Make Practice Research Items Vendor Purchaseable

[Nirruden]

Want to make practice research viable and pull some money out of the economy at the same time?

Why have no spell reagent merchants sprung up to handle the demand of all the apprentice spellslingers who have a dire hunger for bat fur, bonechips, and so forth? Surely the magic guilds of the various towns would have identified this crippling resource shortage by now, if only in the interests of bilking the players of their hard-earned farming proceeds?

The solution?

Make the items required for practice reseach purchaseable from vendors.

Suggestion: Make practice research skill items required to make Azia/Beza runes purchaseable from vendors in the INT caster hometowns: Cabilis, Erudin, Ak'Anon, Neriak, Felwithe, Freeport, Qeynos, Paineel, Gukta/Grobb. (Alternatively: Add one merchant in PoK.) Make the prices reasonable, given that the combined, final practice runes have no resale value on the player market and no additional uses.

Please note: I'm not suggesting that the spell making components (words/pages/runes) be vendor sold, just practice research items (bat fur, bone chips, rawhide armor). The gems are already sold by vendors, all that is needed is to allow spellcasters to practice their research without wasting the rare components in order to simply improve skill.

The rationale for this is that research is pretty much a requirement for any INT caster. Unlike brewing, a tradeskill that's optional (no offense brewers - I am one) for all players, INT casters have a significant chunk of their class abilities unavailable to them in the mid-levels of the game unless they invest significant time and substantial money into raising their research skills. Even after spending hours farming the green-con mobs for the practice research items they need for skill increases, they still must seek out and buy the components needed to create the spell itself. This is particularly crippling for mages, who are often forced to use lower level spells in order to research the next "tier". (In other words, using level 12 pet spells as components in level 16 spells, as an example.) In some cases, that means using research to research the components used as sub-combines for the next spell in line. (Failures are particularly unpleasant - mages have been known to spontaneously combust after contemplating the cost of a few repeated failures on a very desirable spell.)

Making these practice components available on merchants would allow casters to invest their money (and remove it from the economy) in exchange for the opportunity to practice the skills they require to perform at the level they should. The current system merely moves money from one player to another within the economy.

It will permit them to save their harvested research components (words/pages/runes) for the time after they have spend a couple of hours contemplating the alchemical uses of bat fur. Much like brewing, skilling up itself should be a relatively easy process. Making the good items still requires a trip out to hunt down the good/rare components, but raising skill would become less a matter of random drops from very green-con foes, and more a matter of dedication to the skill.

Finally, it will help to reduce the painfully expensive mid-tier skillup paths for mages, by allowing them to raise their skills via practice research before attempting the painful sub-combines that will set them back a significant amount of earned platinum.

Comments? Criticisms?

[Arfyak Reflux]

Another Mages 2cp worth...

In many ways I like your idea. However, I foresee problems in game with vendors carrying permanently the items needed for the research rune combines.

The 1st problem I see is the fact that a lot of the items we use are also used in low level quests (eg bone chips). Having the components at vendor ‘X’ to turn in to quest NPC ‘Y’ may not be the best thing for the game (I like questing).

The 2nd problem is that on the mid-high practice runes some of the items involved are pricey beyond reason (eg FS weps purchased from vendors).

The 3rd is other items are part of tradeskills other than research (eg Brownie parts). Not necessarily a bad thing, but may not be what the dev's have in mind...

Most all of the items in question are regular vendor trash for anyway. Hunting Wisps can be a pain, but other than that, on an active server I have had no problem finding items to use from lowbie area/PoK vendors. It’s just a matter of doing a little vendor diving.

I would not mind seeing a skill up path with all the other class components out there (not necessarily the creation of another classes spell, but just a way to use them to skill up all the classes). Over the last four years I have been able to maintain a collection of all of the 49 and below spell components for all classes (Guild Research Banker), and most seem to just sit around never to be used.

ps With bone chips being on a vendor regularly; SK's, Necro's and good aligned players would be in heaven....

[Astroshak]

"ps With bone chips being on a vendor regularly; SK's, Necro's and good aligned players would be in heaven...."

I was going to say that would depend on the cost of the bone chips, then I rememberd that some meats are REAL cheap, and necros have an AA that converts meat to bones ...

[JMorgana]

Maybe the solution is to revamp practice research recipes so that the new components don't cause the complications that Arfyak mentions.

[Maevenniia]

Bone chips are regulary sold to merchants all the time, mostly (but not limited to ) newbie zones, plus they are very easy to hunt for (Kurn's Tower anyone?) - there is no need to make them an actual vendor-sold item, and as mentioned, it would trivialize some quests.

Almost everything is vendor-loot in fact, so if you want to buy your skill ups via making practice runes, you can. They remain dropped items so that those that CAN'T afford to buy everything or who enjoy doing it all themselves, have an option. No one promised it would be a convenient option.

Now, if I were an enterprising little newbie, I might start mass-producing practice runes for sale in the bazaar (starting with the Apprentice runes triv 41, probably.) Mages at least would jump at a chance to skip some of the more tedious serial-researching they have to do.

[Nirruden]

The 1st problem I see is the fact that a lot of the items we use are also used in low level quests (eg bone chips).

The 2nd problem is that on the mid-high practice runes some of the items involved are pricey beyond reason (eg FS weps purchased from vendors).

The 3rd is other items are part of tradeskills other than research (eg Brownie parts). Not necessarily a bad thing, but may not be what the dev's have in mind...

All of which could be solved, either by altering the recipes or by adding alternate paths to make the runes for practice, a new set of paths that are vendor purchaseable and not subject to the problems posed by multiple use items.

Most all of the items in question are regular vendor trash for anyway. Hunting Wisps can be a pain, but other than that, on an active server I have had no problem finding items to use from lowbie area/PoK vendors. It’s just a matter of doing a little vendor diving.

I used a mixture of vendor diving and purchases at a guildmaster to hit 200. Towards the end, I'd willingly vaporize my spell components repeatedly rather than try to farm the needed items for a practice rune - they were easier to come by, since they could be found in the bazaar relatively cheaply. Time > Plat.

Now, maybe things have improved on your server post merge, but most newbie zones are about as active as fish after a lightning strike on mine. It's not a question of difficulty in finding where they drop, or in killing the foes, but it's an unneeded timesink harvesting green mobs twice - first for the practice runes, and then again for the components.

It's not even remotely fun, IMHO.

Were this an optional skill (like perhaps something that added onto a caster's ability, rather than representing a large chunk of it) I might not mind it so much, but I'm raising several caster alts from newbiehood now, and I think the skill is quite a mess. It wasn't so bad when I could dump my training points into it and circumvent it, but it's looking like quite a nightmare to me now.

Tailoring is optional - one can vendor purchase armor for every slot.

Alchemy is mostly optional, and class limited... and one can still skillup quite well on vendor sold ingredients.

Research, not so much - many spells are research only, and both the skillup materials and the spell components must be farmed.

Why the difference for a skill that's not so optional?

I would not mind seeing a skill up path with all the other class components out there (not necessarily the creation of another classes spell, but just a way to use them to skill up all the classes). Over the last four years I have been able to maintain a collection of all of the 49 and below spell components for all classes (Guild Research Banker), and most seem to just sit around never to be used.

I manage the "Word Bank" for necromancers and mages in my guild. Towards the end, I'd vaporize anything I could get my hands on for a skillup. Mages don't get that lucky - they're buying spell scrolls from vendors as components for subcombines - often a couple levels deep, where one fizzle sends you back to square one, and the subcombines are not no-fail even when trivial. (I hope I needn't point out that this is not only a larger timesink for them, but also a larger plat sink as well.)

ps With bone chips being on a vendor regularly; SK's, Necro's and good aligned players would be in heaven....

With the Flesh to Bone AA, necromancers can already purchase an infinite supply of bone chips in Thurgadin, via the meat vendor. Buy stack, convert stack, lather, rinse, maim. This loophole already exists, because there are several places that sell meats, and thus the point is mostly moot.

Further, a high level necromancer can pillage Dulak for racial meats and cash, earning both bone chips and notable money at the same time. Lastly, bone chips aren't really the crux of the issue. I can take my necromancer to Kurns and wipe out a substantial portion of the entire zone with a few well placed PBAOE attacks.

The point is that a skill which is somewhat required for INT casters is more difficult and time consuming to acquire than it should be. Even if the items become purchaseable, it simply means that there will be more people able to be self-sufficient in combining their own words/runes/pages for spells. It doesn't give them the spells or even the components to make them, merely a skillup path that takes some of the sting out of acquiring your own class abilities at a level before they become obsolete. It's not about whether I can farm the items in record time with my 65th level character and hand them over to my newbie alts. True newbies can't do that, and I'm suggesting that it's not really a good system as is, because of that.

Are we all really so enamored of "the good ol' days" that we overlook how sick the system must appear to someone trying the game or the genre for the first time?

[Prelgor]

Alright, how about this. Make the practice research runes themselves vendor purchasable. Skip the bone chips and bat wings entirely. Just walk up to the vendor, buy the practice components, and do a single combine to attempt a skillup.

Now, for the commentary. The practice runes would have to be quite expensive. For balance, it should be cheaper in plat to either find or perhaps even vendor dive the components for the old pre-combines. This would approximate the old process of just dumping plat at the trainer. The major difference is that now you aren't limited to 5 skillups per level. GM researchers at level 16, with enough plat... (of course, that was unfair - you can have a GM smith at level 1 too, theoretically)

The broader question is, SHOULD we be able to do this? Tailoring and Smithing are harder to raise than, say, Brewing, but the products are certainly more worth having (perhaps arguably ). It is not enough to loot, say, Windstones and Acrylia, but you also need to have invested effort in your smithing skill to make spiffy armor out of them. Are rare spells spiffy enough to demand more effort than just dumping plat at a vendor? Or should pretty much everyone be able to get them for themselves with only the effort needed to farm the components?

I just sold a copy of Tepid Deeds in the Bazaar last night. This is an enchanter research-only spell, their slow upgrade (50% slow) at level 24. After investing considerable plat in raising my enchanter alt's research, I charged a premium price for the spell. (FYI, 171 Research atm, all gained AFTER the skill disappeared from trainers) The buyer, a 24 enchanter, sent me a tell grumbling about this. As I see it, the buyer is paying not only for the components, but also my time skilling up and scrounging the components. I was also the only one selling that spell at any price for several weeks running. He is free, and fully capable, to skill up himself, if he prefers... Is it wrong that he should have had to pay a premium for my willingness to do the legwork now required? If so, make skilling up less onerous.

[Oona Wynterbreeze]

I just sold a copy of Tepid Deeds in the Bazaar last night. This is an enchanter research-only spell, their slow upgrade (50% slow) at level 24. After investing considerable plat in raising my enchanter alt's research, I charged a premium price for the spell. (FYI, 171 Research atm, all gained AFTER the skill disappeared from trainers) The buyer, a 24 enchanter, sent me a tell grumbling about this. As I see it, the buyer is paying not only for the components, but also my time skilling up and scrounging the components. I was also the only one selling that spell at any price for several weeks running. He is free, and fully capable, to skill up himself, if he prefers... Is it wrong that he should have had to pay a premium for my willingness to do the legwork now required?

Depends on what you mean by a "premium" price. I have a 52 chanter and a 30 necro and my main issue with the research is that after scraping and scrounging to get rune components and maxing out your research for your level then scrapping and scrounging to get the pages or words or whatever there is a good chance you are still gonna fail because the spells you need for say, level 24, can not be trivialized until many levels later. And without certain spells for your level you are not very effective. I don't mind paying money so I don't have to wait til I'm say 28 to research my level 24 spells (didn't look up trivs, pull lvl 28 as an example), but I'm not paying 600pp for a lvl 24 spell. (someone wanted that much for one of my necro spells)
I try to keep my research maxxed out for my level and if I many multiple components so I can make more than one or two attempts I'll usually do the combines on my own, but if it's a much needed spell and I have the components for only one combine I either try to find someone to combine them for me, or save the components, buy the spell and then combine them lvls later when it's triv'd and put in on my trader (at a reasonable price) for the poor soul below my level.

[Prelgor]

Heh. I knew I'd get someone to say something. Nothing like stirring the pot.

Oona, remember that the level cap is now gone from Research. My chanter alt is only level 29, but his Research skill is over 170. I got this skill by vendor diving like crazy! (FYI, the vendors in the Gunthak lighthouse are a wonderful source for 44 and 49 combine materials, found all over LoY zones...) Now, I could do this in large part because my main bankrolled it, and I was willing to spend time vendordiving and playing other characters in the meanwhile. However, faded pages sell very cheap on vendors, and anyone can afford to buy those and just skill up on combine failures, if you have to.

Also, I'm increasingly of the opinion that the rare spells just aren't necessarily needed at the levels you get them. For example, I already had Tepid Deeds (24 ENC, 50% slow) sitting in the bank when I dinged 24. But I don't think I actually used it much until around level 28. It just wasn't efficient to blow that much mana on a slow most of the time (or perhaps I just wasn't in a group suited to it). A more difficult example is, say, mage pets. But at any level, there is at least one pet that's store bought. The mage either makes the spell, buys it, or learns the tactics needed for a different pet. There are a few missing necro pets, most notably the 24. Many necros just suffer through with their other spells and wait for a new pet at 29.

This means that research-only spells are like bonus power-ups, not standard features of the class. You really want them, but you can still do your job without having them right away. If you push yourself, you can hunt whites, get level appropriate drops, and hope to get your spells as a byproduct of normal play. Or, you can hunt blues, get lower level drops, and make spells for characters below you. This then fits into the current standard EQ bazaar twinkage formula: get rare drops to sell, sell 10 of them, buy 1 rare drop from a mob 10 levels higher.

It is this whole philosophy that must be reconsidered when we talk about making research easier. I don't have any problem with doing so, but I do think we should be aware of the depth of what we're discussing. Frankly, I'm not convinced it isn't wrong that my enchanter can research spells far beyond his abilty to cast...

Oh, and what I know set you off was the pricing. Yes, there are many insane prices in the bazaar. I'm fond of saying that bazaar prices are for units that HAVEN'T sold yet. FYI, my trader has listed the spells: Mesmerization (16 ENC, AE mez, 100p), Color Shift (20 ENC, PBAE stun, 50p), Tepid Deeds (24 ENC, 50% slow, 250 p), Harmshield (20 NEC/51 SHD, DA for necros, 200p), all of which have moved repeatedly at those prices on a well-populated server. If they hadn't sold, or if I had more (sane) competition, I would have had to lower the prices. The prices are on the high end of what I consider reasonable, given the value of the spell. I don't even bother to sell some other spells because of a glut of them on the market (can't even recoup what it cost me to buy the components from a vendor).

I'm not normally this right-wing. The bazaar warps my brain.

[Oona Wynterbreeze]

Oona, remember that the level cap is now gone from Research.

Umm... wow... no, I did not know that. So the (your lvl -15) x 5 formula is no longer in affect huh? Darn, and I thought I was pretty good at keeping abreast of these things.

Also, I'm increasingly of the opinion that the rare spells just aren't necessarily needed at the levels you get them.

I don't think ALL rare/researched spells are neccessary at the level you get them, for example the necro spell Voice Graft is a strictly entertainment value only spell, but there are a few that I'd really not have to wait for.

Oh, and what I know set you off was the pricing. Yes, there are many insane prices in the bazaar.

I wouldn't say it "set me off", but I just wanted to comment because what some people consider reasonable can vary greatly from others. Amazingly enough there are some people that are still starting fresh on this game that do not have the money to lay down 600pp+ for a say lvl 24 spell. But that point is pretty much mute now because I was basing that off of the fact that the research level was capped and you had a good chance of failing trying to make your own spells.

[Prelgor]

Umm... wow... no, I did not know that. So the (your lvl -15) x 5 formula is no longer in affect huh? Darn, and I thought I was pretty good at keeping abreast of these things.

Indeed, no. I think you still need to hit the proper level (16?) to turn the skill on. After that, you're free to skill up, like any other tradeskill.

I don't think ALL rare/researched spells are neccessary at the level you get them, for example the necro spell Voice Graft is a strictly entertainment value only spell, but there are a few that I'd really not have to wait for.

Most of them, you don't want to wait very long for. Tepid Deeds, for example, is not very far behind Clarity as class-defining for enchanters. I would maintain that, if you just never got those spells until the next spell level, you would get by OK. Of course, things like pet spells become obsolete after that time. That doesn't mean I wouldn't WANT the spells ASAP - that's exactly why I'm skilling up Research well in advance.

I wouldn't say it "set me off", but I just wanted to comment because what some people consider reasonable can vary greatly from others. Amazingly enough there are some people that are still starting fresh on this game that do not have the money to lay down 600pp+ for a say lvl 24 spell. But that point is pretty much mute now because I was basing that off of the fact that the research level was capped and you had a good chance of failing trying to make your own spells.

Heck, even if Research weren't capped, it's pretty tough for a hypothetical genuine newbie. You'd have the option to do what I did and vendordive to muscle up your research skill, but a newbie is unlikely to have that kind of spare cash. "Do I spend 20 plat on the possibility of a few skillups, or a new piece of gear?" New and shiny beats numbers on a page for most people. New Researchers are more likely to be constrained by how fast components drop from the mobs they kill. It's nice to have the cap lifted, but you still need to work to take advantage of it.

[Nirruden]

Alright, how about this. Make the practice research runes themselves vendor purchasable. Skip the bone chips and bat wings entirely. Just walk up to the vendor, buy the practice components, and do a single combine to attempt a skillup.

I don't have any issue with requiring subcombines in order to practice research. (Be that with Azia/Beza runes or to make spells). I do have an issue with specific subcombines in spell production combines (see Mage spell research) being out of whack. I'm not objectionable to having the practice research runes on vendors, but I note that pricing needs to be thought out very carefully. (ie: Practice Azia+Beza is not worth 30pp per attempt, even if Magi Azia+Beza might be.)

GM researchers at level 16, with enough plat... (of course, that was unfair - you can have a GM smith at level 1 too, theoretically) The broader question is, SHOULD we be able to do this?

I point out that with your remark about GM smiths at level 1, you've answered your own question. If I can GM brewing (250+) at level 1 without leaving PoK (easily done up to MHBs, as I recall - and if I allow for trips to Kaladim, easily to the point where KCs trivial) I see no reason why a skill that is MORE required for INT casters should not be moved to a more level playing field.

Are rare spells spiffy enough to demand more effort than just dumping plat at a vendor? Or should pretty much everyone be able to get them for themselves with only the effort needed to farm the components?

Many mid level spells are not regularly found as loot drops, while mid level armors (silk and steel) are. Dumping plat at the vendor never got you the spells you wanted - only the skill needed to ATTEMPT to combine the components once you found/bought them. Putting practice runes on a merchant doesn't give your poor enchanter price gouging victim a copy of Tepid Deeds, but he could use the runes to get the skill for himself as he levelled and then use his earned skill to provide himself with a copy once he acquired the components through drops.

(He could even buy the dropped components from you!)

Those who never want to bother with a tradeskill at all could dump 600pp and buy your copy of Tempid Deeds - this alteration doesn't eliminate the need for farming to get words/pages/runes, and it doesn't eliminate the ability of the uber-rich to dump plat for skill training. What it does do, is remove some of the onerous farming of greenies for practice research components. It removes some of the farming to raise a skill that's not as optional for INT casters as other tradeskills are for other classes. Shamans can raise alchemy skill on vendor-sold components in PoK. Why can wizards, enchanters, necromancers and mages not do likewise?

(snip tale of price gouging on a 24 enchanter spell in the bazaar and justification of same) Is it wrong that he should have had to pay a premium for my willingness to do the legwork now required? If so, make skilling up less onerous.

Given that you define the spell as "class-defining", I question the justification that it be available only through research. My understanding of tradeskills was that they were optional. Tailoring and smithing and brewing are optional - players serverwide could function reliably without these skills existing, because they could acquire drops or vendor purchased items.

Mid level spells - in particular ones like the one you mention, are simply not available without someone doing research. That's not optional - someone's gotta do a tradeskill, or the spell never exists in game. I'm not faulting your justification for the price you set - you're right, you did the legwork, now it's time you should get paid for it. Viva capitalism!

What I question is that this tradeskill, one so intrinsic to the INT caster classes is not optional, it is a requirement. Few, if any, true newbie enchanter can likely afford your 600pp spell. So, they goes to do legwork for a tradeskill... which is one of the game play functions that's supposed to be optional. In reworking research to be a "tradeskill", we've overlooked the fact that newbie characters who are NOT silk casters need not ever invest in a tradeskill or even purchase the products of same in order to operate the abilities of their class, thanks to the bazaar and tradeable loot drops.

...and none of this explains why some class-based skills have their components on vendors and others do not.

[Arfyak Reflux]

Any other suggestions for resolution...

I think we are moving away from what started this very good thread. The problem is apparent to us all. The question of what to do about it seems to, so far, only have three possible answers:

Nirrunden's suggestion of putting the original required items to create practice runes on vendors.

Mine of some how utilizing all the available research drops for practice.

And Prelgor's suggestion of putting the practice runes on vendor(s).

All are good suggestions. There are game issues no matter what choice is made (even none at all).

Out of the three, I think Preglor's idea would probable be the easiest for the Dev's to institute. Does anyone else have a suggestion on how to solve this?

[Saleani]

I personally doubt the devs will put the practice runes on vendors. It will return most of the way to being able to train in the skill at the guildmaster. They wanted that removed for some reason, and I don't think you're going to see it back in the game ever again. I'm glad the level cap is gone, it sure got annoying trying to find someone tradeskiller who still plays to make swatches for me.

My chanter has been making swatches for skill ups. I devoted my (retired since the AC nerf) monk to storing 0 weight research items.

The Tepid Deeds issue is somewhat sore with me. I spent 160pp on research items to make it, then noticed someone had several scrolls for sale for 10pp.

[Astroshak]

Simple solution :

Make all researchable 1-50 spells vendor bought.

This would eliminate the need for research entirely for the 1-50 crowd, and all 51+ researchable spells are also drops anyway, so there is another means of obtaining these spells.

Then add a trophy or something so that those who do go through the new pain (or the old check writing) experience of raising research don't do it entirely in vain. The ability to research PoP spells wouldn't hurt ... there's quite a few unavailable in the bazaar nowadays.