A New thought on GoD weapons

[Lothay]

Let's not get snippy or accusatory here.

I've already been forced to be heavy-handed with a thread about this same issue in the PSR, involving many of the same posters. Please do not turn this thread into something else that needs editing or locking.

[Delores Mulva]

Ragnarz, you're Zomg, aren't you?

You cant have it both ways. You cant complain that tradeskills are worthless. Then when SOE finally creates items that have some real value to them, you cant complain that the common player is actually getting some value out of an expansion they wont see more then 25% of.

Ever noticed that different groups have these different complaints? I'm not a "tradeskills are worthless" crusader. I've had specific complaints, like the lack of uses for Kod'Taz baking, pottery, alchemy, and poison making drops, but I've been happy with how tradeskills have worked in EQ for quite some time.

But getting value? Are you kidding me? My RL best friend got one of these daggers, made by me specifically for her. She was delighted with it, and the damage it put out, until (to be annoying) I said, "You realize you won't upgrade that for years at the rate you play, right?" Now she's got one less thing to aim for, one less goal to attain. She doesn't have the play time to use this dagger to obtain a better raid-drop dagger, there isn't a better droppable dagger in game, stick in the fork, she's done. It's demoralized her, because for her character progress is doing more and more DPS, and I just took away most of her progress path by clicking "trade".

This arguement is rooted on one of the oldest fears in Everquest, competiton. Most high end guilds dont want to see a trickle effect on loot. They certainly do not want to see the casual player gain even half the power they have as individuals. High end guilds do not want to lose the stranglehold they have over small guilds and casuals on the progression in Everquest.

I could give a casual player whatever gear they wanted and they won't be competing with me any time soon. High end raiding is all about playtime. You don't have the playtime (the definition of casual), you won't be getting past the hours-long trash clears and the hours-long events. (The idea of blocking progress is also dated, with almost every progress event in GoD being located in an instanced zone, but this still applies to people doing old content.)

The only reason most ppl dont like GOD weapons being sold is now Joe Blow Casual might, I point out again MIGHT, have the DPS to actually move forward in POP or heaven forbid GOD, an expansion they paid real money for.

Let them come. I'm in a Tacvii guild - end zone of GoD. We still do Time, but will end that soon and with that comes the end of our involvement with PoP. Our focus is Ikkinz raid 4 (instanced), Uqua (instanced), Qvic (not instanced, 6 hour repop time on main loot mobs), Inktu'ta (instanced), Txevu (not instanced, most content so bad for RvR we don't touch it even though we're the only guild on the server that can access it), Tacvii (instanced). Point out where the competition will interfere with us.

But again, to bang the point home - Joe Casual isn't going to advance for squat until either he starts playing more, or mudflation makes the content he's attempting trivial. These weapons are roughly equal to the end-game weapons of Luclin - not good enough, PoP was designed for people with those weapons.

Look at what sector of Everquest is most vocal against new Armor sets being added to LDON merchants or GOD weapons and the associated drop rates.

Not me, I'm all for it. See, I'm clever enough to look at the LDoN rankings for my server. After nearly a year, the top 100 on my server have 300 or more wins (300 gets you 100th place). Most of the top 100 are in top guilds. The casuals aren't gearing up in amazing numbers with LDoN gear, mainly because they don't have the time to do so - they're casual. So even if I was threatened by floods of well-geared players coming into the game, I sure wouldn't be worried about it happening through LDoN.

I'm glad you brought up LDoN, though. Consider a single piece of top end gear from LDoN, unaugmented, one of the best items a casual player can hope to get in a particular slot. 1492 points. The fastest someone can complete an LDoN adventure and receive another is 45 minutes, the reward for a normal at level 65 is 51 points. (1492/51)x0.75 = 21.94 hours, call it 22 hours. Wait, we get six of those during that time since everyone is getting points!

The same group, doing XP in Kod'Taz, just got 22x(7/8) = 19 weapons in that time. That's with the 7/8ths completion rate included. Six versus 19. You don't see the problem?

They will still be doing the same thing they did last week, likely farming greens for tradeskills or meeting with a few buddies in BOT for EXP, or the occasional quest mob camp.

Just exactly how is that "Alarming" and harmful to the game?

What they won't be doing is any quests or camps to improve their weaponry. There's no need - they have something better than anything else they could go get. The number one complaint by casuals from the SOE summit is they didn't have anything to do, that past a certain point you needed raids to progress. These weapons remove content from the game for casuals, make it pointless for them to do. It's taking the problem that they themselves say makes them quit and makes it worse.

Has it ever occured to you that perhaps making only top line weapons is not the way to approache the problem?

Yup, especially because of the differing level limits as you pointed out. But making the lesser weapons ends up leaving money on the table for me, since I can sell the better ones at higher prices. It would help my short-term problem of overstock, since I could move more units in a given time frame, but reduces profit overall. I'm selling for a guild bank, which has no interest in whether casual players quit or not, just in maximal profit.

Actually, I disagree. All you can easily see is that the drop rate is higher than the elemental drop rate. This could VERY easily be used to show that the elemental drop rate is "entirely too low."

Ok, take it to the extreme, then. Let's assume the elemental tradeskill items were as common as these weapons are, so for 10 K you could fill any slot on your body with a top droppable at level 65. There's 20 slots to fill excluding Charm, so 10x20 = 200 K pp needed. I've seen my casual friend the 65 rogue PL her brother's 57 SK in Sebilis, along with a bot casual 65 cleric, and earn 1 K per hour doing it from the gem drops. So 200 hours of adventuring for Joe Casual.

And then?

To quote "Dude, Where's My Car": No "and then". You're done. You don't have the time to get raid drops, you don't have any better gear in the game to try to attain, you are done. And you quit. You quit like all the people I've seen before who quit the moment they get their epic, or after they get that big item they always dreamed of getting, because they have no more goals in EQ, no reason to keep playing. The best part of EQ is that there's always a carrot at the end of the stick to keep you going, to spur you on. You don't cut the string, hand the carrot to the mule, and say "there you go, Casual Mule!"

Edited out snippy part.

[Lothay]

And since the snippy comments continue, I'm editing the posts in question.

Further personal digs will result in a closing of the thread, and if serious enough, temporary bans.

[Delores Mulva]

Lothay, could you please PM me with any modifications you make to my posts? I don't want to debate whether something is or is not "snippy", I just want to see what you call "snippy" so as to not post that way. Thank you!

[Aneya]

Yup, especially because of the differing level limits as you pointed out. But making the lesser weapons ends up leaving money on the table for me, since I can sell the better ones at higher prices. It would help my short-term problem of overstock, since I could move more units in a given time frame, but reduces profit overall. I'm selling for a guild bank, which has no interest in whether casual players quit or not, just in maximal profit.

You yourself admit that you wish to maximize profits. I will let others draw their own conclusions on why you want the drop rate toned down.

[Deelit60]

The flaw in Delores' logic is that you do not really remove content by creating these weapons. You make it sound as if someone would camp dagger A, use it to camp dagger B, and that to camp C and so on until you had a weapon like gemmed or velium inlaid.

Except people don't do that. People camp the best weapon they can, they head straight for C. By bringing GoD weapons into the game the only thing that changes is one can now camp for money anywhere and take longer as opposed to camping a specific place and hoping to get lucky on a shorter spawn. The fact that GoD weapons "trivialize" camping PoP weapons is true but pointless, each expansion creates better things than what used to be camped.

Similarly, I don't think that adding the weapons removes something for the casuals "to do." You make a point of saying someone would be sad realizing that the weapon they just got won't be upgraded for a long time, but don't point out that it is exactly tradeskilled items like these weapons that allow them to attempt things they couldn't previously do (for example these weapons would be useful for sewers, whereas earlier PoP weapons are very bleh :/)

Finally, you bring up a point about LDoN and how 6 armor pieces enter in for every 22hrs a group spends there. You compare this to elemental tradeskilled items but don't mention Ornate armor, which enters in at a nearly similar rate to the GoD smithed weapons and can similarly be purchased by casuals. Some Ornate armor (at least on bertox) has fallen to the 3kish range. Does this trivialization of former armor camps for minimal PP ruin the game? No.

It will shortly become that GoD smithed weapons are the baseline casual bazaar item, just as Ornate is. This is no different than how things used to be with quested velious armor or other armors from expansions. I agree that there are only two reasons for wanting the drop rate nerfed:

1) To put more money / economic power into the hands of those that already have a lot of dropped items.

2) A desire to see the casuals have to work harder / pay more for loot.

Both seem counter to what SoE is working for especially considering the fact that WoW looms on the horizon.

[Aethn]

You yourself admit that you wish to maximize profits. I will let others draw their own conclusions on why you want the drop rate toned down.

Exactly !!

I am willing to bet people are mad because GOD shimmer weapons no longer sell for 120k, but go for a solid 35-55k now, far more reasonable. These are the same people who used to buy up any ornate under 40k in bazaar, to protect their own pocketbooks. Not to protect the "health and balance of the game".

What they won't be doing is any quests or camps to improve their weaponry. There's no need - they have something better than anything else they could go get. The number one complaint by casuals from the SOE summit is they didn't have anything to do, that past a certain point you needed raids to progress. These weapons remove content from the game for casuals, make it pointless for them to do. It's taking the problem that they themselves say makes them quit and makes it worse.

You cant be farther from accurate here. Last fact sheet I read by SOE put the game at well over 220+ zones, with more then 12,000 unique quests or tasks. No way could acquiring one blade grind the casual player to a halt. Casuals did NOT complain that there was nothing to do. the chief complaint was that there was little to no way to move forward without joining a raid guild. They had plenty to do, just they wanted top of the line goods and monsters just like anyone else paying a subscription does. Again, flawed logic on your part.

Edited for spelling, never content.

[Delores Mulva]

I am willing to bet people are mad because GOD shimmer weapons no longer sell for 120k, but go for a solid 35-55k now, far more reasonable. These are the same people who used to buy up any ornate under 40k in bazaar, to protect their own pocketbooks. Not to protect the "health and balance of the game".

(1) GoD weapons sell, on my server, for between 8 K (low price on claws) to 12 K (middling price on non-claws). If these weapons sold for 35 to 55 K, I'd have no problem whatsoever because there's plenty of room under 35 K for other weapons to be sold.
(2) I am selling for my guild's bank. I see 10% commission on sales, and get costs repaid. That is the limit of my financial involvement with the price of Velium Gemmed weaponry. I used to sell the weapons for personal gain, but I no longer do so as it would put me in a conflict of interest with selling guild weapons.
(3) I have never bought up anything to shore up prices in The Bazaar.

You cant be farther from accurate here. Last fact sheet I read by SOE put the game at well over 220+ zones, with more then 12,000 unique quests or tasks.

If one easy task is better to do than one thousand other tasks, the one thousand other tasks might as well not be in game. They're pointless. My point would not be an issue if Velium Gemmed weapons were not the best droppable weapons in game, as then people would have content to consume after they'd purchased one. I didn't complain about the drop rate until the patch where HP/MANA/END was added to the weapons, making them exceptional rather than a high DPS option - them being best in the game is important to this discussion.

No way could acquiring one blade grind the casual player to a halt.

Tell me the next weapon the casual player will attempt to obtain after they get Velium Gemmed, which does not require a raid and which doesn't involve resources that could be better spent (for example, buying the top chain armour from LDoN instead of the LDoN top aug'ed piercer for a minimal DPS upgrade).

Answer: there isn't one. That is the definition of "grinding to a halt". Does the casual player have other things to do? Yes, of course there's armour slots to be improved. But for someone capable of using one of these weapons, these are the most dramatic improvements one could make to one's character.

Casuals did NOT complain that there was nothing to do. the chief complaint was that there was little to no way to move forward without joining a raid guild.

So there's plenty of content, but none of it advances your character. That sounds exactly like what I described above with the thousand useless quests. A lack of meaningful content is exactly the problem facing casual players.

They had plenty to do, just they wanted top of the line goods

And now they, and anyone else with 10 K plat, can get them. And then what?

The fact that GoD weapons "trivialize" camping PoP weapons is true but pointless, each expansion creates better things than what used to be camped.

How many times throughout the history of EQ has the best droppable item in a given category been replaced by an insanely-common item? How many times have insanely-common items of exceptional quality (not even top-of-the-line, merely exceptional) had their drop rates nerfed? History is on my side.

You make a point of saying someone would be sad realizing that the weapon they just got won't be upgraded for a long time, but don't point out that it is exactly tradeskilled items like these weapons that allow them to attempt things they couldn't previously do (for example these weapons would be useful for sewers, whereas earlier PoP weapons are very bleh

Players can and do complete sewers without velium gemmed weapons or raid weapons. Arguing that commonality should be preserved on gemmed weapons so people can do sewers is like arguing that the Blade of Carnage should be made common as it would allow groups that couldn't otherwise do sewers to do them.

Finally, you bring up a point about LDoN and how 6 armor pieces enter in for every 22hrs a group spends there. You compare this to elemental tradeskilled items but don't mention Ornate armor, which enters in at a nearly similar rate to the GoD smithed weapons and can similarly be purchased by casuals.

(1) I don't believe that ornate drops come into the world at nearly one per hour for each and every group camping areas where ornate can drop. However, I don't have enough personal information on some ornate camps to refute you completely. I will say that ornate doesn't drop at close to that rate in Solusek Ro's Tower, supposedly the "big place" for ornate drops.
(2) Ornate isn't, with very few exceptions, the best droppable item in a given slot for players at top levels. LDoN hard gear is better, elemental tradeskill items are better, there's singleton items that are better (eg. White Dragon Helm), there's plenty of other options available to work towards after you purchase that cheap ornate armour. Velium Gemmed weapons are top-of-the-line.

It will shortly become that GoD smithed weapons are the baseline casual bazaar item

You can't set the baseline at the best item. You need a progression from the baseline.

I agree that there are only two reasons for wanting the drop rate nerfed:

1) To put more money / economic power into the hands of those that already have a lot of dropped items.

2) A desire to see the casuals have to work harder / pay more for loot.

It's the first part of number two - a desire to see casual players work hard for loot, the same as every other player does for every other item in the game. The entire game is built around progression, without it the game is pointless.

[Akishka]

The entire game is built around progression, without it the game is pointless.

I know a lot of people who play the game because they enjoy the social interaction. Then there is the dozens of ways to measure progression. People on here discuss spending hours upon hours raising their tradeskills. Progression yes, but not the kind thats going to be hampered by getting a new shiny weapon. I know some people who are intent upon learning every language. Some people want to get every skill they have over 200. People like checking out the new zones and doing quests, sometimes even if its not an upgrade for what they currently have. Others like building sucessful guilds which allow a large number of people to try new things together. For my husband, the velium gemmed dagger is a valued part of his weapon collection, but the collection itself is certainly more important to him than the single item.

If your premise was true, that progression is the entire game AND progression is measured in what you are wearing, you would be correct. However, I don't think that everybody measures things that way or even views the game in terms of progression. I would also think that most people who do only play for the intent and purpose of getting that urber item is probably already in a raiding guild capable of getting them good stuff. An awsome item doesn't hurt a casual player because the causal player is likely enjoying many more faucets of the game.

Now, I will agree this really hurts the weapon economy. But then, the causal player isn't going to care much about that either.

[Eridalafar]

Next weapon?

What about a OoW ones? It happen at eatch expension; better, faster and making the old ones cheaper to get (it have been that since that player have begun to farm bronze weapon).

Eridalafar

[Astroshak]

Eridalafar, given the sheer potency of GoD smithed weapons, I'd be really suprised if weapons made up the bulk fo the smithing given to us in OW. I'm of the opinion that we're going to be getting armor this next time around . . . or almost nothing, like we got in LoY.

[muana]

velium gemmed weapons

What I think many of you need to consider here is that this expansion was a stepping stone to the next expansion. Thereby making it so that these weapons aren't going to be completely powerful for the next expansion. It will be the basics of what you will need in order to do decently in OOW.

With this in mind, there are way way more powerful weapons in GoD that are nodrop. When SOE put in cultural equipment they left out for the most part weapons, this is a way they helped the tradeskillers have something to do. GoD was bigtime into the other equipment as well.

I believe they want the new expansions to be used by the "masses" and not the few (as PoP was for longer then they wanted)

Now when OOW comes out many of you who were farming/raiding in GoD will be able to go there immediately since you have the newer weapons (the nodrop) and equipment. A new group will go to GoD thus leaving more room for others to go to PoP. I believe this is what SOE has in mind, to give more people a shot without having to be in the top 5-10 guilds on the given server.

Muana

[Nephyr Silverhand]

For one thing, you can only worry about 60+ players having this- required levels are nice! That means you wont see all the newbies that can collect plat running around with one. That was one point I had noticed in the discussion.

The other thing I have noticed about these weapons, is that they are the level of equiptment a player needs to do well in GoD, for progression. This is allowing more casual players, or newer players just getting to 65 and guilded, to progress straight into the GoD zones, without having to back-farm elementals and time for gear. Just a thought.

[solithan]

Awsome thread thanks for all the info. I use to read these boards a lot but sorta ran low on time to keep up. My friends who don't play everquest have always asked me if "i've won yet". Apparently all I need do to "win" is buy one of these weapons that suposedly sell for next to nothing and I win!
Sweet!

As I post this I realize i'm standing naked with my gemmed velium uberness in my hand ready to win but can I really win this game with only a weapon?... Is there perhapse some GoD smithed armor that I can get to help me be done?

Someone metioned something about elemental armor or something like that, I dont really know what that is, but I'm sure GoD must have something right?


Thanks in advance,
Solithan