Possible Cultural Armor Changes

[Ngreth Thergn]

Yet again I will say it.

Group 12's are out because this would nerf MORE people than would have been nerfed by adjusting the raid 12's like we wanted. Now everyone with just group will have to go get another rare to make another aug for every piece.

And selling them on a vendor is just a ridiculous idea.

Sorry I am done with this conversation. Chat all you want as long as you continue to be polite about it.

[Sorkin]

That's too bad

I wasn't suggesting nerfing anything. Right now sublime/elegant is approximately tier 3 SoF minus a focus/effect, with no way to upgrade it to tier 4 in the group game.

A tier 4 drop, or even using the currently dropping tier 4 essences to upgrade cultural to tier 4 level would make it a viable alternative to tier 2 + tier 3 steam core + tier 4 essence.

As it is, groupers have little interest in cultural because without a raid type 12, the other path (scratched hide+core+essence) ends up with a far superior piece of gear. Even the tier 3 level (scratched hide +core) is better than elegant/sublime because of the focii.

So long as tradeskilled gear remains a tier below groupable dropped gear, it won't attract much interest from the group game. Only the raiders with raid type 12s will be interested.

[KyrosKrane]

I think what Ngreth is saying is that a groupable type 12 would require an additional rare drop (either the tradeskill component or the type 12 aug itself). Since that makes tradeskill armor need three rare drops to be "complete" (base armor, sublime aug, type 12 aug), players would see this as a nerf even though it was something new and additional. Or maybe he meant it would require scaling down the base armor and sublime so that the addition of the type 12 aug would keep the armor balanced.

[Sorkin]

Hrmm...yeah the current armor should defineately not be scaled down. As it is it's subpar compared to tier 3 stuff. I forget the name of the itemization dev, but it seems like that individual is insistant that tradeskilled armor remain well below top tier groupable armor for some reason.

While I disagree with it, I can at least see the argument that currently, cultural doesn't require Crystallos flagging so the armor shouldn't be balanced against Crystallos gear, which is why I suggested using a Crys drop to upgrade it to that level.

With the current gear capped at tier 3, there's no reason for anyone to get it over the normal dropped gear which can be upgraded fairly easily to tier 4 once you get to Crys (requires only an Elder kill, not even a Squire kill.) I've had a full set of elegant brambleborn on my trader for over 6 months since someone ordered it from me then renegged. For most of that time, I've had it priced at or around 10k above the going rate for the exquisite marrow. No one has any interest at all unless they get a raid drop and can put in a bazu or LB to bring it up to Crystallos HP/mana. It goes outside the devs' intent, but is the only way right now to make that armor worthwhile.

A group type 12 stone handled similarly to raid type 12 stones but dropped from current group content, while keeping the current armor unchanged would keep tradeskilled armor a viable upgrade path.

I also doubt anyone would consider getting a new drop a "nerf." After a year, everyone will see it as a new option. If it's *only* a focus effect, with no AC/HP/mana then no one will use it, but if it has the 150 hp/mana to truely upgrade it to tier 4 crystallos level, there will be interest again. And again, SoD drops can be introduced as well.

However, if he's going to be forced to continue to balance it against tier 3 instead of tier 4, he's right, he should just leave it alone. It's not really worth the effort.

[Aldier]

While I disagree with it, I can at least see the argument that currently, cultural doesn't require Crystallos flagging so the armor shouldn't be balanced against Crystallos gear, which is why I suggested using a Crys drop to upgrade it to that level.

This exists. Well, it was mostly created but was accidently left out of the game for the past year. It is going live with the expansion. There is a book sold on the Crystallos faction suppliers (available at ally I believe) that is supposedly going to fit in the type 12 slot to bring the Elegant + Sublime up to the level of Crystallos gear.

I do not know if that means 1 essence or 4 essence, my guess is 1 essence.

I do not know what will be required to make them, I believe it will probably be an essence from Cryst (would make the most sense) as I don't think they will add another drop just for this.

I do not know if the Crystallos groupable type 12 will have a focus on it or not. I personally believe that if it does not have a focus, then it will be useless and no one will make them. I do not have any group armor from SoF that has required essences and all the cultural armor I have created has Serpent/Sunshard augs in them already and I do not think I will be making any more. The main separation between Crystallos essenced armor and steam cored armor compared with the cultural armor is the focus effect. That is what I am hoping the type 12 augs will provide, as well as stats to make it a viable alternative.

Ngreth posted in another thread here that the recipe book (blank atm) was fixed and the recipes were set to go live with the next patch.

[Abazagaroth]

I had to bother logging in just to reply to this thread.

Ngreth won't do anything but repeat the same thing over and over because he's flat out wrong. I don't know if he really believe what he is saying or its the party line he was given, but its demonstrably wrong.

Think about this for a moment.

He says group type 12s are "out" because it would "nerf" people? Doesn't even make sense. The only way it makes "sense" in any context is if he would only introduce type 12s at the expense of nerfing the armor or symbols.

Why? Doesn't make any sense. No one has asked for it. He the preferrable target for non-raid type 12 auged cultural is 10 ac and 75 hp more than what it is now, make a type 12 aug with those stats. There is no reason to make it 20 ac 150 hp and then take off 10 ac from the armor and 75 hp from the symbol.

This is his cultural armor debate derived double speak working. He calls things "nerfs" which aren't, says something is impossible because it will do something (when it won't), because he predicates his hypothesis on an un-needed change that is irrelevant.

He says we need time (and expansions) for raid and group content to "catch up" to where new cultural is alright, while ignoring that raid gear already blows cultural out of the water in SoF (so what exactly is it "catching up" to?) and that group gear already blows cultural out of the water for groupers. What he really means is that he wants the "average" raider and "average" grouper to progress far enough such that cultural is worse than that, so that he can then introduce more cultural that is underpowered for anyone that can use it.

Let's bottom line this.

Cultural is "overpowered" if you are in DoDH raid content. That's it. The drop rates of TSS/TBS essences *preclude* them being overpowered in such a way to effect the need for balance issues to be at the forefront of any new augs/symbols.

My guild has farmed TSS a lot. Not even counting the MANY molds that have gone to apps that have not made the vote, and aren't listed on our dkp thing anymore, we've had:

386 TSS armor molds drop
48 serpent's essence

Solteris is much worse, with sunshard as rare as hen's teeth while phosphenes drop like rain.

Faycite are not even worth discussion as they are terrible, much much MUCH worse than Tier 3 or Tier 4 raid gear you get from the same mobs (oh, and they aren't near as common as gyro cores and tier 4 essences).

This cultural "problem" is due to the flood of components for a MONTH before SoF release and the stuff dropping from any zone from DoDH+ just about, when it was supposed to only come from tier 3+ SoF zones. People saw players in last bloods getting gear that was arguably as good as solteris, and freaked out. Now, no one cares, because the balance issue is a dead horse.

SoD has raid content *starting* at MMM level. That's 650-700 hp unaugged gear level. The whole raid aug argument is so far overblown at this point.

This really should boil down to the following:

Without a type 12 aug, is the gear where it should be for groupers?

If yes, no changes needed.

If no, add a type 12 aug series that brings it up to par *without modifying the aug/symbol*

This has nothing to do with raiders and raid augs. It doesn't "nerf" groupers. Cultural is underpowered trash without raid augs. It makes no sense that the intent was cultural drops from tier3+ zones when the gear from tier3+ zones is so much better.

Ngreth had multiple solutions to the "problem" handed to him in ways that wouldn't require nerfing anyone. He couldn't or wouldn't do what should or could have been done.

You know what? That's fine. Development dictates you don't make everyone happy and everything will not always be perfect. But this ridiculous stance he has taken since the debacle, where he continues to defend not doing anything to help groupers by recourse to odd and non-sensical scenarios needs to stop.

Just stop answering questions about it if you're going to insult our intelligence with such things, seriously. Stop with the chicken little stuff.

You want to know how the players view cultural? In TSS serpent's essences were valued highly, more than TSS armor molds. You know what happened once we were in solteris and we got sunshards? They went for 1/3rd dkp that TSS ones went for, because solteris was just as good or better gear for most people. And faycite will even go for less because every single one of us knows that its a dead end path both in terms of future upgrading AND the fact that its statistically inferior to stuff dropping from the same mobs.

I'm just tired of the complete nonsense excuses. No, you don't need to do ANYTHING to deal with balance to help groupers. Make type 12 augs inferior to the raid augs, that put the stats to slightly inferior to tier 4 sof gear, and make the component needed a rare drop from the same mobs that drop tier 4 essences. How is this hard?

Its funny, for those that may remember, Ngreth said *before* SoF beta, that the new cultural would be "the best gear for non-raiders". It wasn't. It could have been though, but it definitely should have been comparable.

[Abazagaroth]

This exists. Well, it was mostly created but was accidently left out of the game for the past year. It is going live with the expansion. There is a book sold on the Crystallos faction suppliers (available at ally I believe) that is supposedly going to fit in the type 12 slot to bring the Elegant + Sublime up to the level of Crystallos gear.

I do not know if that means 1 essence or 4 essence, my guess is 1 essence.

I do not know what will be required to make them, I believe it will probably be an essence from Cryst (would make the most sense) as I don't think they will add another drop just for this.

I do not know if the Crystallos groupable type 12 will have a focus on it or not. I personally believe that if it does not have a focus, then it will be useless and no one will make them. I do not have any group armor from SoF that has required essences and all the cultural armor I have created has Serpent/Sunshard augs in them already and I do not think I will be making any more. The main separation between Crystallos essenced armor and steam cored armor compared with the cultural armor is the focus effect. That is what I am hoping the type 12 augs will provide, as well as stats to make it a viable alternative.

Ngreth posted in another thread here that the recipe book (blank atm) was fixed and the recipes were set to go live with the next patch.

Unless Ngreth has changed his stance, he stated that the type 12 augs from crystallos would have no stats, only foci.

[KyrosKrane]

OK, this thread has unfortunately degenerated. We're rehashing discussions we've had repeatedly over the last year, and we're not going to get to anything productive or new here. Rather than risk people's tempers getting raised again, I'm going to close the thread.

If you wish to further discuss any of the topics raised in this thread other than last year's cultural issues, please start a new thread.