Spell Research in SoF

[Danedori]

I think there are a couple considerations here. First, making omens spells researchable happened when there were spells to replace them. Specifically when these spells were vendor purchased anyway. It would seem kind of silly to be able to buy a level 72 nuke and not be able to get the outdated 70 nuke because you need a rune. Even moreso for it to be easier for a level 75 character to get his/her spells than a level 70 character, which makes sense.

Second, aside from the fact that the new spells will almost certainly outdate the 71-75 spells, the rank one of these spells is buyable, so why not make rank two researchable if there is so little difference in the spells and when most will become obsolete to players over 75?

There have been 3 times in the history of EQ that the level cap has increased making dropped spells (somewhat) obsolete. When PoP came out, Kunark spells were no longer the highest level, but Kunark spells didn't become researchable until LoY. When OoW came out, PoP spells were no longer the highest level, but they didn't become researchable until DoDh. When TSS came out, OoW spells became researchable immediately.

So, only 1 out of the 3 times did the spells become researchable at the same time as the level increase. Saying that it should be immediate because that's the way it was in the past is not a completely valid argument. Most history on this subject points in the other direction.

Danedori

[olhoss]

but the most recent history is the 1 in 3.

On top of which, the way expansions are done and released is different now. The way spells are acquired is different now.

PoP spells were only acquired as drops, so it took longer for previous spells to become "obsolete". The same with older spells when LoY came out, etc.

In addition, making the rank 2 available in SoF is not as big a deal, since the spells they would be making available through research are only a minor upgrade to the ones available from the vendor.

While I am among those who would like to see rank 3 researchable, I agree that these should not be available by SoF, but I think my reasoning is still sound.

[Kadath]

With a year from SoF to the next expansion, there will be a need for more research before then. I'd hope at least for DoD and PoR spells to be researchable asap; they are already very hard to get groups for.

[Catweazel]

Perhaps someone can help me with an analogy with melee here?

I am using a set of weapons which were top of the game in OOW. They have now been updated and replaced over many expansions, but I still cannot make them using Tradeskills. The weapons available on Katta merchants are almost as good as my OOW weapons. Replacing my weapons will require access to a raid zone including flagging.

Why should Rank3 spells, available from a raid zone just 2(1) expansions ago be made researchable at all?

Why should the last expansions spells be researchable in the next expansion?

I guess I am asking why should casters main form of damage (attack/defense/buffs) be researchable so quickly when melee cannot tradeskill anything closely resembling weapon damage from 5 expansions ago? I don't play a caster so excuse my ignorance.

[Qaladar Bragollach]

I dont care about TSS spells becoming researchable. However I am very dissappointed that DoDh spells won't be researchable. The comparison to melee weapons fails because every better weapon you get is a direct upgrade to a previous one. That is not true for spells.

[Catweazel]

The comparison to melee weapons fails because every better weapon you get is a direct upgrade to a previous one. That is not true for spells.

I don't understand your logic.

Spells are not upgraded (as in they add capabilities which the previous version did not have) from one level to the next?

[Qaladar Bragollach]

No, not all of them.

Some spell lines do not get upgraded.

In addition some DoDh and PoR spells add functionality to a class that they did not have before. See shamans and group heal. Without that specific spell they lack the ability to do that.

Not like weapons where every weapon in the game does exactly the same thing. Just the better ones get better and better at that one thing.

Edit: Yes I realize there is a tbs group heal for shamans so bad example, but how long was it between PoR and TBS, a year or so?

[Eanelder]

Spells are not upgraded (as in they add capabilities which the previous version did not have) from one level to the next?

Yes, most spells are upgrades of a previous versions, but some of ther first in the series, as is much the case with DoDh spells.

But no you cant compare spells to weapons, if you did, Id have to bring up the fact that i havent upgraded my primary since OoW , 3(?) years ago.

[olhoss]

While I know it can be hard to find a group willing to do the quests for DoD and PoR spells, these quests become more trivial as time passes and new levels/AA/Spells are available. The 70 arc used to be really scary, and 69.4 was really difficult. Now not so. Thus I can understand them leaving these alone.

However....

Like other "older" spells..these seem to have been replaced by vendor buyable spells at higher levels, so their being "obsolete" should lend them to being researchable.

[Oymentrubel]

So all my cleansed spell scrolls will become unusable after SoF ?

Actually, your cleaned spell scrolls will have more use since they can be used to make any research spell of their appropriate level.

[Roanne]

They arent "obsolete" to my level 68, 69, and 70 alts and since I cant get the missions with just two boxes and can pretty much count out actually doing the missions as originally intended without calling in special favors to revisit old content, I'll just press on past without them.

I see no reason recipes for DoD and PoR spells shouldnt be added with the new expansion. Once new zones and levels are added, these expansions will become even more barren than they already are. No matter how trivial the content becomes because of gear and level increases, the 3 character minimum for instances locks me out.

Short of fulfilling a sense of entitlement by having a full spell book, I can live without the spells. But I still want them.

[Ngreth Thergn]

I see no reason recipes for DoD and PoR spells shouldnt be added with the new expansion.

Time.

Spell research got the most (outside of cultural) that anyone got this expansion... nearly 1000 recipes. I just do not have time to do more.

[Eanelder]

Time.

Spell research got the most (outside of cultural) that anyone got this expansion... nearly 1000 recipes. I just do not have time to do more.

Woah!! .... is that the ONLY reason ?

Could it be the Quested != Researchable rule is waning

[olhoss]

Also, does this mean that TSS spells are definitely NOT researchable in SoF?

[Maevenniia]

Also, does this mean that TSS spells are definitely NOT researchable in SoF?

yes, since that expansion comes after DoDh and PoR, and Ngreth has explicitly stated he was only able to add the ~1000 recipes to replaace the old-style ("classic") research (that uses words, pages, runes, mist of povar, etc)