in the south. I've been there many hours over the past 4 days and seen no attacks, and tried all combinations of provocation.

Many hours? I have been in the zone for 3 or 4 hours continuously and not seen an attack only to see one the next day. I believe attacks are random and somewhat uncommon.

My personal theory on the war being stuck involves a race losing their starting spot, even if they later regain it. The zone coding seems to think that the camp is "taken" and will no longer launch attacks from there. The best bet, therefore, is to maintain the war from reset. After players have had time to mess with it, it invariably becomes stuck.

For some time, I considered a theory that the zone was counting mobs and that the count is wrong. This would explain some of the odd spawning behavior and the one race lock that it achieves.

Will owlbears only attack from their caves?

I have seen races attack from camps they took over. At some point, especially after lots of attacks, the zone seems to stick. If the zone were checking mob counts and section ownership, my guess is this count or check goes wrong. Only a zone reset will fix the counters and markers.

[Xorshaik]

Referrences:
Shadowscream Drop Rate Discussion
Skillup guide, which includes info about HS war
More HS war discussion

Less relevant but still useful references:
Skillup data (human cultural skill path, not SS)
Swirling Shadows discussion
Wailing substance farming in PC[/url]

[Xorshaik]

Re: Comprehensive study of Hollowshade war

They are not rooted in the sense of the spell Root. They will certainly follow and attack if you move off a short distance... I frequently pull 1 away from the others to avoid taking on all at once. What they will not do is follow you very far. Finding a comfortable spot between where you can draw them off and where they will summon you takes practice.

I'm quite certain that with owlbears and sonic wolves the defenders, regardless of which camp they are at, are always rooted.. In the same sense as WToV named dragons, most NToV named dragons, Yelinak, etc are rooted. I've picked up agro on them and had them turn to face me without pursuit while waiting for attackers every time.

I never paid attention to grimlings because as far as I'm concerned, all grimlings can DIE~

They are not uniquely named in the sense that they are named mobs. They have a special name different from the wanderers and static spawns.

Right.. to clarify, you will basicly get a number of similarly named mobs with names you otherwise would never see. Something like Enraged Sonic Wolf, Rampaging Owlbear or whatever. In the case of Grimlings, the fact that the attackers all have the same name does not necessarily mean they are all the same class. Grimlings always have some melee fighters and some healer (shaman).

It is also interesting to note: Owlbears travel in a larger pack, presumably because they do not have healers. Grimlings seem to come in 5's, and do not always travel together. If you search them out, you may even find them standing in place.

Defenders will always win. I have physically watched the defenders win in almost every combination dozens of times. Usually, they dont even lose a single member. At level 41, I threw in my lot with the attackers and was unable to swing a victory; the defenders are much stronger.

I've seen owlbears taken down to the last defender before my own eyes.

I have seen wolves in the north and grimlings in the south and east, 2 hours after the server came back up from patching. With nobody in the zone.

Some folks will say you can get a camp to go on the offensive

I personally have never seriously tested these theories. I have camped named mobs for 4 to 6 hours at a time and it did not generate attacks every time they were killed. In my experience, attacks are simply randomly automated. I feel that it is coincidence that people have seen attacks shortly after named mobs are killed.

I have to agree.. I think it is entirely programming based, and any observations of being able to trigger an attack is only coincidental. It is the same belief I hold for any theories about spawning the AC in S.Ro. Nevertheless, I still try any tactics in case they do work, and because it keeps me busy, and because "I'd piss on a spark plug if I thought it'd do any good."

Obviously when one species owns all camps, the zone is stuck until reset.

There was definitely a time when this did not happen. I am still curious if there is a way to successfully manage the complete cycle of the war. If there is, it is probably very fragile. The war does frequently get stuck.

Druzzil Ro is presently owned by wolves in the North and East, and Owlbears in the south. I've been there many hours over the past 4 days and seen no attacks, and tried all combinations of provocation.

Many hours? I have been in the zone for 3 or 4 hours continuously and not seen an attack only to see one the next day. I believe attacks are random and somewhat uncommon.

My personal theory on the war being stuck involves a race losing their starting spot, even if they later regain it. The zone coding seems to think that the camp is "taken" and will no longer launch attacks from there. The best bet, therefore, is to maintain the war from reset. After players have had time to mess with it, it invariably becomes stuck.

For some time, I considered a theory that the zone was counting mobs and that the count is wrong. This would explain some of the odd spawning behavior and the one race lock that it achieves.

Will owlbears only attack from their caves?

I have seen races attack from camps they took over. At some point, especially after lots of attacks, the zone seems to stick. If the zone were checking mob counts and section ownership, my guess is this count or check goes wrong. Only a zone reset will fix the counters and markers.

Possibly what would be useful is a listing or outlining of what can happen.

Regarding the current status on Druzzil Ro, I'm sure I have well over 24 hours time of my own in total, and anyone else that has been there when I have not has also indicated no attacks.

Maybe this question is worth evaluating.. Does it seem that a creature that loses its home camp stop attacking? Being attacked?

Perhaps a precise definition of how the war is bugged. The coding does not recognize a race as being alive if its original camp is lost, even if that race exists in another camp. This seems consistent with all observations I have had.

[Gymp]

Just thought I'd throw in the few things I've seen and know about the Holowshade War...

- If Sonic Wolves or Grimlings take over all 3 camps, the zone gets "stuck." Nothing special happens, they just hang out in the various camps, named continue to spawn etc. If the zone is in this state, only a server patch or petitioning for a zone reset will bring the other sides back. The reall odd one (on Bristlebane atleast) is the Owlbears. If they take over all 3 camps the zone turns into a ghost town w/ nothing in any of the the camps. As a result of this (on BB) the players who farm the named make sure the Owlbears are wiped out as soon as they are attacked.

- The War can be disabled. As I understand it, the GMs have an option to disable the War due to its buggyness. The way to tell if the war is on or off is look for a Vah Shir named Ahom Guzhin near the Grimling Forest zoneline ( http://www.eqtraders.com/quests/luclin_beyondsonicwolfbane.htm for a brief explaination) If the Vah Shir is up, the War is on. Its possible to spend hrs here w/ no war messages only to discover the war is off.

- The defensive "named" spawns when an attack is on are allways called "A XXXX Defender" with XXX being either Owlbear, Grimling, or Sonic Wolf. The attackers have different names depending on the camp that is attacking. Sonic Wolf Fiends and Grimling Invaders (forget what the Owlbear attackers are called.)

- I have never seen an attack initiated from anything but a camps "Homebase." S. for Grimlings, NW for Owlbears, NE for Sonic Wolves. Also, the only time I have ever seen a defending camp loose w/o player intervention is when they have been attacked by the 2 other camps at the same time (or within a few min of each other.) This could explain the camps being taken over when noone has helped or a zone is empty.

My best strategy for manipulating the War has been to set up my Necro right next to the Grimling Chieftan and play the waiting game. I'm firmly in the "random attack" camp. I have tried killing the various named and never had it trigger (or appear to trigger) an attack with any predictability.

To save my sanity and relieve boredom, I clear the Chieftan and surrounding huts. The Grimling Soldiers and Patroling Grimlings drop Acrylia on a rare/uncommon cycle and the Chieftan has some OK midlevel loot ( Staff of Living Sand, Ceremonial Smudging Stick.) When the S. camp spawns Defenders, I simply pick them off 1 by 1 and leave a single defender. I also kill any healers in the area. When the remaining Defender is down to 1/2 health I send in the pet and dot it to assure a win for the attackers. Then farm substances till my eyes pop out

[Lorddaeth]

how to win the battle

it's real easy to push the tide of battle one way or the other. as a 52 shaman, slowing one side or the other is enough to determine the winner. and slow's won't get ya summoned...ususally

[Arghargh]

Twice I've been able to manipulate the control of the south island by killing the mob where the grimling chieften spawns. Killed mob, south gets attacked by other mob still in zone. I was able to swap control two or three times between the owlbears, and sonic wolves. This was all with no zone wide messages in effect. However, this quickly bugs the zone, and no attacks occur after that.

By far the best strategy is to camp near the grimling chieften before the servers go down so you can be the first in the zone when they come back up. At that time, all mobs will be up, and the war will be on autopilot (zone wide message, and attacks just happen). Wait until the mob you wants attacks the south, and kill all the defenders. Next best strategy is to check the zone every couple of days to see if the mob you want is up. In either case, when the mob you want controls south camp, farm like crazy (200-300 substances).

This zone is bugged. Bugs are hard to predict, or control by their very nature. Although SOE knows this zone is bugged, it doesn't appear to be a high enough priority to actually fix compared with PoP, and whatever the next expansion will be.

Arghargh Grumble, Darkblood
57 Ogre Shaman of Rallos Zek
Alchemy – 165
Baking – 200
Brewing - 200
Fishing - 200
Fletching – 200
Jewelcraft –200
Potting - 200
Grandmaster Smith - 250
Tailoring – 161

[Segal]

The war is extremely buggy, so I would take all percautions to protect whatever clan you wish to win the war.

(1) I have seen the wolves walk directly part Owlbear Defenders to capture the cave. The Defenders did absolutely nothing to stop them. Like an idiot, I sat there and watched them assuming the defenders would always win. I now kill attackers on sight if they are not those I want to win.

(2) I have seen the grimlings take over the wolf camp and then nothing spawn inside the wolf cave from that point onward. Grimling defenders would however spawn outside when the cave was attacked.

[Ugene]

Great thread, but I think we need a little more information to determine whether the war is random, or if not, what the triggers are.

Can I suggest people post:

1) The state of the zone, ie., NW-Owlbear, E-Sonic Wolves, S-Grimlings
2) Mob killed by Name, ie., Ghowlik, sonic wolf packleader, etc.
3) Observed result, ie., nothing, sonic wolves in east are disoriented, defenders spawn and grimlings attack.
4) Outcome of attack, if any (did you help?)

Maybe we can determine likely results given the zone state.

Yesterday, I tried to manipulate the war, with the following results:

1) NW-Grimlings, E-Sonic Wolves, S-Grimlings.
2) Killed sonic wolf packleader twice
3) After each kill, zone announcement that the sonic wolves in the east are disoriented. Zonic wolf defenders spawned, and grimling invaders headed east to fight.
4) Sonic wolves won both times (no help from my posse.)

Later, I killed both Ghowlik (woot, Elder Wolf Hide) and the grimling chieftan in the south (can't remember exact name.) Same zone state, no attack observed.

I also tried killing the kitty, Ahom, that spawns near the Grimling zone. Nothing happened.

[Koutarou]

I had an interesting one today.

When servers came up from the thursday patch I immediately headed to HS, as I had a full pack worth of wailing and no shrieking. First attack that came up was grimlings to owlbear cave. Myself and two guildies headed there, and in transit a second attack on the owllbear cave was declared by the wolves. My guildies and I took out the bears just as the grimlings were arriving, the grimlings took over the camp, and then the wolves came in unopposed 2 minutes later and took control of north away from them. (i.e. if a second attack occurs while one is in progress, no second set of defenders will spawn)

And of course, a couple hours later all my work manipulating the zone was ruined by the emergency patch.

[Segal]

As a smith, I see no advantage to ever having the Grimlings win any of the camps (Acrylia is easier to farm in AC). The best situation I can see would be to have both wolves and bears to retain their home camps and whatever race you need controlling the islands. This allows for a smith to come in later and switch the islands out to fit his needs. Usually my first goal in HS is to eliminate the grimlings.

[Xorshaik]

That is definitely the way to go. For a smith pursuing shadowscream skillups, you just want to be rid of grimlings, and ideally keep owlbears and wolves in their home camps with one of them up in the south.

Problem is that left unsupervised, it is possible that whoever is up in the south camp will go on an attack from 2 fronts and gain control of the whole zone. But at least it leaves something up in the south that can be farmed.

[rassy fleetfoot]

..

im still going to stick with the idea that the war is completely and utterly random.

Last night, me, and 3 other people in the zone, all grouped with me had the sonic wolves up FINALLY on the south islands (stupid owlbears had been up for 2 weeks) Attacks kept going on as we cleared sonic wolves by the metric ton..i never pulled scarflank or his bodyguards since he doesnt drop anything anyway, just the normal substance dropping wolves..2 owlbear attacks on our camp, 2 on the cave to the east..

attackers almost never win on their own..i did see one battle yesterday where the attackers won without assistance but normally they straggle in one at a time and the attackers are much weaker than the defenders.