Apply Poison

[Ngreth Thergn]

I am bringing this here second (I posted On Artisans Way first... and I would love the conversation to continue there are much as posible, but I understand that some people cannot get to those boards as easy as these) because I want a smaller group of Rogues first... and this is a good way to mostly catch Tradeskilling Rogues.

We are looking at detaching apply poison from sitting down.

We have two thoughts on this.

We can tie it to the rest state.
If you are in a state where you can "rest" you can apply poison.
If we do this we will be able to get away with flashier effects because it is not likely that poison will be used more than once during a single fight. We can make something big and flashy. We are not as worried about availability as this will have less overall effect on the DPS of the rogue.

Or

We can just tie it in to "Not attacking" As in you do not have autoattack or autofire going.
In this case you can do it more often, and may be able to do it multiple times in a fight.
But because of this we will have to tie it in carefully with the time it takes to apply the poison and balance it to the chance to fail to apply and the lost DPS and give a less flashy effect and only a small DPS increase over the "lost" time. Or if it give some other effect a posible DPS decrease to go with the extra effect. We would also have to worry more about the availability. since this is more likely to effect overall DPS... we don't want it so common that it just turns into a boost to DPS that all rogues get with little extra effort.

So what do you think?

[Chick-in-chainmail]

re-apply poison

Rather not have flashy effects imo. I have the effects turned way down when grouping or raiding, otherwise 1. can't see target 2. lags so bad I can't move.
Now with the 'rest state' stuff, how would that be in 'raid' zones? where you have the extra timer to wait through? (like in hate, not in raid but still have the raid down timer.
As it is I almost never get to put poison on. In fast action the slow apply means no time for a little more dps, unless your using the proc buff type poisons if you have them.
Group members sometimes tend to get a bit grumpy with the rogue sitting on her rump like a caster
So to answer your question, I would rather see it as not attacking. Then we rogues could tailer apply the poisons to the mob we are fighting during the fight. And please NOT sitting I hate being called a caster

[Ngreth Thergn]

by "Flashy" I did not mean graphically ... I meant.

Say apply is 5 seconds (I still have to research that)

so to apply you looks 5 seconds of DPS.

say dps is 500

that is 2500 dps lost...

so "non" flashy would be say 2600 DD poison.

"Flashy" would be 5000 DD poison

So if we are just going on :not attacking: I can;t add much, because the player can theoretically do it multiple times an encounter.

with the rest... it is more likely just ONE per encounter... so I can make one big "bang" with confidence that it will not grossly affect DPS

[Chick-in-chainmail]

Ah I see. Still rather have the non flashy, so I can apply a posion to match the mob that is in camp.
Also can see an argo problem with a massive nuke poison. Since it normally proc's soon into the fight thats alot of argo (and yes i know about evade lol).
Guess I look at poisons as being a tool per incounter not just dps. Like got a caster, poison that will drain mana, or if you got a runner use a snare poison, or needing a mob slowed, that sorta thing.
I would go with utillity before flash bang, but OMV as to whom you ask. Just my 2 cents.

[KyrosKrane]

Mostly for convenience, here's a link to the other thread.

[Brogett]

I've generally always viewed poisons more to be utility things than DPS, but that's partly because these days the DPS component is pitiful while a snare is still a snare and is as useful as it always was.

As we know there are two style of poisons - single shot and proc-buffed. Single shot have a use as sometimes you want to be sure that the poison will indeed fire off on the first swing. Whether it lands is an entirely different issue. These are vital to the soloing rogue trying to do the impossible - waiting on a proc to land is just too random. The biggest problems by far with these "old-world" poisons currently though is that they're *extremely* time consuming to farm and every dose takes up an inventory slot.

Then there's the day to day click-and-forget PoP era stuff. They stay up for a defined time and proc at random. They can have some very useful utility too - snares, and stuns to interrupt CHing mobs (there's nothing worse than not quite having enough dps to kill a mob while it's chain CHing). They can be made into 10-dose vials via a quest. I'd say that maybe the quest should be upgraded to allow 20 or 50-dose versions and let every rogue handle 5-dose ones.

So putting this into a direct answer to your question, for single-shot poisons that fire on the first hit I'm happy with only being able to apply at the start of the fight as we have (and hopefully continue to have) another style of poison to cover the "during fight" scenario. I'd say though that tying them only to the ooc regen flag would mean they become no use at all during XP groups. Fine for soloing that mean boss, but little else. Would you consider moving it to the same flag as razorarc and stealthy getaway usage? It's also important then that applying a poison doesn't break hide. This does mean that you could drop into hide and try applying again, but it's a sufficiently long time the poison would have to be godly to make it worth while.

Alternatively maybe just have it so that poisons can be applied when in ooc regen mode or also during the timer mode, but not actually when in combat. That means we can apply out of fights, but don't have to wait so long (5 mins in some cases).

Brogett

[Pootle]

Is this a 'one or the other' type deal? Because the way I see it is Poisons are a tool that a Rog uses as each different situation arises.

If it was up to me, I would split poisons into two types where you utilised both current ingame systems.

Flashy!
Oldworld style... need to sit (be resting), one shot deal... Not only have the big DD poison, but maybe things like a hard to resist slow (but also hard to make or rare components). These could be powerfull poisons a Rog keeps back (due to cost/rarity) for those 'special' occasions when it is really needed.

The Rog would have to prepare ahead of time to use these or risk loosing out a large amount of DPS (in some situations it may be worth loosing out on that DPS, if a raid is going wrong and a 'flashy' slow or poison type tash is needed), and also the fact that they are harder to make etc, decide if it was worth using them.
(question, can you actually rest when on the hate list, ie. mid fight??)

Utility.
POP style! Come out of /attack mode and click to apply, these add a buff proc that will slightly increase DPS, or a lesser slow/snare/AC decrease whatever! These would be the more common components and be the main weapons in a Rogs poison range.


One thing I would rather not see is poisons becoming too powerfull so that every rog has to have them. Make them usefull, make them add some DPS, or give a 300poison Rog and 'edge' over other Rogs, but its a choice. Some people may not want to bother... and they shouldnt be underpowered for that choice.
Oh, maybe make Flashy poisons NoDrop and the Utility ones tradeable. That would give a bonus to those that worked on poison tradeskill, but still give those that didnt the abillity to use a class defining skill.

Personally I think 'Flashy' components should be NoDrop too, to avoid having farmers charging the earth for them, or non Rogs wanting loot rights so they can sell in Baz, or only rich players able to afford to buy them..... but this also raises the issue of lower lev Rogs not being able to get at them etc. (but thats another discussion)

Anyway an interesting topic....
BTW, I know here on EQTraders I am Pootle the Tradeskilling Druid (my first and still played character), but I am also known as Graypaw (a 66 Rog, 300 Poison skill) who is activly played.

[Scuzz Zilla]

I would definately go with the one time poison that requires you to be sitting to apply. on the go application of poison sounds good, but does not seem to match my idea of a Rogue.

Its been in my eyes if a rogue messed up on the ambush, then they are forked. sounds right, no?

[Reamas]

First Strike

I think they should keep the framework as they are.
Make the components buyable like alchemy. Make them not resisted on mobs like we are level 2 spell casters fighting level 70 mobs

Type 1-Sit and apply between mobs. When puller is pulling. It will be a nice 1 time per mob DD. Need to lower the sit time though and make it simpler. Click poinson then click weapon, done.

Type 2-Apply from potion belt, slows, snares dot's etc.

You would need to contact the "class balancing Devs" to se whats ok. From what i've read they want to give the rogue some utility.

Components are a waste of time too farm now.

[Artemisia]

I have a baby rogue, well she is 51 but also 3 years old, I dont get as much time to play her as I would like (people prefer my chanter or healer in groups)

But I would prefer a apply poison that I can apply at anytime, so not have to wait for the rest timer. In most cases I apply at beginning of fight and then not till the next mob is due, but there are situations when I do apply mid fight, even if rare.
To me applying poison is a 'combat ability' of sorts, it is something that is part of my fighting, so I rest timer doesnt seem to match this.

There are a lot of other comments in this thread about poison, and on some I'd like to reply/give my meaning.

Firstly please dont make poison ingredients rarer or more difficult to farm, as a rogue in a small guild I have a hard time as is to get some rarer ingredients, or some rogue quests (the scareling drop for multidose poison quest is completely out of reach for me ). This does not only apply to poison ingredients, but my baker is forced to do some 'raids' just to forage ingredients, or needs to buy for insane prices in bazaar.
It seems at a certain point I am forced to either group or raid to be able to get what I need for tradeskills, please remember no everyone is in a big/raiding guild or has guildies who are willingto sacrifice time to farm something for 1 person in a guild.

grrrrr *note to self do not write here with sound switched off this results in loss of lvl*

so now my lvl 50 rogue salutes you all and will go and mope in lobby

[Pootle]

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Firstly please dont make poison ingredients rarer or more difficult to farm, as a rogue in a small guild I have a hard time as is to get some rarer ingredients, or some rogue quests
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If this is in reference to my post, I was not suggesting that normal poison components become rarer or harder to get. My suggestion about rare components was only in relation to my ideas about more powerfull one shot poisons.

My thoughts on these were that the rarity or high cost of making them would balance out the fact that the poison created would be quite powerfull. The balance here being that a rog would have to make a very consious decision to use the poison as it may be days\weeks before he was able to make another.

Imagine a Poison that was a 10k Harm Touch... but a rog would have to farm for 10 hours to get the components.... What sort of situation would you decide to use it?
Maybe a critical raid is going bad... the MT and a few healers are dead... the rog would have to come out of combat and wait for rest state (loosing DPS) apply the poison, and STAB... Saves the Day!!!

But, what if the Poison didnt finish off the mob, the raid wipes... Rog has lost an extreamly valuable poison and has a lot of work ahead of him to make another....???

Like I said, it would be a tough call for a rog to use or not use something like this.

NOTE: I am not saying i think we should have a 10k HT Poison, or that a component should take 10hours to farm. I am just trying to make a point about balance here with high powered potions.

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Also in response to Artemisia, your scareling drop is from a zone that was created when the max level was 50. And i am sure its not completely out of reach for you. People still hunt in Fear for AON and other stuff, Keep an eye out for prople going and ask to join. The Rapier drops fairly often.

[Hiddo_TM]

The 'advanced' poisons are great, but far too unpredictable most times. The fact that they are 'stackable' is perhaps the best feature they posses. Most are well balanced regarding the availability of components to the 'flashiness' of the effects.

Old-world poisons are useless for anything except raising Apply Poison skill and perhaps a very few encounters where either the snare or the slow effects make a noticable impact.

For the future of poisons, I'd love to see a combination of what you have mentioned (as have a couple others). Have separate types of poisons that require different methods for application. Much like the strike disc is only usable once per encounter, make some poisons only applicable before getting on a mob's hate list. Others should be noticably less powerful, but be applicable during battle as long as the rogue isn't attacking (think Advanced poisons with their 'casting' times).

Rogues have already been slapped in the face when our DPS fell below that of comparably equipped/AA'd berserkers. I'm usually seeing around 1k dps on most raid targets, while comparable berserkers in guild are pushing to break the 2k mark. Anything to narrow that ridiculous gap would be well received. I'd be happy to donate my time to helping this effort, even. Find me on Drinal =)

[Twiddler]

Poison Wish List

Long time rogue...300 poison...yada yada yada...

Poison has been broken since Day 1. Poison should be applied to a weapon - not to a slot. I should be able to place (the tip of) Weapon 1 in Mortar and Pestle along with Poison Du Jour and hit combine. Voila! That weapon is either poisoned indefinately, for n number of procs, or once - forget the timer!

I hate the PoP "proc" poisons, that was a lazy implementation on SOEs part. If you are going to do anything, fix that aspect of poison first. The rest of it is all smoke and mirrors built on top of a poor implementation.

Hell, create a new aug slot if you have to to get the poison to "apply". Make this only work for new poisons (ones not yet in the game) so that all poisons from here on out work this way. Treat poison as a (temporary) augment, not a spell. This concept could be expanded much further.

Appreciate the interaction on these boards with the Devs...keep it up.../salute Ngreth...

[Ngreth Thergn]

Long time rogue...300 poison...yada yada yada...

Poison has been broken since Day 1. Poison should be applied to a weapon - not to a slot. I should be able to place (the tip of) Weapon 1 in Mortar and Pestle along with Poison Du Jour and hit combine. Voila! That weapon is either poisoned indefinately, for n number of procs, or once - forget the timer!

I hate the PoP "proc" poisons, that was a lazy implementation on SOEs part. If you are going to do anything, fix that aspect of poison first. The rest of it is all smoke and mirrors built on top of a poor implementation.

Hell, create a new aug slot if you have to to get the poison to "apply". Make this only work for new poisons (ones not yet in the game) so that all poisons from here on out work this way. Treat poison as a (temporary) augment, not a spell. This concept could be expanded much further.

Appreciate the interaction on these boards with the Devs...keep it up.../salute Ngreth...

While you can call it "lazy" in reality it comes up to "time" Sure, we could totally redo the way it works... the question is, is the time involved worth it or even available.

So, they (long before I worked for SOE) implemented something that WOULD work with the time available.

It is often more a balance of time available and what can be done than "being lazy"

[Strokker]

I have a baby rogue and have tried Make Poison this is just tought in all its entirety. First you have to skill up Make poison to be able to make the poisons, THEN you have to skill up apply poison to use it and third it has to hit. A tripple threat, to the player that is. You have sometimes hard to get items or items that are used in other trade skills <Nodding Blue Lilies> and costly ingredients to make or fail a poison that wont stack <something I wish they would do> then you risk losint the poison or poisoning yourself in the application and of course it may hit or miss the mob therefore it is gone if I understand poison right< which I may not here>. This is to me worse than Spell research and I thought I would try something to take a break from that monster only to grab the tail of a sleeping dragon...yeesh. Big guy, this is one real PITA on all sides yours and ours the users.

I would love for you to make it so that one can apply poison on the go to fit the situation or be able to apply poison to several weapons and then swap them OR to be able to apply poison to arrows now this is real world application here< > of course the longer a poison is applied to a weapon it will deteriorate in potentsy say 4 game days < if I understand it right this would equate a RL 24 hours> then the posion is no good and needs to be reapped.

Taking a note from real life poison that tribesmen use in jungles often is in a pouch or bottle and they apply it fairly wuickly for each shot of their arrows so there fore a stackable/potionbelt enabled would work. As to the Itallian Borgias style poisoned blade I am not so sure we have accurate info there but if I am correct the blade once poisoned is good for long periods before deterioration and also good for several uses. All this is just my rambling mind here, as to the FLashy or not issue I go for duration so not in my opinoin.

Good luck here and I probably wont post in make poison too often as I will be looking for a bit tamer tradeskill till my fractured mind heals or hides.