Trivial vs. Skill required

[Iannyen]

This whole mess with an item being "trivial" (the term which came from the old old message one would get when one couldn't get any more skillups on it) has got me thinking that each item might have two numeric values assigned to it. One for the level at which you will stop recieving skill increases, and another for the skill required to lower the fail rate.

Take for example, silk swatches. No fail combine, low trivial.
Then look at leather padding. Still a low trivial (low 30's I think), but you can easily fail 50% of them at the trivial level.

Another odd example, I'm having a better success rate at non imbued HIE cultural armor at 193 skill (no, not the BD stuff) than I am at smithing the bricks into blocks, and blocks into sheets. Even though the armor is obviously a higher trivial than the subcombines.

Any thoughts?

[kiztent]

Re: Trivial vs. Skill required

Any thoughts?

No.

The high fail rate on low trivial items is well known. Check Zeralenn's success chart.

As for the number of failures on non-imbued... It's quite possible. The success rates on both will be high enough that RNG noise could cause that to happen. I bet if you actually checked your logs though, you might see something different.

[Calabar]

I have no concept of how the programming of this game is set up, but I agree that some items don’t seem to follow the same failure rate as other items. Pottery is a great example. The vast majority of failures, at least for me, come from firing the item and not from creating it. And firing has such a low trivial level that it’s almost laughable. The problem with such perceptions is they could be just that, perceptions. Anyone who’s spent any time working on trade skills knows how fickle the RNG can be. If I successfully make a stack of 20 casserole dishes, for example, and lose six of them when firing, is that an indication that something is screwy with firing items or is it just the RNG having a field day? I feel there’s something funky with the firing programming, as this sort of thing seems to happen to me fairly frequently, but then it could just be really bad luck with the RNG. *shrugs*

I’m at the point where I just don’t worry about it anymore. I assume I’ll lose a lot when firing items and deal with it. And who knows, the next patch could change everything. It’s happened many times before.

[Delfontes]

Easiest way to look at it for me without a formula...

If the trivial is under 100, get 30 over it to have a good chance of success.

If the trivial is over 100, just get to the trivial and you'll have a decent chance of success.

I believe anything you are at exact trivial under 70 or so fails 33% of the time on average (and could seem like 50 to the annoid person doing the combines).

[Iannyen]

I guess my big point of this was in reference to pottery, where, obviously, it wouldn't be fair to give 2 chances at a skillup on one item, so while the trivial for firing an Opal Stein, for example, might be 35 (making that up), the actual skill level it checks against for success would be 200ish. Which would result, obviously, in a higher rate of fail on a trivial item.

Take also, for example, JC items, and the JC skillup path which stays very close to trivial, but never goes over it, the failure rate for an item which is almost trivial due to a geerlok being equipped is lower all the way through the skill than some "mass produced" items required as a subcombine for a skill such as leather paddings, breakdown or combining of ore, etc. I even have a higher failure rate when brewign tempers that triv at 135 than when doing QAT's, which I am 26 points below trivial on.

We know a similar set of numeric checks occurrs in the Ethereal smithing items, where the item trivials at 212, but the crafter has to be 220 to even attempt to make the combine. THus, without the nifty girdle, or uber hammer with the 15% smithing mod, there is no way to gain a skillup on it. Just using that as an example of how 1 item uses 2 different sets of numbers to regulate attempts, successes, etc...

~~~~~~~~~~EXAMPLE~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I believe it works something like this:
Lets say I'm a 195 brewer, making something that for trivial concerns, trivials at 135, a temper for example.
Place items in container.
Click combine:
RNG checks against "Success value=200". Result: Item above skill level, ramdomize chance at success based on stardard factors including skill level and item success level, average airspeed of an unladen swallow, etc.. (whatever it uses). Result, (for example) temper failed.
RNG checks against "Skillup value = 135". Result: Item trivial value below crafters skill level, no chance of skillup.

Next, I try a Qeynos Afternoon Tea.
Place items in container.
Click combine:
RNG checks against "Success value= 120". Result: Item below skill level, ramdomize chance at success based on stardard factors including skill level and item success level, average airspeed of an unladen swallow, etc.. (whatever it uses). Result, (for example) You have fashioned something new.
RNG checks against "Skillup value = 226". Result: Item trivial above crafters skill level, randomize chance at skillup.

The above illustrates, hypothetically, how items that no longer grant skill increases can be designed to be harder to make than items that continue to grant skill increases.

Purely hypothetical, I know, but shucks...

[kiztent]

Take also, for example, JC items, and the JC skillup path which stays very close to trivial, but never goes over it, the failure rate for an item which is almost trivial due to a geerlok being equipped is lower all the way through the skill than some "mass produced" items required as a subcombine for a skill such as leather paddings, breakdown or combining of ore, etc.

OK. At 193 smithing with a geerlok, your chance to fail an item is exactly identical if the trivial is 212 or below. That chance is 5 percent. With the exception of the cloak and BP, all of the enchanted koada'dal is trivial at 207 or below. Therefore, you have the exact same chance to fail a brick to block combine as a helm. It's quite possible that you could fail more brick to block combines than helms without any special code involved.

I even have a higher failure rate when brewign tempers that triv at 135 than when doing QAT's, which I am 26 points below trivial on.

I don't believe this. Post logs please. Or at least sample sizes and success rates.

[Hibashira]

Another dead horse.

Zeralenn has a good formula on success vs trivial:

% Success = Your Skill - (Combine Trivial * 0.75) + 51.5

No there is no way to prove it but it is at least a good proximation on the fact that your success rate is still relatively low at trivial.

[Reflan]

Actually all you need is a geerlok to get skill ups on the ethereal bricks in smithing. I just did it last night. My smithing skill was 211 and I had a geerlok; my effective skill was 220 or over, thereby letting me get to 212 on the bricks.