is there a cost effective way to do 200 plus

[Devilcharm]

All races = 0-222 smithing in less then ~16k assuming you buy all the velium and start the enchanted velium bits from the bazaar at around the 170 mark (non-farmed in other words) and if you get your first 54 points in Abysmal Sea. While your on the subject of a good idea to farm things. 223-268 smithing making shadowscream for ~5K pp as you need to farm most of it. If you go stickles from 269-300 your talking less then 120K in cost of materials. Then you can even sell the stickles in the bazaar for 250 plat on a regular basis and only lose ~1/3 of your cost, so your only talking an 80k investment making those. A grand total of mastering smithing 100K. If you want to burn a little bit of plat for faster skill-ups, you can do DoN cultural instead of stickles.

It is well documented on how to master JC as almost everyone does it. My mage got from 0-289 in just 88K plat as most cost is made back up right there at the vendor. He has not mastered it yet however, from 289 I seen no point in furthering it other then augment cuts for other people and is now a 294 JC'er. If I were to push to 300, it still would not cost a whole lot more.

So basically 2 tradeskills mastered, less then 200K. I am still scratching my head on how research will cost less and I am over exagerating. You make solutions to 243 from the posters 210 skill as originally said, maybe to a few spell combines that trivial at the 231 mark. Solutions skill-up rate is indeed lower then making actual spells, so you end up needing to make tons more solutions then making old world spells, where unless you are one heck of a patient farmer (in the 4 month plus area) you need to buy the pages from the bazaar. Those pages will cost a lot and are not always available. Your return on making the newer spells will undoubably come back over a long period of time... in essence making it cheaper then the other 2. But your talking about a return far down the road.

Now lets see the immediate cost of making 1 runic parchment solution (prices will be rounded up or down to the nearest platinum value based on the price of 1).

Star Ruby x 1 = 68pp (farmable I suppose, I have seen a few of them drop here and there on a rare occasion while leveling 50-70)
Gold bar x 1 = 11pp
Platinum Bar x 1 = 105pp
Gnomish Heat Source x 3 = 3pp
Rock Salt = free WOOT!!!
Saltpeter x 4 = free or 25pp average bazaar price (free or 100pp).
Sulfur's x 1 = free or 20pp average bazaar price (free or 20pp).

At minimum if your successful on a combine your talking 190 plat per combine (added 3 more pp for the other stuffs, empty vials and whatnot) or 310pp if you buy the sulfur's and saltpeter's. Assuming your solution skill-up rate is like mine, 32 combines per 1 skill-up (on solutions, it is lower for spell's, like 1 skill up every 17-20 spells) from a skill of 210 to 243 your talking 200640 platinum doing solutions if you farm it all yourself. If you buy from the bazaar, your talking as high as 327360 Platinum. As you can see. BOTH routes = more expensive then smithing and JC combined.

I have been trying to sell my solutions below cost in the bazaar just to make some inventory room on the sheer amount I have made (and still have not hit the 243 mark). In the last 3 weeks I sold 1 runic solution, and 3 fine vellum ones, and most of the time I am the exclusive seller in the bazaar.
I suppose 8 months down the road after I use up all the solutions making parchments and selling the spells they make, I can break even at that point in time. But by then, smithing and JC will have made more platinum then research.

Now do not get me wrong, I love tradeskilling and do like research, I do plan on mastering it. But do not be fooled for one second, research put tailoring long and far into it's dust trail for skilling up. It is indeed far more expensive to get to 243 then it does mastering smithing and JC together. And so far, I have yet to make a spell that sells. I made at least 2 61 and 62 spells for every class that is researchable, but unlike the solutions where I managed to sell 4 of them, I have not sold a single spell yet. And as I pointed out, those above costs are from the posters 210 skill. Not starting from 0 (or 21 if you put the research points on, there is no Abysmal Spell Research quest )

For farming parchments since DoD came out, I farmed a total of 17 used parchments, a few all types of vellum, and like 8 runics. So the only real way I suppose to farm those parchments is to have your entire guild or friends do it for you, or you farm the bazaar.

[Zacatac]

I don't know where people get the idea that all tradeskills must have similiar cost values. . .

Research has been set to the "easist" to skill up on, per combine (that you can skill up on). This means the final combines needed will, overall, be less than any other tradeskill.

The reason reserach is set to the lowest. . .is because it's HARD TO DO!

Tailoring to 300 or Tinkering to 300 is also hard to do, but not as hard as research.

The fact is, on most servers, the level 63-65 spells do sell (61-62 don't sell much, as they are very easy to get). And you can make a viable product that people need.

But complaining about the cost is like complaining how hard it is to skill up on GM armor. There is a reason you can't just buy runic parchments off a vendor, they want it to be hard.

[Zacatac]

Oh, and DC, if you are 154 as your signature says, you shouldn't be doing runic parchment solutions right now anyway. Do the level 63 ones, which are cheaper and closer to your skill. And also, if you haven't already, get the Mastery-3 AA done.

Trivial 203 - Vellum Parchment solutions / Vellum Parchments
Trivial 216 – Fine Vellum Parchment solutions / Fine Vellum Parchments
Trivial 243 – Runic Parchment Solutions / Runic Parchments

[Wyvernwill]

Selling off any solutions 62+ is not generally the best idea, but thats because in the end, you'll have to go back and remake more anyway.

As much as I want to agree with your "cost analysis" the farming route does not factor in the part I pointed out... the fact that you make a LOT of money selling off the items for the other tradeskills. Heck, when farming Saltpeters alone, I have farmed 73 clockwork gnome bolts (according to my bazaar trader's logs). That doesn't include that I have four AAAA's made an in the bank, so that's pushing more along the lines of 100. Selling CGB alone at 7-10k each more than recovered any costs do skilling up Research.

Never mind the fact that I have sold off 400+ Coiled Springs, Steel Ball Bearings, Innovative Bolts/Gears, and also gotten a lot of Clockwork Carapaces and Knuckle Joints.

I have pulled in well over 1mpp farming for Spell research alone. The other thing I didn't mention is the fact that VT like gems (Diamonds, Blue Diamonds, Star Rubies, etc that dropped in my farming).

Compared to tailoring, farming that skill path (Human Masters) netted me no noticable gain. That changed with the shissar bloods added, but I'm already long since done with tailoring.

Smithing... didn't really do a cost effective way, MCS from 222 - 300. Shadowscream is a pain and wasn't worth my time to bother with it. That path, ended up in being 700k of pure loss due to tributing sickles instead of selling them.

Skilling up Spell Research is not out of line with most tradeskills, other than stupidly easy ones like Baking, Brewing, JC and Fletching where you are able to max, or nearly max them off of nothing but vendor purchased, cheap routes. (Cheap including selling the item back to the vendor) Generally cost per unit is under a 100pp loss.

[Devilcharm]

As I said in a different thread, my signature is in need of an update as the skills are old. Research is now at 218.
How I have 200 begging and also only level 35, was I died numerous times at level 38 trying to get to a camp to camp out as to loot a vital piece of gear, I dont remember how many times I died trying to get to it, needless to say it was a lot. During the time I was 38 before trying to get to the camp I used my GM points to get my begging maxxed.

Guess it is a crime to have an outdated sig, I'll see about updating it some time soon.
And no I am not trying to deswade people from research, but saying it costs less then smithing and JC together is purposturous. Skill ups are easier tho, most everything is vendor bought with very little farming, and what farming is needed is indeed an easy farm. Does not change the fact that is is still the most expensive tradeskill tho.

[Devilcharm]

Also while farming for other things like JC and smithing. In zones like Dranik's Scar, Bloodfields, Nobles Causeway, Wall of Slaughter. You can get both there, I have gotten so many of the "flow" augs to count. Cutting them into Radiant Cut has long since recouped the price of getting my JC to where it is at on my mage, and on most servers, radiant cut augs still sell for more then clockwork gnome bolts.
Also in most of those listed, magnetic armor drops quite often. So in addition to the MCS's, I was able to make magnetic armor even before DoN came out. Those sold for a nice chunk of cash, again paying for smithing quite easily.
And you say why bother with farming stuff for shadowscream... because it is a cheap and easy route to get smithing skill-ups. By the same token farming saltpeter's and sulfur's is easy and on a lot of them (namely the sulfur's), just like shadowscream armor, you dont get XP. So farming the stuff for shadowscream contradicts that farming is not worthwhile. Sounds like you want people to buy the stuff from the bazaar. Why I wonder? My guess is you found out how expensive research is and your trying to recoupe some of the costs. There maybe other reasons, but that sounds the most likely reason.

Now lets not forget some of the other stuffs that drop in those zones on where I got the augments and magnetic armors in. I have gotten roughly 52 slugworms, those still sell rugularly on all servers ~25K. At the time I was getting them they were higher tho, in the 40-80k range. I made a nice lump sum on those. I also managed to loot a few discordant scoriae's. Again those still sell for a nice sum of platinum, at the time they used to go for around ~200-500K, but have since dropped to the 60-100K mark. Then there are the fancier augments. Sodalites, Apatites, etc etc. I made a lot with those.

Now yes, there is research, I suppose when I have my skill ~260 range I can make those 63/64/65 spells that sell for around ~3-20k I can sell a total of around 30-80 spells to recoupe the price of research. Hell, I might even get to make some AAAA's with my gnome, or I can sell the stuff in the bazaar like you do. But selling stuff you farm does not even out the cost of research. All it does is provide water for the drain.

Skill-ups faster? As I said earlier, skill-ups are faster if you make spells, skill-up rate for making solutions is the same as any other tradeskill. Unless your gunna say the RNG was totally mean to me the entire way while nice to everyone else on solutions. I mean vendor bought stuff while the easiest to get skill-up stuffs on always had a slower skill-up rate. Take a look at brewing, while dirt cheap to master. You do countless more combines mastering it then say tailoring.

If one has the platinum like I do, there is nothing wrong with sinking your hard earned money like I am doing. Almost everything is there at the vendors so you dont have to travel much to get it skilled up. But solutions vs making spells is indeed slower on skill-ups.

Looking in the bazaar right now, there are a total of 24 used parchemtns. If I were to buy them all, I would be expecting 1 skill-up. Maybe 2 if the RNG decides to give me a treat. As I said, I got a total of 17 used parchemtns since DoDh came out. So if I were to buy those as farming is not really practicle for parchments (of any type, while they do indeep drop almost every day, they dont drop enough to really skill-up on, much like OoW augments for JC at the time) I would spend a total of 36235 to buy them out. If runic parments are your thing, right now there are 17 of them for sale. Ranging from 4-10k Again very expensive to skill-up on. But both are more expensive then making solutions which skill-up slower.

69.1 hard mission, which is a mission where I see the most parments drop for the timeframe it takes to complete (1 1/2 hours roughly) you see on average 3, sometimes more. Sometimes none at all. In stoneroot or the hive, you spend usually twice the amount of time to see the same amount of parchments, so your talking roughly 1000 spells from 243 to master if you farm them yourself, or 80 days of non-stop farming at 2 hours a day to therotically get enough of them to master the skill. That is unless of course you dont have your friends helping to get them, or you guild keeping them all. Odds are you would get so bored of farming them that you will be like most people, just give up in the 270 range because not only is the skill expensive, but not practicle to master.

As for selling the solutions, they are easy to make and right now I am certain I have more solutions then I will ever use in the next few months. While doing my own farming, I have 5 10 slot containers full of saltpeter and a few odd stacks, alas only like 4 stacks of sulfur I gotta log in my brothers toon more often to farm Ssra for scales on his tailoring and get sulfurs at the same time, XPing the twisted shank I farmed from Stoneroot needs some happening anyways. But I am just so sick of Ssra after farming enough scales to master 2 different races tailoring lmao. I could get them from The Deep to further my tinkering on yttrium ore, but sulfurs just dont drop often there :| But is does kill two birds with one stone, I get ore for tinkering and sulfur for research

[Bobaten]

People like to throw out that research is the easiest skill. It is of course, but most people overestimate its ease compared to tailoring and smithing. Research is difficulty 1, while tailoring and smithing are difficulty 2. So at first look, it appears that research is twice as easy. But these days, people doing tradeskills have high enough stats, that a difficulty 2 skill is practically the same as a difficulty 1 skill. Most skill ups are done on combines that have a 95% success rate. Most people doing tradeskills have over 215 in their primary stat. So for 95% of the combines, the skill up rate is the same. On failures of course, research pulls ahead, since 215 in int/wis is enough to make failing the same as succeeding. But since that only applies to 5% of the combines even with 215 int/wis, tailoring would be 2.5% harder than research. With higher stats, the difference shrinks even more, until they become even at when int/wis becomes 415.

And Devilcharm, you should expect to need over 4000 saltpeters to go from 243 to 300 (more than that if you research fine vellum and runic spells before 291). You will make MANY more solutions after 243 than you do before 243.

[Ngreth Thergn]

People like to throw out that research is the easiest skill. It is of course, but most people overestimate its ease compared to tailoring and smithing. Research is difficulty 1, while tailoring and smithing are difficulty 2. So at first look, it appears that research is twice as easy. But these days, people doing tradeskills have high enough stats, that a difficulty 2 skill is practically the same as a difficulty 1 skill. Most skill ups are done on combines that have a 95% success rate. Most people doing tradeskills have over 215 in their primary stat. So for 95% of the combines, the skill up rate is the same. On failures of course, research pulls ahead, since 215 in int/wis is enough to make failing the same as succeeding. But since that only applies to 5% of the combines even with 215 int/wis, tailoring would be 2.5% harder than research. With higher stats, the difference shrinks even more, until they become even at when int/wis becomes 415.

And Devilcharm, you should expect to need over 4000 saltpeters to go from 243 to 300 (more than that if you research fine vellum and runic spells before 291). You will make MANY more solutions after 243 than you do before 243.

I posted exact numbers in Artisan's way.

But roughly to get from 0 to 300 in research takes 470 less combines than 0 to 300 in tailoring.

so yes, not a huge difference, but a difference nonetheless (it is a rather large difference between Spell research and Fletching... but I forget, and I am not going to go look for my post )

I have considered putting acids on the vendor, but this would be save time/combines vs save money. They will be SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive to buy than to make. By a huge amount. on the order of 100X more expensive to buy from a vendor than to make it yourself.

[Brael]

I can't find the post in Artisan's Way where that comparison was made, I'm curious though, there are alot of tailoring skillup routes with varying degrees of skillups. Essentially the Masters and GM skillup bonuses. When making the comparison of leveling research vs tailoring were you taking into account that over 262 skill Masters armor is a higher skillup rate and that people can level their skill extremly fast using GM stuff? (I did 290-300 tailoring inside of a couple hours... using GM combines, 46 combines total).

[Qaladar Bragollach]

I skilled from 214 to 243 using only runic parchment solutions. I used them all up months ago and am only at 279. I buy any I see now at reasonable prices... if nothing else it keeps people out of my market. I think you'd be crazy to sell your solutions but people keep doing it and I keep buying them.

However I don't monkey around with lower level spells... I only make 65's for resale. I was profitable within 2 days of hitting 243. Since then my profits are in the 6 million pp range (I blew a lot of it on tailoring and smithing though).

[Zacatac]

I can't find the post in Artisan's Way where that comparison was made

Bottom of page 1 -
http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/...ssage.id=14593

[Bobaten]

Using the advanced calculator with a 255 int:
Research 0-300 2408 combines
Tailoring (following the Complete tradeskill guide 3.0 but skipping the freebie quest which adds a few hundred extra combines) 0-300 2529 combines

So at 255 int tailoring takes (on average)121 more combines (5%).
At 280 int it takes 102 more.
At 305 int it takes 83 more.
At 330 int it takes 64 more.
At 355 int it takes 45 more.
At 365 (max for a non spell caster) it takes 38 more.
At 415 (max for a caster class) they are even.

Difficulty 3 and 4 skills have not had their difficulty fully eroded by the higher stats, even if an extra 50 stat points are possible with the upcoming expansion, but difficulty 2 skills most certainly have.

[Brael]

Using the advanced calculator with a 255 int:
Research 0-300 2408 combines
Tailoring (following the Complete tradeskill guide 3.0 but skipping the freebie quest which adds a few hundred extra combines) 0-300 2529 combines

So at 255 int tailoring takes (on average)121 more combines (5%).
At 280 int it takes 102 more.
At 305 int it takes 83 more.
At 330 int it takes 64 more.
At 355 int it takes 45 more.
At 365 (max for a non spell caster) it takes 38 more.
At 415 (max for a caster class) they are even.

Difficulty 3 and 4 skills have not had their difficulty fully eroded by the higher stats, even if an extra 50 stat points are possible with the upcoming expansion, but difficulty 2 skills most certainly have.

How do they end up on combines if you assume cultural tailoring (master's armor) from 262 to 290 and GM tailoring (armor/symbols) from 290-300? With the +5 on masters and +10 on gm that should significantly lower the combines tailoring takes correct? You go from a 2.5% or whatever chance to skillup at 299 to a 12.5% chance.

[Bobaten]

At 255 Int:
252-290 doing master's armor would be 397 combines instead of 826 combines.
291-300 doing master's armor would be 129 instead of 349.
291-300 doing GM chest/legs (62% success cap) would be 91
291-300 doing GM wrists (88% success cap) would be 81.
Saving between 650-700 combines by doing DoN combines.
Higher Int drops the 291-300 numbers some more, though the bonus skill up chance somewhat overshadows this. So at 415 int, 252-290 should be 389(-8) and 291-300 doing any GM combine should take 77(-4 to -14) combines.
So using the DoN armor with 415 int could reduce the number of combines to take tailoring from 0-300 to as few as 1699 combines. You got lucky only needing 46 combines from 290-300, but I'm sure someone somewhere balanced you by needing 200+ .

[Devilcharm]

Well, I got tailoring knocked outta the way ...
Not quite... there is still my gnome rogue. 197 skill and rising fast, but I expect to hit a rock wall in the 270ish area... and not from a lack of plat, but from a lack of materials on server, I cant cheat and use shissar scales with him for tailoring as gnomes dont use them . At least in due time he'll have the expert artisan title, he only level 51 with like 37 AA's or something like that. I finally bought the first tanaan mastery AA earlier in the day. All other tradeskills are at 200 except smithing, which is at 277, his tinkering is decent too, 257 and a master poison maker