Is it supposed to be this expensive?

[Whipcream]

I've been learning some of the new spell research for old spells, and I have to wonder... is it supposed to be this expensive? I suppose at higher levels the game wants you into a gold sink, but even the lower level ones are jumping up in price. I mean, just look at these changes.

Not only must you consider the cost, but that cost is doubled if you fail the combine once. I'm not going to list the full recipe, just the expensive stuff.

Strip Enchantment - level 22 Enchanter spell
Old Method: Find Tasarin's Grimoire left & Tasarin's Grimoire right --- (cost: Free, with 2 dropped components)

New Method: Find a Raw Fine Hide. Then pay for Yarrow (26 plat), 2x Jade (7.3 plat), Quill of the Coercer (1 plat), Ink Additive of the Nameless (0.5 plat), Ink of Druzzil Ro (3 plat), and Fine Hide Solution (1.7 plat) --- (cost: 39.5 plat, with 1 dropped component)

Tepid Deeeds - level 23 Enchanter spell
Old Method: Find Velishoul's Tome 8 & Velishoul's Tome 9 --- (cost: Free, with 2 dropped components)

New Method: Find a Raw Fine Hide. Then pay for Yarrow (26 plat), 2x Jade (7.3 plat), Ink of Bertoxxulous (3 plat), Quill of Coercer (1 plat), Fine Hide Solution (1.7 plat), Quill of the Coercer (1 plat), Luclin's Ink Additive (0.5 plat), and Ink of the Listless (2.5 plat) --- (cost: 43 Plat, with 1 dropped component, and you have to smith a Skinning Knife)

Levitation - level 50 Enchanter/Wizard/Shaman/Druid spell
Old Method: Find Rune of Conglomeration & Rune of Current --- (cost: Free, with 2 dropped components)

New Method #1: Find a Grubby Crude Spell Scroll. Then pay for 2 Emeralds (27.2 plat), Elderberry (0.5 plat), Ink of Xegony (3 plat), Ink Additive of Nameless (0.5 plat), Quill of Arcanist (1 plat), 4 Vial's of Pure Water (8 plat), Amber (2.6 plat), and Aqua Regia (152 plat) --- (cost: 194.8 plat, with 1 dropped component)

-OR-

New Method #2: Find a Grubby Crude Spell Scroll, 2 Crystallized Sulfur, and 3 Saltpeter. Then pay for 2 Emeralds (27.2 plat), Elderberry (0.5 plat), Ink of Xegony (3 plat), Ink Additive of Nameless (0.5 plat), Quill of Arcanist (1 plat), 6 Vial's of Pure Water (12 plat), Amber (2.6 plat), and 3 Gnomish Heat Source's (3 plat) --- (cost: 49.8 plat, with 6 dropped components)

Color Cloud - level 63 Enchanter spell (there was no old method for this, but still look at cost)
Old Method: none

New Method #1: Find a Shabby Vellum Parchment. Then pay for Mystic Ash (12.5 plat), Opal (17.8 plat), Topaz (5.2 plat), Ink of Marr (2.5 plat), Quill of Coercer (1 plat), 4 Vial's of Pure Water (4 plat), 3 Gnomish Heat Source (3 plat), Aqua Regia (152 plat), 3 Gold Bars (31.5 plat), and a Platinum Bar (105 plat) --- (cost 334.5 plat, with 1 dropped component)

-OR-

New Method #2: Find a Shabby Vellum Parchment, 2 Crystallized Sulfur, and 3 Saltpeter. Then pay for Mystic Ash (12.5 plat), Opal (17.8 plat), Topaz (5.2 plat), Ink of Marr (2.5 plat), Quill of Coercer (1 plat), 6 Vial's of Pure Water (6 plat), 6 Gnomish Heat Source's (6 plat), 3 Gold Bars (31.5 plat), and a Platinum Bar (105 plat) --- (cost: 187 plat, with 6 dropped components)


Pages, runes, and words were selling in the Bazaar for 10-50 plat. These new scrolls, hides, and parchments are selling for 200-1500 plat.

It used to be a matter of just finding the components. But now it's less found components, but I am using precious gems and expensive gold/platinum bars to make a spell scroll. Keep in mind I am not an ultra-rich level 80, and I don't buy online gold (and I am beginning to think that Sony is running these 'sell plat' sites I keep seeing in game.)

I used to make Levitation spells from runes and sell them in the Bazaar for 200 plat each. Now it is not worth the trouble, at least to me. If I were to make 5 Levitation scrolls at once, it would cost me 1k plat now. It would be easier to go to The Deep and camp the Underbulk that drops the complete spell instead.

What is the point of getting rid of old spell research and replacing it with (instead of adding to) this new multiple combines and platinum sink spell research?

Or is there a large upside to this that I am missing?

[Bobaten]

You are ignoring the yields on many of these combines.
Yarrow + 2 Jade makes 40 Debilitating Thickeners, not 1.
Similarly Vial of Pure water has a cost of 4 gold each, not 2 platinum each, because the yield is 5.

[Zaltak]

You can save some of the cost of Aqua Rega's by makeing em yourself.Just gotta save up a bunch of sulphurs and saltpeters.

[Ngreth Thergn]

It is supposed to give a choice.

More sub combines (as people have mentioned) for less money.

or

More Money, by buying some components.

[Ladayen]

which server

I'm not sure which server you're on but on Tunare but I used to sell levitation for 2-2.5k. As far as future costs for me it took a large initial investment but now I have the main components for all 60-70 spells and songs and I make them on demand. I skill up and make money at the same time. Offer to make spells for your guild at cost(maybe your guild will pay the costs for the spells) and you can skill up that way. Also try and make it known you need parchments and what not and you can get those that way as well.

PS if you do not already have your trophy stop and do that now.

[Voragath]

Lol. Expensive? NO. The only expense I incur is the price of buying the drop from greedy bazaar vendors--you know, the ones that farm a drop to get a hoard of it, then only sell 2 or 3 at sky high markup? And look at the finished product versus the actual spell. I bet you can make the spell for 1/4 the cost that peeps sell the spell for. This is the upside: the dropped component is much more common than the old garbage ever was. I'd wait MONTHS for a research_page_xxx_right for my pet spell. Now, I just go to baz or vendor dive and get my spell in a day. Also, most anybody who is leveling in appropriate content will find the drop and cash in this game is far too easy with the outrageous value of vendor trash loot in TSS onward.

The new way is cheaper than the old way because sometimes my mage needed a drop for a lowbie spell that was used on an uber, say Cleric, spell and so would sell for 500-1k.

Note to those who hate the new system and feel like complaining here: The old system will not come back, so please quit whining about the new one. We've been hearing only a few people whine about it and almost the entire community loves it; even more importantly, Ngreth has already said the old is gone forever. If you don't like it and have given it a chance, please just stop researching and pay a guildie/friend/whatever to do it for you. I'm sorry, but that post sounded like a whine towards the end and whining is not productive.

[Whipcream]

I think I must have got the wrong point across. I am not debating if the new system is better whether you make your own Aqua Regia or not, my point was it is a money sink compared to the old system not matter what. Neither method of the new spell research seems cheaper than simply using the old spell research.

I am still trying to make Tepid Deeps and Strip Enchantment (level 22-23 spells) which I have old components for, but the new component is a Raw Fine Hide. I had already bought all the Tasarin's Grimoire and Velishoul's Tome I needed for no more than 20 plat each (old system). I am looking in the Xegony Bazaar right now, there is only 1 Raw Fine Hide for sale and it costs 899 plat. I have not found a Raw Fine Hide through vendor diving. Even if I fork out the cash for that Raw Fine Hide I could only make one of the spells (unless I fail combine) and then it's a wait and large cash sum for another Raw Fine Hide. Are the under50 research spells supposed to cost me 900 plat per component now? I know some of you say they are more common drops, but I am having a lot harder time finding the new components in the Bazaar than the old components. I guess I could go tear up the newbie zones until I fine a Raw Fine Hide, but I never had to do such a thing before.

That's just one example. Thankfully, I had already made most of the under60 Enchanter and Wizard spells I needed before the new research patch. But I don't see how anyone can say it's cheaper.

ALSO - and this is a big one for lowbie spells - nobody is making them anymore for sale in the Bazaar. Experienced researcher's would put together low level spells if they happens to find the components, and resell them for 50 - 100 plat. You find rune A and rune B... meh, why not put them together and sell them cheap for someone who needs it. The new system is a bunch of subcombines that are not worth the trouble for some cheap low level spell. Even if platinum is not a concern, it is still not worth the time. I know this because I used to do this. I know other researchers on Xegony who used to do this. Everyone I ask says they don't bother with it anymore. Nobody does it anymore.
Try finding a Wizard who is going to invest so much as a copper into an Al'Kabor spell.

Even if I find all the components on my own, it still going to cost me. Before it only cost me a few silver for a quill and piece of parchment (for +50 spells) and now I am throwing gems and gold bars into my spells.

It's cheaper for a few select spells that shared a single rare component, like Yaeth’s Compendium RightSide. Torment of Argli could never be researched because everyone would rather make Remove Greater Curse out of it. But that is only a few spells, that is not most of them.

Excuse me if this sounds like whining to you, but to me it's a legitimate problem. I am of the mind that if you are going to introduce a new system, you should make it better than the old system in every way you think you can. This new system seems of the logic that introduced a casino into ShadowHaven - put more platinum sinks into the game. Except this is a more "force you to use it" type of platinum sink. If a money sink wasn't the goal, then why is it not 1 dropped component plus 1 cheap researching thingamabob, like a vial of pure water?

Besides, I wouldn't ask that the old system be put back in place and remove the current system. I am more curious why they don't exist together. Has anyone got a good reason for that?

[Kross]

i agree with ya whipcream...

i have left my necros research at 230 something because of the price of this new system. going from using pages/words/runes (i've researched on a wizard, enchanter, and a necro twice to 200) i have a hard time with the new system. the prices of rare words/pages/runes were a bit high sometimes but nothing like the new system costs.

way more complex with the number of subcombines, the bank space required, and the cost which doesn't seem to match other tradeskills in game. the only thing i think that was nice about the new system was the bulk combine recipes but even those are crazy. making items in bulk is normally preparation for a nice run at skill ups and what have you, but its not like that for research. uses a ton of the subcombines very fast but at the same time you'll have lots of left overs of other subcombines. now i don't expect to make 200 of each with 1 click and have exact amounts for skilling up but come on lol...

anyhow, i have hoarded a ton of the parchments (and words that i need to vendor now that i think of it) from a long time ago but after making some of those solutions the last time i worked on spell research i am not eager to dump the plat or the time into it again.

[Voragath]

Everybody can research everybody's spell. You may be running into a server specific problem. What level and class are you? As a level 50 mage I was destroying that mountain in Rathe Mountains with the giants and making 1kpp doing so. What server are you on? On my server, 7th hammer, tons of researchers have popped up because of the popularity of the new research.

And, get your research up. Buy binding powders and make those clicky scrolls. That's cheap. Can make those for less than 20pp each unless you buy your powders in bazaar.

Bank space? I only have all the powders on hand, a few quills on hand, saltpeter/sulfur on hand, and make everything else. That's 3 bags max in use. The most expensive solution costs about 500 and that's level 70 spells. Every stationary under the sun is found in the bazaar on my server and usually run about 3k for the hardest to get. I think you all are looking at this the wrong way. I have yet to make a spell for more than 2k. I can make any spell I want at anytime. That means I can make those uber rare spells and sell for tons in bazaar. Lowbie spells I can make for just a few hundred pp. In tss zones, you can kill for 10 minutes and sell the trash loot for that much. Spells are no longer rare and that's the idea. And I KNOW you didn't fit ALL of your pages for EVERY spell in your bags before either. Also, I KNOW that most pages would sell for 1k that were in demand but far and few between so I don't buy your "it was cheaper" routine unless it is just server specific to you. Which, then, you should change servers. Research isn't about being a regular tradeskill, or making moola, it's about spell availability and logical ease of use.

[Flehmen]

Interestingly, I've made several 100k on the lowbie spells(LDoN), at least before everything else was converted over this last expansion. That would be several hundred spells sold, btw.

Long story short whipcream, your comparison is not valid. Raw fine hide are easily farmable at level 20-30 or so (I've a couple of stacks of 50 just from leveling 2 toons in the appropriate locations). Try farm "a page of impossible to find XX (right)" for 100 of em. <shrug> Cheaper by far since I can avoid the bazaar completely, make stacks of subcombines at once, and sell for a fairly decent profit of 10x to 50x the cost quickly and easily. Although the competition is increasing I suspect I'll be the last one standing as usual because people undersell their time and realize it isn't worth the effort they put in.

Kross, as far as the bank space and cost not matching other TS. I have bags and bags more space with the new research than I did before. The cost at high levels in research also seems cheaper than my experience in other tradeskills, at least considering the few vendor-dived components I've found...

[Gorse]

I definitely disagree with Whipcream here too. You give the examples of "free" for dropped components for old items, but now you want to pay outrageous bazaar prices to make the new ones. Apples do not equal oranges.

Either you want to put in the time to farm or you do not.

With the new system, like the old one, if you want to spend the time and farm the parts (saltpeter, crystallized sulfer, gem drops and hides/parchments/vellums/etc...) then you can make spells and skill up without spending a lot of plat.

If you choose to accelerate the process by wasting plat on vendors and traders, that is an option, but one you are chosing to do.

There are lots of upsides. Global drop components. Fewer dropped components (and they cover multiple spells). Vendors stock all but the components. Vendor option on solution components. Any class can make the spells.


What's the point of trying to be bitter and angry about the change? If it makes the game that much of a displeasure, please go find something else. Life is too short to get tied into knots over something this minor.


Gorse

[Whipcream]

So how come nobody has an answer to why the old and new system don't worth together? If you think the new system is the greatest thing since sliced bread, use it and be happy. If you think the old system is the light of your life, use it and be happy.

It would make sense to me. If you want to go the harder but cheaper route, you can use the old system. If you want to go the easier but expensive route, you can use the new system.

I can not think of a reason, nor have a read a reason from anyone here, to why both research systems at once would be a disadvantage.

What's the point of trying to be bitter and angry about the change? If it makes the game that much of a displeasure, please go find something else. Life is too short to get tied into knots over something this minor.

That last paragraph is Fanboi logic and contributes nothing. I could say the same thing to you...

What's the point of being a lemming and agreeing with everything SoE does? If a different opinion is that much of a displeasure, please go find something else. Life is to too short to be making caustic remarks to message boards posts that don't agree with everything you think.

[Flehmen]

Wow, talk about some kinda logic.

I can think of several reasons why the old system was removed, none of which you'll accept because of that bad old SoE.

Also, I would not call Gorse a SoE cheer leader.

Quite frankly, you made unsubstantiated claims about farming and cost, which were shown to be wrong. You were corrected and didn't like being corrected.

It is NOT more expensive, on average, to make the new spells. It is not harder to farm the stuff, except maybe in the bazaar.

[Gorse]

What the last paragraph meant, was exactly what it said with no other purpose meant. If your hand hurts when you hit it with a hammer, stop hitting it with a hammer. If you are not happy, find something that does make you happy.



Gorse

[Voragath]

I'm looking at bazaar right now. 7th Hammer, 1 AM EST. Raw Fine Hide 100pp. I see this on vendors all the time. Does Xegony have a lower population or a lower lowbie populace? I could see where FV would have some problems with research but a normal server? Not to mention, this stuff drops like crazy in the Moors. If your research is 150 something, then you should be able to wipe these mobs. Heck, look on the moors vendors which is where I go to find these comps. I also check out the CR vendors. I find at least one hide just using my CR stick and then running to the Mesa, killing mobs on the fly and stopping at vendors. Granted, a zone of similar level mobs from an era before TSS would be easier to farm this stuff.

Again, look at it differently. I can make all my spells cheaper than before. The fact that I can make more than can be farmed makes me out compete the spell farmers. I can easily sell a spell for twice what I pay to make it and can squeeze by for selling it at 4 times the cost and still undersell the spell farmers.

Just looking on this site and using your raw fine hide example: if I bought the raw fine hide in my baz and make a spell, the cost is ~110pp; if I spend 10 min looking or farming it, I can make the spell for ~10pp. You could easily sell some of those spells for a few hundred pp. The problem I see is that anyone can, for free using the CR ts quest people, get their research up to 52. Throw in the research trophy before you get started and anyone can easily make this combine and the resulting spells so there conceivably would be no market for this. As is in any tradeskill, the market opens up at higher levels for several reasons. You can turn a small profit at lower levels but higher levels allow for higher profit. A good tradeskiller keeps their eyes open for bargains or farms their stuff.

Besides, they couldn't make the old way work so that you as, say a mage, could research necro spells; this resulted in a bottleneck with spells. If you want to research other classes, a new code has to be implemented; so that is what happened. Sorry about your luck and I feel for you having bought all those components but sony has a live webpage where such things are discussed to avoid this very scenario.