Unconfirmed? - Change in Merchant Buy Back ?

[Maevenniia]

Regarding unenchanted jewellery selling back to merchants for more than enchanted jewellery, look at it this way:

1) Non-enchanters now have the exact same advantage as Enchanters – ie: enchanters had it better because they lost less, or even came out a little ahead (while skilling up) Now all classes are even, in terms of skill up path costs. This is really not such a big loss (except to the mass producing exploiters), Enchanters are needed for almost every tradeskill, and still needed in order to produce jewellery a player wants & needs

2) Since it’s not profitable to enchant the metal because the merchant will pay less, there will no longer be tons of enchanted jewellery on merchants, which anyone with the plat to spare can buy. It’s possible the JC market may eventually recover, as resist jewellery will only be available from JCers who combine with enchanted metals, which they will only do for profit, not skillups. . Enchanted Jewellery will sell for more, but to players, not NPCs, and that’s as it should be.


3) Do you really want to have to do an extra step before combining, just for the sake of skillups? Now skilling up is less complicated, and can be faster, since you don’t have to take the time to enchant metals, regen mana, enchant metals, regen mana, etc This reduces the tedium of skilling up, Jcers may be losing a bit of cash now, but GMing JC has actually been made EASIER by requiring one less step. Non-enchanter JC tradeskillers will also save time as they won’t feel compelled to hunt down and harass enchanters to enchant metals for them, just so that they can lose the minimum cash possible in skilling up…now the best (economically speaking) skillup path is the non-enchanted jewellery.

Oh hey, look, that cloud has an (unenchanted) Silver Lining

I'm sorry for the honest JCers that they no longer can break even or profit during skillups but JC was an exception among tradeskills, and due to the few unethical exploiters the fix HAD to be done.

Those who sell plat for RL cash will have to find some other exploit, this one has been shut down. And they WILL find another one (probably already have) but their greed will eventually expose it and then SOE will plug that source up too.

[Iannyen]

enchanturz R teh sux00rz.

[Maevenniia]

I didn't say that

[Demasia]

Fascism targeting enchanters

It's supposed to be a social game, people are supposed to interact, so yes, chanters will now have to go out into the 'world' and xp & hope for tradeskill drops like everyone else.

Oh yeah, I forgot how many social skills are required for foraging, vendor mining and farming green zones.

The point is, people using macro-bots could do this indefinitely, generating millions of plat for sale on various auction sites. So the nerf was necessary, because the recently lowered failure rate for items that are extremely trivial coupled with lowered failure rate due to JCM3 = exploiter heaven.

This nerf was as neccessary and effective in combatting macro-bots as it would be to remove mobs from the game to stop the hunter bots.

JCM3 = Class Alternate Ability that is very costly and should derive benefits to anyone who invests in it.

Do you really want to have to do an extra step before combining, just for the sake of skillups?

The nerf was completely unrelated to skillups.

It’s possible the JC market may eventually recover, as resist jewellery will only be available from JCers who combine with enchanted metals, which they will only do for profit, not skillups.

There is no evidence to support this theory. In fact, one only has to look at combines like Ring of Valor and the Solstice Earring sub parts to effectively counter argue that premise.

Those who sell plat for RL cash will have to find some other exploit, this one has been shut down.

Nerfing a class advantage that was intentional to the game to address a behavior that is indirectly related is inexcusable and unjustifiable except for in the minds of those who have less than an objective view.

Such comments are inflammatory, and smack of SOE bashing. Let's keep it civil and not degenerate this into a rant.

Last I checked, the term "exploiter" was inflammatory and it was "rants" by non-enchanter JCers that resulted in this nerf. Are opposing views discouraged? Are we loyal subjects to SOE or paying consumers? I can see how the answers can vary depending upon the respondants objectivity of lack thereof in the matter.

[Laearya Lifeblood]

1-2k an hour....how bout people that macro'd it for over 100k/day. That's what causes problems, go to *************s and see how much plat is for sale on any given server there...This was something that needed to be fixed, and I'm very happy to see that it was

edit: sorry, I see that site gets edited out here

[Maevenniia]

Re: Fascism targeting enchanters

I am not bashing the Enchanter class, and I apologize if anything I said came across in that way. I love enchanters, have one myself, although I am not leveling very fast because I love my wizard more.

It’s not the class, it’s the people behind the toons. Unfortunately, the exploiters used Enchanters to take advantage of the profitable sellback price, because they HAD too, since only an Enchanter can enchant the metals.

If say there was an exploit that took advantage of a Wizard’s ability to imbue Fire Opals and resulted in huge profits, then I would have said “Wizard this” and “Wizard that” instead. And for the record, I did not approve of the Wizard Manaburn teams exploiting MB to farm for dragon loot (although I wish they hadn’t nerfed the crits too, MB was a cool “wow” spell.)

Originally posted by Demasia
This nerf was as neccessary and effective in combatting macro-bots as it would be to remove mobs from the game to stop the hunter bots.

Well, I think something should be done about the hunter-bots too. In fact, I’ve seen a thread on a class forum today (forget which forum, though) complaining that the guard camp in Old Sebilis has been nerfed. The bugs used to drop a sellable loot every time, usually a gem/ruby crown, but at minimum could be words or crystallized powder, and now some bugs drop nothing at all, so it’s not as cash-rich as it was. And people in that thread believed it was specifically to combat macro-bot hunters.

Originally posted by Demasia
The nerf was completely unrelated to skillups.

True, but wouldn’t you agree that the ‘best’ skill-up path is the one that involves the least effort at the least cost, in order to generate skillups? At least, that what all those guides that EQTC contributors have written try to strive for, although it get’s complicated when you look at skills like Tailoring or Smithing that rely on Cultural combines.

Given this premise, an Enchanter doesn’t have to waste mana and time enchanting metals anymore since they will get a better buy-back price from merchants for the products of their successful unenchanted skill up attempts. And by doing it this way at least non-chanters are on an equal footing as far as skilling up goes. Non-chanters still are at a disadvantage when it comes to combining for selling to players for profit, because non-chanters do not have the JCM3 AA skill to further reduce their chance of failure. JCM3 will usually only be achieved after JC has been GM’d, so has no bearing on skillups anyways.

Originally posted by Demasia
JCM3 = Class Alternate Ability that is very costly and should derive benefits to anyone who invests in it.
,snip. Nerfing a class advantage that was intentional to the game to address a behavior that is indirectly related is inexcusable and unjustifiable except for in the minds of those who have less than an objective view.

First, I mentioned JCM3 because any smart exploiter will surely have PL’d his chanter bot or bought one with JCM3, in order to further minimize their chances at failure and maximize their profits. (If thsi was an Alchemy exploit, I would fully expect smart exploiters to use Shamen with Alchemy Mastery to maximize profits...again not class bashing, just smart business sense)

Secondly, JCM3 still benefits Enchanters. This fix (it’s not a nerf) doesn’t remove the JCM3 benefit of reducing failure rates. No other class has an ability that decreases their chance of failure when making jewellery, so Enchanters still make the best Jewelcrafters. If someone has expensive/rare components (like the PoP or Cazicite items) and wants to hire a GM Jewelcrafter for a combine, who do you think they will approach first, the <insert any class including enchanter here> Gm Jewelcrafter without JCM3 or the Enchanter GM Jewelcrafter with JCM3 ?

Third, JCM3 might be a costly AA skill, but so is Manaburn. Neither AA skill is or was ever meant to be a free pass to unlimited, no-risk platinum. They came down hard on MB. In this case, JCM3 was just a means to an end, not the problem itself, so they fixed the sell-back price to combat exploiters. But if it makes enchanters happy I would see absolutely nothing wrong with increasing the enchanted jewellery sell-back price to be equal to or slightly above the one of unenchanted jewellery, as long as said price is less than the cost of the store bought components. Then the exploit would still be fixed, but perhaps enchanters would not feel as if they had been nerfed.

Originally posted by Demasia
Last I checked, the term "exploiter" was inflammatory and it was "rants" by non-enchanter JCers that resulted in this nerf. Are opposing views discouraged? Are we loyal subjects to SOE or paying consumers? I can see how the answers can vary depending upon the respondants objectivity of lack thereof in the matter.

Let me repeat this – I am not saying Enchanters are exploiters, I am saying the exploiters were using enchanter toons (in this instance). It’s NOT the class, it’s the people behind the toons that were mass-producing who are exploiters. That’s not inflammatory, it’s the simple truth.

You are entitled to your opinion, and opposing points of view are welcome, as long as discussions can be civil. I sympathize that you have lost a way to make plat in game, and that you feel your class has been diminished in some way.

But I don’t agree that enchanters have been diminished by this fix, and I don’t sympathize with anyone of any class who lost a source of RL income, sorry.

Guess we will have to agree to disagree, I call it a 'fix', you call it a 'nerf'.

[Axterix EnObelix]

Pfft. To suggest it was an exploitation that has existed since release is lacking in intellectual honesty and is insulting. This "fix" just made is so level 65 enchanters with JCM 3 have wasted their AA's unless they are in an elemental guild. Yay.

Oh, please. Many an enchanter got JCM for reasons besides silver jewelry. Reasons like PoP JC in general, CT stuff, and the component for the robe for the solstice earring. The reasons to get it are intact. We fail less. A lot less.

For those enchanters that got it so that they could exploit the ability to make trivial jewelry and sell it back to vendors for a profit, well, I have no sympathy.

[Masochist]

Well, are there any combines that still yield a small profit? I hate losing money

[Maevenniia]

Originally posted by Masochist
Well, are there any combines that still yield a small profit? I hate losing money

There may be, but I don't know of them and if SOE does they will be fixed. And even if I did know of one I wouldn't post it, or I'd be supplying a macro-er reading this thread a new source of income (while fellow tradeskillers are not evil exploiters, anyone can read these forums.)

The point of tradeskills is NOT to make combines that sell to NPCs for profits, its to make things PLAYERS will use. (yes, not every tradeskill recipe results in something players want, some are just there so people who tradeskil can skill up, or for variety, because some people actyally like making different things for fun.)

So, find some JC items that are in-demande by players, and sell those.


Good luck

[Katalaeia]

Given this premise, an Enchanter doesn’t have to waste mana and time enchanting metals anymore since they will get a better buy-back price from merchants for the products of their successful unenchanted skill up attempts. And by doing it this way at least non-chanters are on an equal footing as far as skilling up goes.

This is what it's all about. Now no matter who does the skilling up (provided cha/faction and whatnot are the same) it will cost each player roughly the same. This is FAIR. For those who are complaining about costs because there is no tiny profit per sellback, my main (Ranger) got her JC to 229 on less than 5kpp, with nothing enchanted. (I'm sorry, I didn't keep a log of it, was just skilling up for our buddy Aid Grimel. All unenchanted of course.)

If you're going to enchant an item to sell, I can't be alone when I figure the only reason for the enchant spells was to make items sellable to other players. You can still sell an enchanted item to a player, and in fact now are encouraged to do so, because that should bring a better price.

Enchanters already have an advantage in the JC field with their AAs. The only other mastery tradeskill AAs you see are Alchemy (available to shamen only) and Poison mastery (rogue only). In those cases it's class limited...but *any* class can do JC! I've always thought this a bit unfair (hey, I want my Fletching mastery then, since Rangers are the masters of bow use....give Warriors or Knights Smithing mastery since they're the big grizzly smithing types, etc etc) but since Enchanters can enchant metals I'm willing to concede the point. I even have an enchanter alt (who skilled up JC without a single enchant, because it took too long). I'm glad to see this secondary advantage taken away...high level enchanters with the right AAs just had it too good, and I know it was being macroed.

You can still make money. Just save dropped gems and combine them to sell. That eliminates the gem cost so you'll still net a nice profit, and it will sell for more than selling the gem to a vendor.

I will still take my materials for a Bloodmetal Earring to an Enchanter with JCM3 before trying it myself. Enchanters didn't lose any of their ground there.

Disclaimer: Not trying to offend any enchanters; just can't say I'm surprised that this finally happened, and didn't happen sooner. The nerf bat sucks, I hated it when it hit my Fletching sellbacks too. But they're right...it's not a nerf, it's a fix. Don't see why one class should have that kind of benefit over others on a tradeskill everyone can do, and now we're all on equal footing. Especially a tradeskill you can GM in one sitting without moving away from the merchants...I wish smithing was like that!

[Katalaeia]

Given this premise, an Enchanter doesn’t have to waste mana and time enchanting metals anymore since they will get a better buy-back price from merchants for the products of their successful unenchanted skill up attempts. And by doing it this way at least non-chanters are on an equal footing as far as skilling up goes.

This is what it's all about. Now no matter who does the skilling up (provided cha/faction and whatnot are the same) it will cost each player roughly the same. This is FAIR. For those who are complaining about costs because there is no tiny profit per sellback, my main (Ranger) got her JC to 229 on less than 5kpp, with nothing enchanted. (I'm sorry, I didn't keep a log of it, was just skilling up for our buddy Aid Grimel. All unenchanted of course.)

If you're going to enchant an item to sell, I can't be alone when I figure the only reason for the enchant spells was to make items sellable to other players. You can still sell an enchanted item to a player, and in fact now are encouraged to do so, because that should bring a better price.

Enchanters already have an advantage in the JC field with their AAs. The only other mastery tradeskill AAs you see are Alchemy (available to shamen only) and Poison mastery (rogue only). In those cases it's class limited...but *any* class can do JC! I've always thought this a bit unfair (hey, I want my Fletching mastery then, since Rangers are the masters of bow use....give Warriors or Knights Smithing mastery since they're the big grizzly smithing types, etc etc) but since Enchanters can enchant metals I'm willing to concede the point. I even have an enchanter alt (who skilled up JC without a single enchant, because it took too long). I'm glad to see this secondary advantage taken away...high level enchanters with the right AAs just had it too good, and I know it was being macroed.

You can still make money. Just save dropped gems and combine them to sell. That eliminates the gem cost so you'll still net a nice profit, and it will sell for more than selling the gem to a vendor.

I will still take my materials for a Bloodmetal Earring to an Enchanter with JCM3 before trying it myself. Enchanters didn't lose any of their ground there.

Disclaimer: Not trying to offend any enchanters; just can't say I'm surprised that this finally happened, and didn't happen sooner. The nerf bat sucks, I hated it when it hit my Fletching sellbacks too. But they're right...it's not a nerf, it's a fix. Don't see why one class should have that kind of benefit over others on a tradeskill everyone can do, and now we're all on equal footing. Especially a tradeskill you can GM in one sitting without moving away from the merchants...I wish smithing was like that!

[Astroshak]

Katalaeia, from what you say it would have made more sense for them to have made the enchanted jewelry sell at the same price as the unenchanted. From everything I've been hearing, the enchanted sells for less than the unenchanted.

[Demasia]

Class envy

Katalaeia, from what you say ...

It doesn't really matter. Some people say this nerf was good because of the macro exploits, but most are just happy that enchanters no longer enjoy this benefit over other classes in JCing. A benefit that has in fact existed for nearly 5 years. I suppose Baking, Alchemy and Brewing will be "fair" when every class can forage ad tailoring will be "fair" when every class can track.

This is no different than any other time a class is nerfed in that there is a certain type of person who finds joy in their own perceived balancing at the expense of others' losses. In the grand scheme of things, this really does only affect a few people who stole a few minutes here and there from their RL to do something productive with their characters in limited time frames. Considering what was nerfed has existed longer than some classes and races and even this forum, please save the arguement that other classes never had this option for the mirror.

Bugs are "fixed" and you can't credibly argue an intentional class benefit was a bug.

[Fonzerelli]

This is not a fix, this is just sonys way of combatting macroquest users who leave bots on 24/7 to macro plat using JC. Since sony is too lazy to try and stop 3rd party programs, and has virtually zero customer service to deal with /petitions, everyone who doesnt cheat gets screwed.

[Lothay]

This thread has become Sony-Bashing.

Closed.